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After reading "First Heretic" (great read) a question comes to mind. We've consistently been told in the fluff that the Custodes are the best of the best of the Imperium's warriors - easily surpassing any of the Astartes. There are rumors and hints that the Custodes are Astartes equivalents derived directly from the God Emperor's genes. As usual we don't really have a good grasp of how lethal these guys are other than the Astartes respecting their talents and other people relaying to the reader - Custodes are awesome.

We can gather than the Cusodes are defnintely head and shoulders above an average Astartes by the few times we see them in direct combat - several times in First Heretic, Aquillon the Custodes defeats the protagonist Argel Tal in a matter of seconds. In the same book however when confronting Lorgar the Custodes in question knows without a doubt he does not stand a chance against a Primarch so they are somewhere in between.

At the end of the book the Custodes face of pack of possessed Marines. They are overwhelmed and killed but looking at a possessed Marine's stats they are not much better than an Astartes. So what can we infer and do other people have instances in the fluff that gives us a better idea of how good these guys are. I'm just wondering if their "Awesomeness" is more reputation than actual ability.

They're consistantly described as being better than Astartes so I'm not sure what your question is other than just looking for more background.

I'd say reputation. Spending more than a millennium guarding a half dead Emperor sort of makes the Custodes "out of touch" with warfare, if you get my drift. Note that I am talking about their ability to preform in an actual war here.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They're consistantly described as being better than Astartes so I'm not sure what your question is other than just looking for more background.

I'm not well versed in the fluff so I was hoping there was more on the Custodes out there that I could pick up or if at one point or another stats had been plublished for them. Sometimes you see and hear that this or that faction or unit is amazing and in another setting they don't impress too much. I felt that at least in First Heretic they were built up to be so amazing yet only to be killed in a battle with a squad of possessed marines which was kind of anti-climatic.

FourCartridge wrote:I'd say reputation. Spending more than a millennium guarding a half dead Emperor sort of makes the Custodes "out of touch" with warfare, if you get my drift. Note that I am talking about their ability to preform in an actual war here.

Read some of the Custodes fluff. They don't spend their time just guarding the Emperor. They're constantly fighting a variety of foes locally and even testing their skills against each other. (Blood Games short story, iirc.)

They may not be the best tacticians but they are superb fighters.

There are confusing statements about the custodes. Not necessarily contradictory, but just the typical tidibt of interesting and no explanation.. lol.


Forgive me I can't remember the book. It's in the heresy series though.




In First Heretic,

pretre wrote:

FourCartridge wrote:I'd say reputation. Spending more than a millennium guarding a half dead Emperor sort of makes the Custodes "out of touch" with warfare, if you get my drift. Note that I am talking about their ability to preform in an actual war here.

Read some of the Custodes fluff. They don't spend their time just guarding the Emperor. They're constantly fighting a variety of foes locally and even testing their skills against each other. (Blood Games short story, iirc.)

They may not be the best tacticians but they are superb fighters.

Uhlan wrote:There are confusing statements about the custodes. Not necessarily contradictory, but just the typical tidibt of interesting and no explanation.. lol.

In First Heretic,

Spoiler:

I think it's a Word Bearer who notices that the Custodes have a "flaw" in their fighting style. Being that they are far more individualistic, albeit superior in ability. The Word Bearer goes on to say that they, the Word bearers, are superior in combat as they fight as a unit.

This is what I meant. The Custodes are meant as bodyguards. They may be superior to Space Marines(this I cannot deny), but they're more tailored for bodyguard work. If they were forced into an outright war like the Space Marines and IG, they would be outmatched. The Custodes simply cannot cope with the chaos and randomness of war.

Custodes, for all intents and purposes, are effectively 'champions' of the Emperor. They fight best by themselves, and are in their element when facing an opponent on one-versus-one.

I know the TS are more psychically sensitive (not to mention their "flaw") than most other marines, but all marines exhibit enhanced psychic ability of some sort. At least above the human norm. What this says about the Custodes I don't know.

Bwuh? Marines don't "exhibit enhanced psychic ability of some sort". Very few of them do, in fact.

The ones who do exhibit any measurable amount of psychic talent are trained by the Librarium.

At the end of the book the Custodes face of pack of possessed Marines. They are overwhelmed and killed but looking at a possessed Marine's stats they are not much better than an Astartes. So what can we infer and do other people have instances in the fluff that gives us a better idea of how good these guys are. I'm just wondering if their "Awesomeness" is more reputation than actual ability.

"Looking at a possessed Marine's stats" won't really tell you anything. Game balance takes the front seat against fluff.

In the fluff, possessed Marines can shrug off direct hits from Destroyer Tank Hunters that the Imperial Guard can field while being able to fade themselves in and out of the Warp constantly, allowing them to close and rip that Destroyer open like it's a tin can.

