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I would like some help in understanding something. We all know that in a squa, the Sergeant, superior, captain, ect. has an extra attack in its stats. Usually that character would have a CCW and a pistol. My question is: does that extra attack in the stats already take into account pistol and CCW, putting that into the stats, or is it just because the sgt or who ever is just faster than the rest? Would he get the additional attack?

Example: Sister of Battle has 1 attack, Veteran Superior has 2. Did it already take into the account of the pistol and sword? Or does she get 3 attacks? And what if she takes something else like a regular bolter? Does she lose that attack?

For special character: Commisar Yarrick has 3 attacks. (One being from his eye, which is stated already in his stats), but the man has a power klaw, storm bolter, pistol, and an additional CCW. Does he rate 4 attacks?

Please help!

Unless it is specficially stated to be included in the codices, it is not included in the profile.

Yarrick would not gain an extra attack, the reason is he is using a power fist/klaw meaning that only another fist/klaw will grant him a bonus attack.

Per your example, you will always have at least 2 attacks with that model (barring a piece of enemy wargear/special rule that lowers it). If you have two close combat weapons, you get a bonus attack, meaning you have 3 attacks. If you charge that is upped to four attacks.

But yarrick has the ccw and bolt pistol. Would that up it for him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another example. Death-Cult Assassins have 2 initial attacks, and have Power weapon and a ccw, so they get three right?

Some say the RAW is unclear so I will speak of the RaI.

If yarrick uses/wields the ccw and bolt pistol, he gains an attack just like everyone else, If he uses the PK he will only gain one from a second PK.

If Death-Cult Assassins have 2 attacks on their profile, and have Power weapon and a ccw, they get three attacks in CC. (adding one attack as normal if they assault).

Basically for the latest edition codex they usually* list base attacks on the profile, and make you add in any 2 CCW or assault bonuses.

*Unless otherwise noted.

Alrighty. Thank you two for clearing that up for me. Much appreciated.

keep in mind that Yarric HAS to use the PK.

Special weapons must be used.

Grey Templar wrote:keep in mind that Yarric HAS to use the PK.

Special weapons must be used.

Yarric has some rule stating he must use his PK?

I do not own the IG codex, so I have never heard or seen his rules.

Grey Templar wrote:keep in mind that Yarric HAS to use the PK.

Special weapons must be used.

Where does it say that special weapons must be used? I can see where it says on pg. 42 that if a model is using a special weapon and a normal CCW all attacks are made with the special weapon. But where does it say that special weapons have to be used in preference to non-special weapons when a model is equipped with more than two CCW?

If special weapons must be used, whats the point of even putting those extra weapons in his stats at all?

Completeness

Could you explain that a little?

Completeness - the Yarrick model has weapons so he was given them in his unit entry too. He no longer gets any benefit for the regular close combat weapon or the pistol for that matter, but he has them.

kmdl1066 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:keep in mind that Yarric HAS to use the PK.

Special weapons must be used.

Where does it say that special weapons must be used? I can see where it says on pg. 42 that if a model is using a special weapon and a normal CCW all attacks are made with the special weapon. But where does it say that special weapons have to be used in preference to non-special weapons when a model is equipped with more than two CCW?

From the underlined above, it all falls to what weapons he is using.

It doesn't 'say that special weapons have to be used in preference to non-special weapons when a model is equipped with more than two CCW' since the brb only covers people equipped with 2 weapons.

Does Yarric has some rule stating he must use his PK?

If not, he could use his ccw and bolt pistol, just like everyone else (and strike at normal Initiative as well).

No he doesn't. Thanks for your insight Reaper.

DR - you MUST use a special weapon if you have one. This is NOT a rule on page 42 but on the preceding pages.

Looks at page 35, 3rd paragraph just under the 2 bullet points under "who can fight"?

BBR page 35 wrote:...and use any special close combat attacks they have

You have no choice in the matter

Considering it says special close combat attacks, and not special close combat weapons, I would tend to disagree with them having to use any special close combat weapons they have.

Special attacks they have to use, not special weapons. That means Gabriel seth must use his whirlwind. (although it states Seth can choose to use this attack), so that is still a choice, but he would have to use that attack every time without that clause.

So if I give a model a power sword and a power fist, which one must I use?

I must use whichever one I declare that I'm using before I work out how many attacks I have!

Yes, if you are using a power sword and a power fist to attack in CC, you must use whichever one you declare that you are using before you work out how many attacks you have.

But if you also had a Bolt pistol and Chainsword, you could use the Bolt pistol and Chainsword to attack with, since neither a power sword or a power fist are special close combat attacks.
(They are special close combat weapons).

