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The Maelstrom Battlefront thread brought up the advantages and disadvantages of mail order business. Many people are willing to forgo the in-store buying experience, looking over a model for defects such as miscasts and broken parts, for cheaper prices via mail order. This got me thinking, are there other aspects of the hobby that I could forego to save some cash? We all know that sales volume, the number of items sold, is one factor that reduces costs to the consumer. Increased volume may be gained by reducing the number of different types of models in armies. It may also be gained by making simpler models with fewer parts that appeal to beginners. Less detailed molds also reduce costs.

Would you be willing to sacrifice some variety for cheaper prices? If so, how little variety would be acceptable? How much of a discount would be required to sway you? Can you live with starter set style models or are highly posable figures a must? Do you think that it would hurt the 40k/fantasy playing experience if there were fewer types of models or fewer races?

Well obviously the answer is to bring back space dwarfs they are only half the size so they take half the material to make. Then sell them at 50% markup over every other army because they're special limited edition space dwarfs.

There are a good number of models I would axe completely or put into a collectors only production rotation. I would possibly even farm out some of the lowest selling races to partner companies like Forgeworld.

Make 40k Skirmish level and bring back Epic scale for super doopa mega knock down slugfests.

In fact, scrub 40k bring back epic as the be all and end all.

Mr. Burning wrote:Make 40k Skirmish level and bring back Epic scale for super doopa mega knock down slugfests.

In fact, scrub 40k bring back epic as the be all and end all.

I'm not an Epic player, but I support this. Bring 40k down to a Skirmish level game (or just start up Necromunda again) and start updating Epic.

Although, I'd be worried about GW ruining what the fans of the game have been working hard on for so long, now.

Mr. Burning wrote:Make 40k Skirmish level and bring back Epic scale for super doopa mega knock down slugfests.

In fact, scrub 40k bring back epic as the be all and end all.

If I wanted to play 15mm, I'd be playing 15mm.

Keep your Epic away from my 40k!

The entire space marine range. Bam, I said it.

spaceelf wrote:The Maelstrom Battlefront thread brought up the advantages and disadvantages of mail order business. Many people are willing to forgo the in-store buying experience, looking over a model for defects such as miscasts and broken parts, for cheaper prices via mail order. This got me thinking, are there other aspects of the hobby that I could forego to save some cash? We all know that sales volume, the number of items sold, is one factor that reduces costs to the consumer. Increased volume may be gained by reducing the number of different types of models in armies. It may also be gained by making simpler models with fewer parts that appeal to beginners. Less detailed molds also reduce costs.

Would you be willing to sacrifice some variety for cheaper prices? If so, how little variety would be acceptable? How much of a discount would be required to sway you? Can you live with starter set style models or are highly posable figures a must? Do you think that it would hurt the 40k/fantasy playing experience if there were fewer types of models or fewer races?

It isn't so much that people want cheaper quality. They want prices that they can stomach, which is why the secondary market is so well.

As for things you can do to play cheaper?

Go scoop up a boat load of 2d edition mass produced and interspace in some of the 10 man tac squads models with the options for the special weapons and Sergeants.

You can play with smaller scale games, where you don't need as much.

You can play your games with scermish level as in a 1-5 man HQ, and 1-3 squads and maybe 1 vehicle, as opposed to 3-5 tanks, 2-6 squads, and the eliet choices.

Scaling down to maybe 1 army, and forgoing all others.

SELLING EVERYTHING OFF AND STARTING MORE REASONABLY PRICED SYSTEMS.

Because, at the end of the day, the numbers of free rules, and cheap minis outdistance games of the price that GW is selling by at least 100 to 1.

I've found more then my fair share, that even if I wanted to, I could get into them with 20 bucks worth of minis and a downloaded PDF.

GW has EPIC minis out there, as well. I saw a guy one time somewhere with a board that he played 40K on with the same epic guys. He put in pins in the bottom of the epic guys and just played the 40K game with them.

Seriously though, We need to buy what we can, but if you think its too much, theres always checkers.

Vandil wrote:Well obviously the answer is to bring back space dwarfs they are only half the size so they take half the material to make. Then sell them at 50% markup over every other army because they're special limited edition space dwarfs.