In the game, possessed have to be killable and put into context of the rest of the stats out there.

Kanluwen wrote:Custodes, for all intents and purposes, are effectively 'champions' of the Emperor. They fight best by themselves, and are in their element when facing an opponent on one-versus-one.

I know the TS are more psychically sensitive (not to mention their "flaw") than most other marines, but all marines exhibit enhanced psychic ability of some sort. At least above the human norm. What this says about the Custodes I don't know.

Bwuh? Marines don't "exhibit enhanced psychic ability of some sort". Very few of them do, in fact.

The ones who do exhibit any measurable amount of psychic talent are trained by the Librarium.

"but all marines exhibit enhanced psychic ability of some sort. At least above the human norm."

I made this comment in the sense that a marines "senses", including the "sixth" one appears to be better than a normal human, that is, one that is NOT psychic. This is a misnomer, however, in that almost all humans (barring the "blanks") seem to have some sixth sense. They may not have visions or be able to blow fire-bolts out of their behinds, but they can "sense" things expressed as a feeling or maybe a dream. A marine in this sense would indeed have an enhanced sixth sense, they are not blanks after all.

Measurable psychic ability is the key here, ability being the operative word.

The Librarium I think understands this, marines are humans, have human traits except for fear (and lust?!?) as far as I know.

I think I have the fluff right. Who knows.

This is why I think Chaos has always found the humans so crunch-ily delicious.

Uhlan wrote:I made this comment in the sense that a marines "senses", including the "sixth" one appears to be better than a normal human, that is, one that is NOT psychic. This is a misnomer, however, in that almost all humans (barring the "blanks") seem to have some sixth sense. They may not have visions or be able to blow fire-bolts out of their behinds, but they can "sense" things expressed as a feeling or maybe a dream. A marine in this sense would indeed have an enhanced sixth sense, they are not blanks after all.

I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on the idea of the 'sixth sense'.

In 40k, it is always about psychic ability. Humans who are not psykers do not have it.

Blanks have psychic ability...it's just a weird variation of it wherein they seem to be able to 'blank' the abilities of psykers around them.

This is why I think Chaos has always found the humans so crunch-ily delicious.

Not really. It's the emotional imprint that humans leave upon their surroundings and within themselves that makes them so mmm mmm good.

Blanks do not have psychic ability! They are the antithesis of psykers. There are psykers who are dangerous to other psykers that variation is know as 'Psychic Nightmare".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Blanks do not have psychic ability! They are the antithesis of psykers. There are psykers who are dangerous to other psykers that variation is know as 'Psychic Nightmare".

You're confusing a 'blank' with a 'pariah'. Pariahs have no psychic ability, nor do they register at all within the Warp and they are far, far more uncomfortable for psykers to be around than Blanks(or as we saw them called in the Eisenhorn books "Untouchables").

'Blanks' however do exhibit what is classed as a latent psyker talent. The problem is that it's latent--they can't control it, they can't switch it off, they can't do anything about it.

'Psychic Nightmare' is nowhere near being anything like those two ideas.

They are pretty powerful.

Blanks and Pariahs, like KamikazeCanuck states, were completely devoid of Psychic attunement. Appearing like a sucking void to psykers.

Wasn't the strain created or thought to be created by the Necrons themselves?

One only needs to read the "Thousand Sons" to see what happens to Psykers who are kept from using their abilities. They feel lost, confused and "naked". I guess it's the way we might feel if we were to lose sight AND touch. What they would feel around a Pariah, or Blank I don't have anything to reference off the top of my head. Even normal marines were affected though.

In "Prospero Burns", a major thousand sons sorcerer manages to break into a custodes mind and to steal his combat capabilities. This sorcerer then grabs the custodes' halberd and starts a duel with Bjorn Fell Handed. From the description of the duel, it is clear that custodes fighting skills exceed by far those of an Astartes, especially when they fight with their favorite weapon, this power halberd. Bjorn only manages to secure a narrow victory thanks to his bestial ruthlessness and to the intervention of a third person. Moreover, he gets significantly wounded during this very short duel.

However, in a all-out war, would the astartes have the upper hand? I would say it would still be unlikely. In the description of the sacking of prospero later in the same book, custodes don't seem to experience any special difficulty in facing the TS.

One only needs to read the "Thousand Sons" to see what happens to Psykers who are kept from using their abilities. They feel lost, confused and "naked". I guess it's the way we might feel if we were to lose sight AND touch. What they would feel around a Pariah, or Blank I don't have anything to reference off the top of my head. Even normal marines were affected though.

Uh, of course the Marines were affected?