If you have a power fist and a power weapon, you must declare before you roll (and I believe you can even split your attacks between them) as you have two different special close combat weapons. This is covered in the rules IIRC.

You may not, however, use a non-special close combat weapon; if you have a special you MUST use it.

if you have 2 special CC weapons you may choose between the 2(although you may not split attacks)

Corrode wrote:If you have a power fist and a power weapon, you must declare before you roll (and I believe you can even split your attacks between them) as you have two different special close combat weapons. This is covered in the rules IIRC.

You may not, however, use a non-special close combat weapon; if you have a special you MUST use it.

If the model only has two one handed CCW, sure, absolutely. pg. 35 and pg. 42 make it very clear that you use the special attack.

But if the model has more than two one handed CCW, and one of them is a special weapon, why must the model use the special weapon in preference to using to normal CCW? The closest we have is on page 35 where it to use the model's special attacks. But if the model isn't using a special weapon as one of the model's two one handed CCW, the model doe not have any special attacks, so surely the rule on pg. 35 doesn't come into effect?


Edit: Who else apart from Yarik has a combination that makes this an issue anyway?

Corrode wrote:Snip...
You may not, however, use a non-special close combat weapon; if you have a special you MUST use it.

Can I get a Page Number on where you are getting this from, because I can not find anything in the rules that says you must use a special close combat weapon.

P.35 only says to use special close combat attacks, and as we already know special close combat weapons are not special close combat attacks.

A weapon is not an attack, it is something you attack with.

kmdl1066 wrote:But if the model has more than two one handed CCW, and one of them is a special weapon, why must the model use the special weapon in preference to using to normal CCW? The closest we have is on page 35 where it to use the model's special attacks. But if the model isn't using a special weapon as one of the model's two one handed CCW, the model doe not have any special attacks, so surely the rule on pg. 35 doesn't come into effect?


Edit: Who else apart from Yarik has a combination that makes this an issue anyway?

The problem is - we have no guidance at all for what to do with 3+ CCWs.

The other 3+ CCW issue that comes up is Marnues Calgar. He has a pair of power fists and a power sword. Does he lose the bonus attack for the second fist because he has two different special weapons?

There is nothing at all to support the selecting of two weapons to fight with but it makes a lot of sense.

You guys might be confusing the special weapons ruling with WHFB, where you most definitely DO have to use a special weapon if you have one.

Zefig wrote:You guys might be confusing the special weapons ruling with WHFB, where you most definitely DO have to use a special weapon if you have one.

No, we're not. There's no question about having to use a special weapon if you have one or two weapons - one or both of which is/are special. The question mark is about more than two weapons which is simply not covered in the rules.

Exactly, it's not covered by the rules, but some people are insisting that you MUST use your special CCW anyway. This could be caused by confusion with the WHFB rules, because there IS a definite ruling there. And it doesn't apply here. Hence, my warning.

Dr - if you have a power fist, you can make special close combat attacks - ignore armour, double strength.

If you DONT use it, and try to use a chainsword instead, you have NOT used all your special close combat attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dr - if you have a power fist, you can make special close combat attacks - ignore armour, double strength.

If you DONT use it, and try to use a chainsword instead, you have NOT used all your special close combat attacks.

Ah, gotcha. If you're in the "choose two weapons when you have more than two" camp then you pick whichever two you want and you're not forced to have a special attack. If you're in the "the rules do not allow you to choose two weapons" camp then all the weapons you are equipped with are taken into consideration for the "do you have special attacks?" question.

By which I understand this thread will now continue for a gazillion pages without any one changing their opinion before some Mod locks it for running around in circles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dr - if you have a power fist, you can make special close combat attacks - ignore armour, double strength.

If you DONT use it, and try to use a chainsword instead, you have NOT used all your special close combat attacks.

Except that a Power Fist is not a special attack, it is a Special weapon that you use to make regular close combat attacks with. (as outlined under the assault section). I.E roll to hit, roll to wound, enemy takes armor saves, casualty removal.

A special attack is something that is outside of the normal attack sequence (Like Gabriel Seth's Whirlwind of gore, that is a special attack that replaces his normal attacks). I.E. something like Whirlwind of gore that is special, and not a regular close combat attack.

Making a special close combat attack =/= attacking with a weapon. (even if that weapon is a special weapon)

You guys are getting off topic.... all I want to know is because of all his weapons, does he get even more attacks, other than just his 3. What I'm thinking, he would because although he does have the Power Klaw, it states in his wargear that he also has a CCW and Pistol. So even if he chooses not to use them, they are still an option for him, and rates the additional attack. Does this make sence? You guys are saying the same thing. It's obvious you're not going to CHOOSE to attack with the CCW when you have a Power Klaw.... common sence, but if he gets that extra attack, that is kind of a big deal.