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Looking thru the fluff in the leaked GK codex, the entry for terminators talks about grey knights being more fortunate than other sm chapters in that they have access to countless sets of terminator armour and that the GK forces are made up of mostly terminators. GW have also moved them to troops.

But then we get the other types of GK - strike squads, purgation squads and purifier squads. Add to these the dreadknight and we have 4 options that look more 'must have' than the terminators. The points cost of some of these options means that we are already going to have to be very economical with our choices so I just dont see that many terminator squads (or paladin squads for that matter) being used.

Unless you're playing 3000+ battles, it willbe very hard to fit these guys in. Why have GW taken some awesome concepts/squads and effectively put them out of reach of people who play at 'normal' points sizes?

Just had to rant about this one.

I think people would still field them and/or the elite version of them anyway regardless of if they're a good choice for whatever point level they're playing.

Depending on the points maybe even more so as they ones who liked the terminators would no longer be forced to take the power armour ones.

Having read the rules I'll be taking a 10 man squad of Paladin Terminators.

And I'll probably have 2 5 man Terminators as troops too.

I'll have one Dreadknight too.

That'll fit in 1500 points.

The Grey knight termies are too pretty not to take.

Not heard if paladins are first wave though.

Eh? They shouldn't look too different from the standard GK right? I mean they are still marines after all

I can't wait for another option to field another Termie list
I like them so much i started Space Wolves Logan wing just to get Troop Termies

My goal is to have all the gimmick marine army

Amazing how quick some people are to dismiss possibly great units.

Each Terminator can replace his force sword with either a Nemesis Daemon hammer or a Nemesis Force Halberd for free.

This means each of your Terminators can give up (what is rumored to be) and extra attack in exchange for +1 Initiative or Strength.

Take a unit of Terminators, give them Daemon Hammers, use Hammerhand, and you're S6 Termies are back, this time at only 200 points.

Additionally, their Incinerators are 15 points cheaper, while their Psilencers and Psycannons are slightly more expensive, but relentless (meaning Heavy 3 on the Psycannon all the time).

They have access to a Brotherhood Banner, which while we don't know what that does yet, probably adds +1 attack to units withing X".

And, though Justicar Thawn may look pointless at first glance, consider the following:

1.) He is a Psychic Mastery Level 2 Psyker, meaning you get 2 psychic powers from him per turn.

2.) He is a Psyker in addition to the unit, meaning you get 2 USES OF HAMMERHAND.

3.) You can still use your Force Weapon after casting Hammerhand.

4.) He has WS5, comes with a Halberd, and makes the squad Fearless.

5.) He's practically impossible to kill. After he dies, he is brought back to life on a roll of 4+. You roll on EVERY subsequent turn, which means if he dies on turn 3, you have at least 2 tries to bring him back. Sure, he gives up a kill point if he comes back, and then dies again, but meh.

I wasn't dismissing a potentially great unit. They're terminators so I'm sure they will be very good but I'm not sure that they will be worth the points cost when you consider what the various PAGK squads can do.

Firstly, taking a look at the Terminator - supposedly, the GK version of the TH/SS is the warding stave which costs another 20 points per model so we possibly won't see many squads full of Warding Stave Terminators. The new incinerators are cheaper but also, supposedly don't ignore invulnerable saves like the old ones. Terminators can take psybolt ammo but not psyflame ammo. Psycannons are actually the same cost, it's the psybolt ammo that would up the cost but it would also apply to stormbolters as well as psycannons if you took it. And as you say, there are various wargear options. Assuming that we kit out a squad with wargear - hypothetically, a psycannon, two warding staves and psybolt ammo. That's an extra 85 points, so 285 points for 5. Depending on your warger options, it may be more, it may be less but it certainly won't cost 200 points to field 5 terminators once you've kitted them out. There are no dedicated transports for terminators so you'd spend an extra 255 points on a landraider if you wanted to ferry them about (I realise you don't have to). Yes, terminators look like they could be very good, in some ways not as good as the old ones but in many ways better but they will cost a lot of points.

Now, looking at some of the PAGK squads - Strike Squads: they can have the same weapons as the terminators (including the warding staves) but they can also have personal teleporters for just 6 points per model! Their armour isn't as good and they dont attack as many times but there are more of them. They also have Hammerhand PLUS Warp Quake! They can also take cheap, dedicated transports. These are must haves!