Sadly I would almost be willing to pay that much to get me some squats.

Grot 6 wrote:
It isn't so much that people want cheaper quality. They want prices that they can stomach, which is why the secondary market is so well.

This is very true. I only mentioned less detailed molds as an after thought. I mainly wanted to hear what people thought about giving up some unit types and sculpts for a reduction in price.

Obviously less variety and mass sales would bring the price way down. Look at Battle Masters back in the day. Lots of minis super cheap. It would be really nice if they did something like that for horde armies so you could load up on units. A box of 40 minis for 40 bucks would sell real well. However, for a company to make this strategy worth while they would need enough people to buy those units. This can be accomplished by cutting other units from the game, or making the units in said boxes better in game terms than the other units.

infinite_array wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Make 40k Skirmish level and bring back Epic scale for super doopa mega knock down slugfests.

In fact, scrub 40k bring back epic as the be all and end all.

I'm not an Epic player, but I support this. Bring 40k down to a Skirmish level game (or just start up Necromunda again) and start updating Epic.

Although, I'd be worried about GW ruining what the fans of the game have been working hard on for so long, now.

I say bring back Necromunda, with a few tweaks to smooth it out, and able to be used for both hive gangs and 40k soldiers. It really wouldnt be that hard to do. They could release some special 40k models, maybe a couple new or redone gangs, and play up the use of existing GW minis in the game. It would give them an excuse for another big $$ hardcover.

Mad4Minis wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Make 40k Skirmish level and bring back Epic scale for super doopa mega knock down slugfests.

In fact, scrub 40k bring back epic as the be all and end all.

I'm not an Epic player, but I support this. Bring 40k down to a Skirmish level game (or just start up Necromunda again) and start updating Epic.

Although, I'd be worried about GW ruining what the fans of the game have been working hard on for so long, now.

I say bring back Necromunda, with a few tweaks to smooth it out, and able to be used for both hive gangs and 40k soldiers. It really wouldnt be that hard to do. They could release some special 40k models, maybe a couple new or redone gangs, and play up the use of existing GW minis in the game. It would give them an excuse for another big $$ hardcover.

And simo- release Mordheim again too.

Nothing. My problem has never been that GW is simply too expensive, it's that their quality does not consistently match their pricing. To offer me less than what I can get now for less cost doesn't solve that problem. It would probably leave me feeling like GW was just playing a shell game.

The best thing that could happen is for them to become a privately owned company again.

snurl wrote:The best thing that could happen is for them to become a privately owned company again.

There's an easy way to do that. Buy all the stock.
What's GW selling at these days?

Skinnereal wrote:What's GW selling at these days?

£3.75 a share according to Yahoo finance

spaceelf wrote:The Maelstrom Battlefront thread brought up the advantages and disadvantages of mail order business. Many people are willing to forgo the in-store buying experience, looking over a model for defects such as miscasts and broken parts, for cheaper prices via mail order. This got me thinking, are there other aspects of the hobby that I could forego to save some cash? We all know that sales volume, the number of items sold, is one factor that reduces costs to the consumer. Increased volume may be gained by reducing the number of different types of models in armies. It may also be gained by making simpler models with fewer parts that appeal to beginners. Less detailed molds also reduce costs.

Would you be willing to sacrifice some variety for cheaper prices? If so, how little variety would be acceptable? How much of a discount would be required to sway you? Can you live with starter set style models or are highly posable figures a must? Do you think that it would hurt the 40k/fantasy playing experience if there were fewer types of models or fewer races?

I dont see much sense on your sentences... maybe its just me reading... Since when buying online has anything to do with opting to get faulty miscasts or substandart products?
Since when well priced products equals less variety?

I do believe you need to look things in a fresh prespective... you today can get into a cheap system at cheap prices with superior quality castings and sculpt design and with lots of variety... our options are not limited to GW ways like you seem to believe.

GW already sells the clip-together models for horde armies, well at least for IG and orks.

Problem is I think all the snap togethers look like crap, no personality.

If I didn't want to customize/convert/assemble my miniatures, I'd go play chess.

