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Laodamia wrote:In "Prospero Burns", a major thousand sons sorcerer manages to break into a custodes mind and to steal his combat capabilities. This sorcerer then grabs the custodes' halberd and starts a duel with Bjorn Fell Handed. From the description of the duel, it is clear that custodes fighting skills exceed by far those of an Astartes, especially when they fight with their favorite weapon, this power halberd. Bjorn only manages to secure a narrow victory thanks to his bestial ruthlessness and to the intervention of a third person. Moreover, he gets significantly wounded during this very short duel.

However, in a all-out war, would the astartes have the upper hand? I would say it would still be unlikely. In the description of the sacking of prospero later in the same book, custodes don't seem to experience any special difficulty in facing the TS.

The only reason to think Custodes cannot tactically coordinate their attacks.....is because Dembski-Bowden used it as a plot device in First Heretic. I guess he thought that would be the only way to explain them getting beat in combat without diminishing their skills.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Laodamia wrote:In "Prospero Burns", a major thousand sons sorcerer manages to break into a custodes mind and to steal his combat capabilities. This sorcerer then grabs the custodes' halberd and starts a duel with Bjorn Fell Handed. From the description of the duel, it is clear that custodes fighting skills exceed by far those of an Astartes, especially when they fight with their favorite weapon, this power halberd. Bjorn only manages to secure a narrow victory thanks to his bestial ruthlessness and to the intervention of a third person. Moreover, he gets significantly wounded during this very short duel.

However, in a all-out war, would the astartes have the upper hand? I would say it would still be unlikely. In the description of the sacking of prospero later in the same book, custodes don't seem to experience any special difficulty in facing the TS.

Spoiler:

That wasn't a Thousand Sons Sorcerer, as explained later in the novel. That was a Chaos entity masquerading as a Thousand Son to influence the ruling at Nikea. As an aside, I though the Abnett angle of "I know your name therefore control you" was idiotic and most of the latter part of that book was trash.

The only reason to think Custodes cannot tactically coordinate their attacks.....is because Dembski-Bowden used it as a plot device in First Heretic. I guess he thought that would be the only way to explain them getting beat in combat without diminishing their skills.

True. I only went for the "TS sorcerer" explanation for the sake of conciseness.

But I guess the result is the same right? The daemon/sorcerer gained the custodes' dueling skills and used them to fight Bjorn.

And I agree when you say the end of Propero Burns is a bit messed up.

As mentioned in The First Heretic, it was only the weakness of their foes and their incredible fighting abilities that prevented the Custodes' lack of team-work from biting them in the ass when Argal Tal first observed them in combat.

If you want to recreate the scenario, I'd suggest taking three Chapter Masters, bumping their WS up to 7 (another order of magnitude), and give them the equivalent of Glaive Encarmines and Angelus Boltguns. Then make them all Independent Characters. Aquillon gets a Relic Blade and no Boltgun. The Custodes also get Artificer Armour.

Now take 11 Possessed and make on of them a Possessed Champion to represent Argal Tal. Given Argal Tal's experience in dismembering Astartes at the Dropsite Massacre, Power Weapons seems like the appropriate Daemonkin rule.

The Custodes get six Power Weapon attacks at S5, and three at S6, hitting on 3+, and hit first at I5. The Custodes hit on 3+, with Aquillon wounding on 2+ and the others wounding on 3+. The Possessed have their Iv5+. The other two Custodes can be expected to cause 1.74 casualties (~2), and Aquillon accounts for 1.10 casualties (~1).

The remaining 8 Possessed, including Argal Tal, get 25 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, and no saves for the Custodes. That's 8.25 unsaved wounds (~ 8), leaving the remaining Custodes at 1 wound.

In the next round, the surviving Custodes get 3 attacks, expected to cause 0.86 wounds (b'bye Xaphen!), while the remaining 7 Possessed should cause 4.95 (~5) wounds and tear the Custodes to pieces.

So given the scenario, it's not unexpected that the Custodes get torn to shreds. Actually, it's kind of neat how closely this result follows the result in the novel.

All of the Custodes had Iron Halos though from what I remember and have seen.

Citation please.

@ Nurglitch

Ahhhh Mathhammer.....the pen is truley mightier than the sword

And yes, it is quite cool how the game "could" play quite close to the novel.....