Purifier Squads: Again, same weapons as Terminators, fearless, unlike (surprisingly) Terminators. Again, they have Hammerhand but also Cleansing Flame! They can have dedicated transports and, like their strike squad brethren, are cheaper than the termies.

Purgation squad: Same weapon choices as terminators, Hammerhand AND Astral aim and a load more heavy weapons per squad.

As I mentioned in my original post, the Dreadknight looks almost too goo not to take, too so we'll likely see at least one per army.

I should also mention that at least a couple of squads of melta henchmen may be necessary for anti tank and those Assassins look amazing too.

My point is, whilst terminators look good, the PAGK look far too good to leave out. Along with so many other powerful options, unless you want to run a really small, elite force (which I will do from time to time cause it's fun but certainly not always because I like the flexibility of more varied units), how are we going to be able to afford Terminators in a balanced army?

Two wound termies that can count as troops with FNP and an excellent assortment of weapons? Seriously? This will be all over the tables. They also have holocoust I believe, so you know, blam goes your infantry.

Don't get me wrong, they look awesome, but a 5 man unit of Paladins with only the apothecary upgrade will cost 350 points. Add in other wargear options and you can go above 500 points.

I'd love to be able to field monsters like this but at, say 1500 point battles, you're gonna have to make serious cost cuttings elsewhere to take them. And they WILL be target number 1 and a determined opponent will take them out before they can justify their points.

Hope I'm wrong as I want to try out these beasts myself but I'll be lucky to fit in one squad in anything below 2000 points if I want a flexible force.

I was really hoping that I could make a starter 1500 point army out of the named Grand Master and nothing beyond Paladins/Apothecaries to get a feel for the army and keep costs down but it doesn't really look too viable after play testing with the leaked rules now.

Too much Str 8+ that can insta-kill your whole army.

If they have cool models somebody will field them.

Brother SRM wrote:If they have cool models somebody will field them.

Damn skippy. I already own 30+ GKT, I'll be damned sure they see use. I will probably buy more of them, too.

I just need how to learn to consistently make a 5++ save...

Mattlov wrote:I just need how to learn to consistently make a 5++ save...

Well fortunately for you, rumor is that the basic Nemesis Force Sword will either give +1 attack when paired with a Storm Bolter, or possibly give +1 to a model's invul when in close combat, which means, if true, you'd get a 4++ in CC.

you mean i can get crapload of Swarmlord style invul?

juraigamer wrote:Two wound termies that can count as troops with FNP and an excellent assortment of weapons? Seriously? This will be all over the tables. They also have holocoust I believe, so you know, blam goes your infantry.

Yeah, that 10 man 1000 point unit will be all over the table. On my side of the table I will have 1000 points of squads bearing 2 special weapons for every one of your precious uber terminators.

shealyr wrote:

2.) He is a Psyker in addition to the unit, meaning you get 2 USES OF HAMMERHAND.

3.) You can still use your Force Weapon after casting Hammerhand.

4.) He has WS5, comes with a Halberd, and makes the squad Fearless.

5.) He's practically impossible to kill. After he dies, he is brought back to life on a roll of 4+. You roll on EVERY subsequent turn, which means if he dies on turn 3, you have at least 2 tries to bring him back. Sure, he gives up a kill point if he comes back, and then dies again, but meh.

He does not give up a killpoint. As long as he is alive at the end of the game, no killpoints are given, no matter how many times he 'died'.

Also I dont think you can use hammerhand twice. Justicars, when alive, always cast the psychic power. Meaning he cannot cast the same psychic power twice so he cant cast hammerhand twice.


I agree with the OP. There are much better units. Who'd of thought it, but the simple fact is, terminators are too....fragile.

I get the impression the Daemon hammer is a double strength weapon which when used with Hammer hand makes it strenght 10

Other thing is ColdSadHungry people will be using Modracks ghost terminators and paladins now and then.

Jaon wrote:

shealyr wrote:

2.) He is a Psyker in addition to the unit, meaning you get 2 USES OF HAMMERHAND.

3.) You can still use your Force Weapon after casting Hammerhand.

4.) He has WS5, comes with a Halberd, and makes the squad Fearless.