Pariahs exhibit a 'sense of discomfort' around them. It's got nothing to do with psyker ability or anything of that nature--it's simply a sense of 'wrongness'. It's like the feeling people report in supposedly haunted locations.

Once again: Blanks do exhibit a psyker talent. They still have a presence in the Warp, they can be possessed, etc. The only difference in Blanks/Untouchables compared to psykers/normal folk is simply that they project what is very similar to the 'Shadow in the Warp' that Tyranid Hive Fleets project.

The 'feeling' part is better explained in 'Xenos' when Eisenhorn first meets Bequin to be honest. Eisenhorn is a reaaaaaaaaaaally low-grade psyker, for all intents and purposes--he might as well be human. And even he's a bit put off by the aura she's radiating.

As for Pariahs being created by Necrons...it's a theory that GW likes to encourage.

Spoilers people SPOILERS!

Kanluwen wrote:

One only needs to read the "Thousand Sons" to see what happens to Psykers who are kept from using their abilities. They feel lost, confused and "naked". I guess it's the way we might feel if we were to lose sight AND touch. What they would feel around a Pariah, or Blank I don't have anything to reference off the top of my head. Even normal marines were affected though.

Uh, of course the Marines were affected?

Pariahs exhibit a 'sense of discomfort' around them. It's got nothing to do with psyker ability or anything of that nature--it's simply a sense of 'wrongness'. It's like the feeling people report in supposedly haunted locations.

Once again: Blanks do exhibit a psyker talent. They still have a presence in the Warp, they can be possessed, etc. The only difference in Blanks/Untouchables compared to psykers/normal folk is simply that they project what is very similar to the 'Shadow in the Warp' that Tyranid Hive Fleets project.

The 'feeling' part is better explained in 'Xenos' when Eisenhorn first meets Bequin to be honest. Eisenhorn is a reaaaaaaaaaaally low-grade psyker, for all intents and purposes--he might as well be human. And even he's a bit put off by the aura she's radiating.

As for Pariahs being created by Necrons...it's a theory that GW likes to encourage.

Hmm, my perception was that blanks are not psykers in any sense of the word. They have no psychic talent other than the ability to project "nothingness". This nothingness isn't a psychically created barrier, but the complete absence of a connection to the warp. Which by it's own nature become a barrier and, under the right conditions, could be used offensively. Like covering the psyker in an impermeable blanket causing psychic claustrophobia. This seems to me to be far more sinister a talent.

A blanks presence or "shadow" in the warp would be analogous to oil in water so-to-speak. They can be reflected in it, but they don't mix. Being that it is a shadow in the warp, a place the warp cannot fully go. A powerful psyker could inhabit a blank, but it would take a greater "presence" than the blank to do so. Like filling a lesser "Bag of holding" (sorry, D&D reference). Something that can absorb a lot more volume than is readily apparent.

I apologize for going so far off the thread.

Custodes are very powerful warriors, but as they are always on Terra and never in battle they lack millennial of combat experience over the common Astartes.
But they are not the best of the best, to me Grey Knights are better + they have psychic powers and bad-ass weapons.
And Grey Knight Grand Master is one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Grand_Master

Man. Read the Lexicanum link. So pretty much the Grey Knight Grand Master is the best of the best. Second only to a primarch sort of speak. Just how powerful are these dudes?

individually, a Custode is superior to a marine.


Custodes, however, are individualistic warriors and don't support each other well when fighting multiple foes. nor are they decent at analyzing the tactical situation.

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Blanks do not have psychic ability! They are the antithesis of psykers. There are psykers who are dangerous to other psykers that variation is know as 'Psychic Nightmare".

You're confusing a 'blank' with a 'pariah'. Pariahs have no psychic ability, nor do they register at all within the Warp and they are far, far more uncomfortable for psykers to be around than Blanks(or as we saw them called in the Eisenhorn books "Untouchables").

'Blanks' however do exhibit what is classed as a latent psyker talent. The problem is that it's latent--they can't control it, they can't switch it off, they can't do anything about it.

'Psychic Nightmare' is nowhere near being anything like those two ideas.

There's really nothing to indicate "blanks" and "pariahs" are anything but two different terms for the same thing. Even though lexicanum lists them in two separate categories, it doesn't bother to explain if there's any difference, and I certainly haven't seen anything to indicate that there is elsewhere.

Kanluwen wrote:The 'feeling' part is better explained in 'Xenos' when Eisenhorn first meets Bequin to be honest. Eisenhorn is a reaaaaaaaaaaally low-grade psyker, for all intents and purposes--he might as well be human. And even he's a bit put off by the aura she's radiating.

He wasn't actually all that weak. He wasn't nearly as strong as Ravenor, especially not Ravenor in his chair, with its psychic amplifiers and whatnot, but he wasn't particularly weak either.