I did like when Apoc first came out, GW sold boxes with 100 orks or IG guardsmen at a pretty decent discount.

spaceelf wrote:The Maelstrom Battlefront thread brought up the advantages and disadvantages of mail order business. Many people are willing to forgo the in-store buying experience, looking over a model for defects such as miscasts and broken parts, for cheaper prices via mail order.

Most of the mail-order folks aren't sacrificing anything, they're free riding on those of us who purchase in-store. Buying in-store provides gaming space, in-store codices, stock on the wall, and supports the community. Buying online and taking advantage of these things is free riding.

spaceelf wrote:Would you be willing to sacrifice some variety for cheaper prices? If so, how little variety would be acceptable?

Yes, I would love to see all the various Chaos cult troops replaced with a "basic set + upgrade sprue." The Khorne upgrade sprue would have axes + heads, Tzeentch would have tabards + heads (OK, I really just want a plastic TS sprue), Nurgle would be gooey bits + heads, and Slanesh would have heads + sonic weaponry.

Sure you're losing some variety, but this would standardize the model line and make it cheaper. They already do this with all of the rhino varients.

I'd also love to see most of the SM line reduced. There's no reason to have a Dreadnought, Venerable Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought, and Furioso Dreadnought (or even a separate Chaos Dreadnought). Make 1 dreadnought and upgrade sprues. Similar logic as Chaos for the various SM troops (vets, sternguard, assault, tac, devs, DC, wolves). The BT and DA specific troops could stay, because they add something to the line (cloaks), but should be reduced to 1 model + upgrades.

Similar logic applies to Eldar, there's no reason to have separate sprues when most of the basic eldar body is the same. One sprue can have body + legs while a second has the important aspect bits.

Ditto for Orks. No reason not to have ork boyz sprue + 'ard boyz/slugga boyz/flash gits/burna boyz sprue.

The alien-based armies with a wider variety of troop types (DE, Tau, Necrons) would be harder to standardize, but are already pretty lean.

Cheaper prices would not require a reduction in moulding quality. Perry Brothers produce superb historical plastic figures for 1/3rd the price of the GW kits. Mantic for Fantasy. Blah blah.

What you are paying for in GW’s prices is the maintenance cost of the retail chain they use to market to new customers.

GW could cut their overheads by over 50% by getting rid of their shops and going mail order/indy only. The problem is could they could sustain recruitment of new customers by different marketing methods, and the cost/revenue curve for the new methods.

Historically speaking, wargames shops have always been very genre businesses, and have never carried a huge range of figures. Most wargamers have always relied principally on mail order for buying their armies, and marketing has been done through press ads and word of mouth. OTOH most wargame companies have always been much smaller than GW.

Perhaps GW with a new Web only marketing strategy would shrink significantly as a business, though it could still be much more profitable than it is at the moment. The worry for WHFB/40K players is what level of income is needed for GW to finance the moulding and production of plastic models. The example of companies like Warlord might show that massive investment isn’t needed.

I personally wouldn’t miss the retail shops. I pop in occasionally, more for something to do at lunchtime than because I want to buy anything. Since the rationalizations of the past year or two, the range of stock is very restricted.

Something I would like to see, which I think could benefit people quite widely, is division of the current rules and codexes into two books.

One would cover the army rules, and the other would cover the fluff and hobby section. They could be sold separately, offering people the choice of buying either or both. Fluff fans could pick up multiple faction source books, while hardcore players could just get the rules they want.

Kilkrazy wrote:Cheaper prices would not require a reduction in moulding quality. Perry Brothers produce superb historical plastic figures for 1/3rd the price of the GW kits. Mantic for Fantasy. Blah blah.

Sorry, but Mantic's stuff isn't really in the same ballpark as GW's.

Perhaps GW 10-15 years ago, but not GW today.

Perry Brothers have to compete with the rest of the historical miniatures market--which tends towards people wanting 'cheap' kits, not the 'best' kits.

I just want them to scrap the "paying for the point value of the unit" bull. Lootas are wonderful in game, but having to buy 5 boxes to get the 20 models I want (which totals to R2200, 3/4 of my monthly paycheck) is disgusting. And it's FOUR units per box plus a damn Mek. I could buy 3 battalions for that price! Let us pay for the materials used plus a surcharge, then I'll start buying en masse.