Always wanted a book about Custodes, certainly one of the reasons that I loved First Heretic.

I remember a quote which I think was from Collected Visions that the Custodes are to Astartes as The Emperor is to his Primarchs

If it is implied in the novels that a space marine is able to best Custodes than whats the point the emperor made them? why not just use space marines SQUADS who work together and kick ass?...

Imho the custodes was watered down to fit the author's story...seriously sometimes black libary stuff makes me want to bang my head...and reading ward's fluff is even worse...

The Emperor created the Custodes to be Bodyguards.


the Emperor created the Space Marines to be Warriors without peer.



a Bodyguard has to be a highly skilled soldier, but all he has to do is protect his charge and know how to evacuate from the place they are defending. or defend untill help arrives. his training reflects his purpose.


the Custodes were also NOT designed to fight Space Marines.

As I recall, Custodes are to Marines, as Marines are to Guardsmen, or that's the analogy I remember at least.

But as has been iterated, Custodes are bodyguards, they are meant to fight one on one, or as champions. They are meant to be masters of stealth and assasination so they can better understand how to protect the Emperor. It's not surprising they didn't perform as well in direct combat.

you are mixing Custodes up with Primarchs.

the Primarchs were as to Marines as Marines are to Humans.


the Custodes are different yet similer to marines. Custodes are Test Tube babies. created 100% artificially. Marines are Humans to begin with.

Huh, I swear I remember reading somewhere that Custodes were above Marines, but since I can't find the source, I'll yield over to you.

It's from here;

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

The martial capabilities of the Adeptus Custodes remain largely unknown. What is known is that they possess skill beyond even a 'normal' member of the Adeptus Astartes. It has been said that the Adeptus Custodes are to a Space Marine what a Space Marine is to a member of the Imperial Guard. They are similar to the Grey Knights, the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus branch of the Inquisition, in that both are elite, secret organisations with close ties to the Emperor. Custodes are unique as they have neither a known Primarch nor do they use gene-seed to produce their genetic modifications. They stand a full head taller than a Space Marine and it iis said that they were almost the same size as a Primarch. In fact it was said that Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian to the Emperor during the Horus Hersey, was the same size as the traitor Primarch Alpharius of the Alpha Legion.

Although it doesn't list what citation they are using, here is a list of references you could dig through to find the source;

↑ http://fr.games-workshop.com/40k/space_marines/modelisme/custodes/img/art_custodes_marines.jpg
↑ 2.0 2.1 McNeil, Graham; Hoare, Andy, and Haines, Pete (2003). Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Witchhunters, 1st Edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-485-X.
↑ See here
Merrett, Alan (2004). Horus Heresy – Volume I: Visions of War. Nottingham: Black Library. ISBN 1-84416-096-3.
Chambers, Andy; Priestley, Rick, and Haines, Pete (2004). Warhammer 40,000, 4th edition, Nottingham: Games Workshop. ISBN 1-84154-468-X.
Codex Imperialis by Rick Priestley
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader
Blood Games, by Dan Abnett
Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, pp. 28-29
Inquisitor, by Ian Watson

The Hammer wrote:Imho the custodes was watered down to fit the author's story...

I somewhat agree. It's either a modest retcon to bring Custodes into line as Astartes+, similar to how Lucius was the epitome of swordsmanship for his Legion, or a reflection of how truly elite the Gal Vorbak had become.

I'm having trouble remembering the source, it may have been in Blood Games, but isn't it stated that an Custodes may have been slightly larger than an Astartes, but no one would be foolish enough to bet who would win in a contest? Or am I horribly misquoting that?

I think there's no doubt that one on one a Custodes would best a Marine, we're questioning how the Custodes preform in larger groups.

Well, to be fair, the Gal Vorbak were Daemon Possessed.

wokeywile wrote:I'm having trouble remembering the source, it may have been in Blood Games, but isn't it stated that an Custodes may have been slightly larger than an Astartes, but no one would be foolish enough to bet who would win in a contest? Or am I horribly misquoting that?

You've paraphrased it pretty much exactly as I remember it, although I don't quite recall the source either but it's got to be Blood Games or Nemesis since those are the only other Custodes-related HH fluff.

Definitely a bit of a retcon from "Guardsman<Astartes><Custodes".>