Everything that's not soulless is technically a psyker. Normal humans can manifest apparently psychic phenomena through sufficient faith that something is going to happen, in just the same way that Orks do (although humans have a harder time of it, as sapience brings doubt and varying degrees of faith). This would also explain the unnerving effect blanks have on normal humans; I'd be willing to bet Tau wouldn't suffer the same effect, but perhaps an ork might, if it's bright enough to notice anything at all, tyranids certainly do, as it screws with their connection to the hive mind (For the Emperor, possibly Duty Calls), and necrons apparently hunt lifeforms based on the presence of souls, ignoring blanks and anyone hidden by their field, at least under some circumstance (Caves of Ice). Blanks/pariahs aren't "soulless," they're essentially negatives; where a psyker is blazing pyre, a blank is a hole into which heat and light falls. Both effects can be altered and/or replicated through technology, as there are limiters that dampen the field a blank produces, devices which mimic the field it produces, and a number of devices based around modifying psykers' abilities.

I think a lot of the people that are mentioning a lack of skill on the part of the Custodes in war are forgetting that they fought beside the Emperor during the Great Crusade up until Ullanor. They fought and won wars all by themselves

As far as tactics go, that's another mistake to say Custodes aren't capable. Part of their training is infiltrating and "assassinating" the Emperor. To say that they don't have a grasp of tactics when they have to outwit, out think, and out maneuver their own order constantly is laughable. Granted they might not focus on galactic troop movements and such, but they focus on where one man can do the most damage at the right time. Which for a fighting force made of highly capable independent soldiers is ideal.

And on the off topic, I think it's pretty clearly stated that Blanks are a lesser form of Pariahs. That's why Clade Culexus uses only Pariahs. Their presence is actually harmful to psykers, thus enabling them to use the Animus Speculum to it's full power. Where Blanks only dampen the flow of power around them, inhibiting the use of psyker abilities around or against them.

Custodes had to be better than any regular astartes or any assassin for that matter, remember they're guarding the most important man on history of the Imperium, of course they had to be good. Their training is not for regular warfare, its for a more insidious war fought in the shadows with the most inventive weapons in the whole imperium, their enemies are not as clear cut as the astartes face nor would the methods that they should fight as regular as astartes are accustomed to fight.

I think it's insane to say that Custodes don't have at least equal grasp of tactical analysis to Astartes.

The tactical weakness of Custodes v Astartes appears to be that there's rarely more than 5 of them in any single place whereas Astartes deploy in legions.

Referenced throughout HH is that while Custodes are bigger than a Space Marine on average, with the exceptions of a few exceptionally large custodes the difference isn't pronounced enough to allow Custodes to beat Astartes on that trait alone (unlike SM v Human). Sort of like Rocky Balboa vs Ivan Drago.

As Kan said, the possessed in fluff terms are way more powerful than their tabletop counterparts. Tabletop is not a good representation of how powerful the actual forces are. For instance, in a 1500 pt battle of Space Marines vs. IG, you have around 20-30 Space Marines vs roughly 60-100 guardsman. In tabletop terms, they are equal. In the fluff, 20-30 Space Marines would wipe out 60-100 Guardsman without breaking a sweat, or losing any casualties.

As for the Custodes, spoilers because I don't think Kan has read A Thousand Sons or Propsero Burns or The First Heretic.



I don't think the Custodes have any less tactical grasp than Space Marines. As someone else noted, that's absurd. It's just as a band of warriors, they do not fight as a team, because they are trained to be individuals.

Not read "The First Heretic", but I'm finishing up 'A Thousand Sons' right now, then starting 'Prospero Burns' immediately afterwards.

Stupid classwork has been taking precedence over catching up on the Horus Heresy.

Back in the day, before the shifting continental plates of 40K history (commonly known as fluff) started their yearly march, it was stated that a Custode was to a "normal" Marine, what a Marine was to a "normal" human........

I belive it was the short story in the book "Tales of the Space Marines" or something like that, that decided to water them down, and a scene of confrontation between Rogal Dorn and five of his "normal" Space marines set the record straight, I belive it was stated in that story that the Maarines had a really good chance of handing the Custodes their arses without to much of a fuss.

That story then become the "facts" and other writers seem to have built upon this "Truth".......it's a shame really, as the Custodes were a pretty interesting bunch until they were Black Libraried......

Significantly more powerful than standard Space Marines; i.e. a Custodes is what a Marine would be to a Guardsmen

I believe that the custodes have forgone armour since the Emperor's internment. I don't think they would last that long against a marine assault. Of course if anyone was crazy enough to attack the imperial palace, I'm sure that they would don their armour again.