Kanluwen...Historicals miniatures market quality standarts is maybe something you are not familiar with... it goes from 1mm crap to bigger scales palstic kits GW can only dream off.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Cheaper prices would not require a reduction in moulding quality. Perry Brothers produce superb historical plastic figures for 1/3rd the price of the GW kits. Mantic for Fantasy. Blah blah.

Sorry, but Mantic's stuff isn't really in the same ballpark as GW's.

Perhaps GW 10-15 years ago, but not GW today.

Perry Brothers have to compete with the rest of the historical miniatures market--which tends towards people wanting 'cheap' kits, not the 'best' kits.

In that case, I would be happy to sacrifice GW's quality for price.

NAVARRO wrote:Kanluwen...Historicals miniatures market quality standarts is maybe something you are not familiar with... it goes from 1mm crap to bigger scales plastic kits GW can only dream off.

I'm not talking about the 'standards' of the models. Some of them are fantastically crafted pieces that look amazing done up in period colors.

I'm talking about the Perry Brothers pricing their models to be competitive. They're not the only people making, say, Confederate Riflemen or Napoleonic Grenadiers.

GW can charge whatever they want for their models, simply because nobody else can produce products based on their IP without their permission--which, before we get the standard rants about 'It's a monopoly!', it's not. There's nothing preventing other companies from producing their own IP similar to GW's in that it's a 'futuristic' wargame.
There's no such framework in place for the 100 Years War or Napoleon's romp through Europe or Sherman's March.

Kanluwen wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Kanluwen...Historicals miniatures market quality standarts is maybe something you are not familiar with... it goes from 1mm crap to bigger scales plastic kits GW can only dream off.

I'm not talking about the 'standards' of the models. Some of them are fantastically crafted pieces that look amazing done up in period colors.

I'm talking about the Perry Brothers pricing their models to be competitive. They're not the only people making, say, Confederate Riflemen or Napoleonic Grenadiers.

GW can charge whatever they want for their models, simply because nobody else can produce products based on their IP without their permission--which, before we get the standard rants about 'It's a monopoly!', it's not. There's nothing preventing other companies from producing their own IP similar to GW's in that it's a 'futuristic' wargame.
There's no such framework in place for the 100 Years War or Napoleon's romp through Europe or Sherman's March.

Actually you were very specific towards the "rest" of the miniature historical market apart Perry's but its ok, you dont want to take the bullet no problem

GW as much as you think is not "alone" in creating fantasy driven IP's and making miniatures for them... and theres a world of interesting kits outhere... SUre they can charge what they want for their specific IP I mean its their call as is ours to look for better kits at better prices elsewere... and if you search for quality alone and forget price tags man oh man... putting GW forgeworld best next to these is like you put a 15mm malformed little man next to FW bloodthirster

NAVARRO wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Kanluwen...Historicals miniatures market quality standarts is maybe something you are not familiar with... it goes from 1mm crap to bigger scales plastic kits GW can only dream off.

I'm not talking about the 'standards' of the models. Some of them are fantastically crafted pieces that look amazing done up in period colors.

I'm talking about the Perry Brothers pricing their models to be competitive. They're not the only people making, say, Confederate Riflemen or Napoleonic Grenadiers.

GW can charge whatever they want for their models, simply because nobody else can produce products based on their IP without their permission--which, before we get the standard rants about 'It's a monopoly!', it's not. There's nothing preventing other companies from producing their own IP similar to GW's in that it's a 'futuristic' wargame.
There's no such framework in place for the 100 Years War or Napoleon's romp through Europe or Sherman's March.

Actually you were very specific towards the "rest" of the miniature historical market apart Perry's but its ok, you dont want to take the bullet no problem

Actually, I wasn't very specific towards the 'rest' of the miniature historical market.

I was very specific towards what the buyers seemingly prefer.
There's a reason that those companies putting out 15mm malformed little men are still in business. And it's not because they're putting out "quality" workmanship.

With historicals, an emphasis is seemingly put out there on cheap models rather than quality.

GW as much as you think is not "alone" in creating fantasy driven IP's and making miniatures for them... and theres a world of interesting kits outhere... SUre they can charge what they want for their specific IP I mean its their call as is ours to look for better kits at better prices elsewere... and if you search for quality alone and forget price tags man oh man... putting GW forgeworld best next to these is like you put a 15mm malformed little man next to FW bloodthirster

Did I say they are? No. I said that they are alone in being able to produce models for their IP.