5.) He's practically impossible to kill. After he dies, he is brought back to life on a roll of 4+. You roll on EVERY subsequent turn, which means if he dies on turn 3, you have at least 2 tries to bring him back. Sure, he gives up a kill point if he comes back, and then dies again, but meh.

He does not give up a killpoint. As long as he is alive at the end of the game, no killpoints are given, no matter how many times he 'died'.

Also I dont think you can use hammerhand twice. Justicars, when alive, always cast the psychic power. Meaning he cannot cast the same psychic power twice so he cant cast hammerhand twice.


I agree with the OP. There are much better units. Who'd of thought it, but the simple fact is, terminators are too....fragile.

The rules for Brotherhood of Psykers says that the unit casts the psychic power, using the leadership of the Justicar if he is alive.

So, you have the unit casting Hammerhand, and then you have Thawn casting the power as an upgrade character.

Jaon wrote:Other thing is ColdSadHungry people will be using Modracks ghost terminators and paladins now and then.

Modrak and his ghost terminators are a different kettle of fish to regular termies and paladins because they can deepstrike accurately on turn 1. I definitely intend to see what I can do with this guy and his termies, a vindicare infiltrating and using grand strategy scout move a dreadknight up to my opponent. Also, a turn 1 move to 30" jump a couple of strike squads into my opponents face and you'll really have them on the back foot. It may be a bit gung ho but with some practice and a bit of refinement, I think turn 1 could be devastating for a GK opponent. If the leaked codex is at all correct - we'll see next week!

Wow, more people online discussing how to use an army, based on an incomplete set of rules which may or may not have been changed before the book was finalised. Do you really think it's worth flogging your brain considering which unit is best, before you have actually read the released book?

Yes.

Any other questions easily answered?

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Wow, more people online discussing how to use an army, based on an incomplete set of rules which may or may not have been changed before the book was finalised. Do you really think it's worth flogging your brain considering which unit is best, before you have actually read the released book?

Welcome to the news and rumor forum!

Forget Terminators anyway - anyone not intending to play Grey Knights needs to get ready to face a whole army of these not cheesy at all:



Space Gorillas - I think I'll be able to field them with a straight face.

Thinking about it, no I won't. And I won't field them no matter how good they are

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Yes.

Any other questions easily answered?

No, I'm good. Carry on.

I wouldn't really think they'd be too rare. I expect them to be fairly useful. I expect to see a lot of Psycannons and as many guys with power weapons as you can fit in an army but I think terminators/paladins will have their place.

I had whole-heartedly planned on doing the easy intro army of: Draigo + 17 Paladins but I know it'd be too terrible. Even if it is only going to be 4 boxes of guys and an HQ cheap.

despite what the fluff may say or the points cost....players love Terminators, in particular the Grey Knight terms. I expect to see entire army's based around Terms and LR/LRC. I cant imagine very many daemonhunter lists without 1 or 2 squads of Terms, especially if they are a troops entry.

btw, brutal loss to Liverpool on Sunday, they certainly shredded your defense

Yeah, and they shredded our midfield, too. But to be honest, our midfield has been lacking for a number of years and is only getting worse. Liverpool deserved the win, can't argue otherwise. Sadly.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Forget Terminators anyway - anyone not intending to play Grey Knights needs to get ready to face a whole army of these not cheesy at all:



Space Gorillas - I think I'll be able to field them with a straight face.

Thinking about it, no I won't. And I won't field them no matter how good they are

A guy in my club is using the dual heavy weapon gorillas as his tau broadsides. He did make up some plasticard replacement railcannons though.
They were too cheap to pass up - Cost him $20 to fill his entire potential allocation of them (teams). With the added advantage that they won't snap their ankles.
All they needed were extra missile pods.

I see 5 man GKT squads having merit as your backfield scoring unit, but not as a premiere assault unit simply because they lack sufficient stats (2+ save does not offset a 5+ invul and base 4s). They can beat up a Tac squad, but die to AssTerms and pretty much anything in the league of AssTerms.

Really, though, I think the most often seen GKTs will be Mordie's Ghost Terms. Cheaper terms, a barely more expensive GM character, and special rules to boot.

My god, Premier League discussion on Dakka Dakka. The lunatics must be running the asylum (as an Everton Fan I wasn't that happy - but then it is Man Utd. My tribe before the nation and all that!).