You call these malformed...



You're kidding, right?!?

Again:
I'm speaking in generalities. Look at some of the companies out there which are selling far, far more than they reasonably should be considering the quality of their product.

Kanluwen wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Kanluwen...Historicals miniatures market quality standarts is maybe something you are not familiar with... it goes from 1mm crap to bigger scales plastic kits GW can only dream off.

I'm not talking about the 'standards' of the models. Some of them are fantastically crafted pieces that look amazing done up in period colors.

I'm talking about the Perry Brothers pricing their models to be competitive. They're not the only people making, say, Confederate Riflemen or Napoleonic Grenadiers.

GW can charge whatever they want for their models, simply because nobody else can produce products based on their IP without their permission--which, before we get the standard rants about 'It's a monopoly!', it's not. There's nothing preventing other companies from producing their own IP similar to GW's in that it's a 'futuristic' wargame.
There's no such framework in place for the 100 Years War or Napoleon's romp through Europe or Sherman's March.

Actually you were very specific towards the "rest" of the miniature historical market apart Perry's but its ok, you dont want to take the bullet no problem

Actually, I wasn't very specific towards the 'rest' of the miniature historical market.

I was very specific towards what the buyers seemingly prefer.
There's a reason that those companies putting out 15mm malformed little men are still in business. And it's not because they're putting out "quality" workmanship.

Its the same thing my friend if buyers of market X want crap marketX will produce crap ( or its a fantastic market were all produce things no one buys)... Your funny trying to rephrase what you post... but I could be the one reading to much in your afirmations... but then you write-

"With historicals, an emphasis is seemingly put out there on cheap models rather than quality."

Funny you introduced the seemingly now are you having doubts? eheheh
And I have to repeat that you dont know much of what you are talking about... sorry... Historicals is much more diverse and rich than you claim it to be... sorry but someone that posts that once is probably just uninformed but posting same thing twice is just pointless and doesnt give much field to argument.

GW as much as you think is not "alone" in creating fantasy driven IP's and making miniatures for them... and theres a world of interesting kits outhere... SUre they can charge what they want for their specific IP I mean its their call as is ours to look for better kits at better prices elsewere... and if you search for quality alone and forget price tags man oh man... putting GW forgeworld best next to these is like you put a 15mm malformed little man next to FW bloodthirster

Did I say they are? No. I said that they are alone in being able to produce models for their IP.

Where the feth am I slagging on Mantic? All I said is that they are not the same quality as Games Workshop presently is.

I'm sorry, but you've got some kind of weird idea of the quality of Mantic's stuff. I've got a whole army sitting in the bag that they gave me from the contest to name their Dwarf ranged unit.

Is their stuff bad? No, it sure as hell isn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination would I call them 'bad'. The detail's crisp, but the overall quality is a bit lacking when paired against GW's.

Kanluwen wrote:Perry Brothers have to compete with the rest of the historical miniatures market--which tends towards people wanting 'cheap' kits, not the 'best' kits.

That was my first post about Historicals.

You seem to have misunderstood that to be 'slagging the historical miniature market'.

Kanluwen wrote:Where the feth am I slagging on Mantic? All I said is that they are not the same quality as Games Workshop presently is.

I'm sorry, but you've got some kind of weird idea of the quality of Mantic's stuff. I've got a whole army sitting in the bag that they gave me from the contest to name their Dwarf ranged unit.

Is their stuff bad? No, it sure as hell isn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination would I call them 'bad'. The detail's crisp, but the overall quality is a bit lacking when paired against GW's.

Kanluwen wrote:Perry Brothers have to compete with the rest of the historical miniatures market--which tends towards people wanting 'cheap' kits, not the 'best' kits.

That was my first post about Historicals.

You seem to have misunderstood that to be 'slagging the historical miniature market'.

Yes mate its just me misunderstaning ya... you just posted that right?... Its fun to debate but repeating same things a 3rd time in such short period is a bit to much for me
Yes mate Historicals are driven by people searching for cheap crap and mantic is crap, on the other hand GW is the beacon of all things hobby