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Question 1.

The humble IG grenade launcher - diamond in the rough or waste of credits?

Question 2.

The perfect heavy weapon to complement 3 grenade launchers in an IG veterans squad? Heavy Bolter or Autocannon?

I know everyone at WD seems to rave about the autocannon, but a higher rate of fire at BS4 surely has to count for something? OR could the grenade launchers combine effectively with the AC in an anti-tank role?

If anyone knows of any links that may answer these questions, id be much obliged.

cheers

cK

I think the grenade launcher is a fine weapon, nothing really wrong with it, I just find melta to be better. For twice the cost, you get half range, but the ability to put some major hurt on just about everything.

Also, It's generally accepted that the flamer is better than the GL because it's a bit more versatile. Sure you can attack high toughness creatures with a krack shot, but that's about all you can do. The regular shot is a blast, so sure enough if someone sees you pack a bunch of grenade launchers they will spread out a bit. With the flamer, you can generally cause a lot more wounds in a large variety of situations.

If your going to be using grenade launchers, give them to your CCS or PCS. That way that can safely stay in the back making pot shots while the rest of your forces lead the way into the meat grinder.

The GL is a staple in my platoon line squads, together with the autocannon..and yes it works well to help bring down light vehicles...the frag round also is good if enemy infantry (even marines) are tightly packed, the additional hits adding to the volume of fire which the IG excel in...

I do not use them though for veterans (in fact these days I rarely use veterans at all), as veterans for me as best used transported into battle fielding weapons where the bs4 will be more useful (ie meltas and plasma guns)....however, as of now I use the platoon command and special weapon squads to be my mobile component, with possibly a vet squad or 2 fielded in the same role, when I feel like it...

Also, I think people roll with the autocannon because it's pretty good against popping transports and other light vehicles. A bolter can do it, but it's just that much harder, being 2 points less in strength and all.

1.) waste.

2.) the perfect compliment to a vet squad with 3 grenade launchers is 15 more points so that you can turn them into meltaguns (or 30 more so that they can become plasma).

Ailaros wrote:1.) waste.

2.) the perfect compliment to a vet squad with 3 grenade launchers is 15 more points so that you can turn them into meltaguns (or 30 more so that they can become plasma).

Ah Ailaros for point number 1 I respectfully disagree with you, as I find them good in firebase squads.......BUT for veterans I would agree that the slots should be used for other weapons, as I have mentioned above...

I've just done a major reshift of my Guard and removed all the grenade launchers for more specialist weapons. Why? It doesn't harm infantry as well as a flamer and can't take out transports or tough troops as well as the plasma. I only take weapons that can not only work, but excel. The arguement could be that the Grenade launcher isn't as good at either role but it can perform both giving you flexibility. IG have more than enough Infantry squads however to specialise them for certain roles. It does work in numbers, but a plasma is devestating in numbers )=D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh btw, I absolutley hate flamers for their many short falls so if i've booted the 'Nade launchers for them there is a serious problem.

Deceiver wrote:I've just done a major reshift of my Guard and removed all the grenade launchers for more specialist weapons. Why? It doesn't harm infantry as well as a flamer and can't take out transports or tough troops as well as the plasma. I only take weapons that can not only work, but excel. The arguement could be that the Grenade launcher isn't as good at either role but it can perform both giving you flexibility. IG have more than enough Infantry squads however to specialise them for certain roles. It does work in numbers, but a plasma is devestating in numbers )=D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh btw, I absolutley hate flamers for their many short falls so if i've booted the 'Nade launchers for them there is a serious problem.

Shortfalls? Like what? I've made dedicated CC squads run in terror from a vet sqaud with three flamers in a flamer chimera (don't ask why I fielded vets with flamers)

Lack of Ap, short range, and the problem that short range brings. A smart opponant can stay out of their range and then move and assault next round negating a chance for you to fire without moving yourself.

Deceiver: A Smart opponent can Assault 24" in 1 turn... You are right that takes a VERY smart opponent.

Open topped vehicle(or one with Assault Ramps) - 12"
Disembarkation: roughly 3"(closer to 4 with larger based models)
Assault: 6"

Total distance: 21"-22"

unless you have a unit with Fleet, and manage a 3 or more on the run roll(which is not a guarantee)

Deceiver wrote:Lack of Ap, short range, and the problem that short range brings. A smart opponant can stay out of their range and then move and assault next round negating a chance for you to fire without moving yourself.

Ah, good point. I guess having a steel box around you helps out when using flamers and not getting your face stomped before you fire it.

um, Duh; I totally didn't pay attention to what deceiver was talking about. I assumed he was still talking about Grenade launchers, not Flamers.

Of Course if you are taking Flamers you should be moving to engage the enemy

If you cause a wound with one, you are ahead. The problem is that you are unlikely to cause that one wound. Grenade Launchers haven't been good since 2nd ed. I would only recommend them if you truly have no idea what this squad will be shooting, and most of the time you should save the points to replace some other GL with a worthwhile weapon.

Nobody ever thinks 'uh oh, that unit has grenade launchers. Better be careful.' or 'How am I going to deal with all those GLs?' The weapon should probably be free. Then it would be good.

The grenade launcher is good if you want to threaten a wide range of targets very poorly. The rest of the weapons are if you want there to be at least one thing that the weapon threatens well.

In the end, you're talking about a single-shot, low strength, crappy AP weapon that doesn't ignore cover, in a world full of weapons that are multiple shot, high strength, good AP or ignore cover (or, in the case of plasma, three of those things).

The only advantage the grenade launcher gives is a 6" of extra range over plasma, but what does it matter that you can shoot farther away, if it's unlikely that your shot will do anything once it gets there?

Kommissar Kel wrote:um, Duh; I totally didn't pay attention to what deceiver was talking about. I assumed he was still talking about Grenade launchers, not Flamers.

Of Course if you are taking Flamers you should be moving to engage the enemy

I know you should be moving towards them but I have got a nasty case of the scarabs at the minute. When theirs two dozen flying around the battlefield waiting for a gap to get at my tanks I'd rather hold the line. Against most armies their workable. Unfortuantly my regular opponants a dedicated 'Cron

I simply use grenade launchers becuase, that's what the bltz came with tell my 12+ plasma/metlas come in from FW.

xlightscreen wrote:I simply use grenade launchers becuase, that's what the bltz came with tell my 12+ plasma/metlas come in from FW.

Yeah, this is kind of tragic, actually. I've got like 30 grenade launchers just sitting on the sprue, while I've got to fork over serious cash for real wepaons from bitz sites.

The SM sprues give melta and plasma to their basic troop sprues. Why no love for guard?

Deceiver wrote:I know you should be moving towards them but I have got a nasty case of the scarabs at the minute.

I think they have a creme for that

This is actually where grenade launchers come in handy; 4+ to get 2 wounds/ Base clipped; and a 5+ save will not help them much(try and get them in the open).

Flamers do tend to hurt them more, but again you have the problem of not being able to actually get those flamers to them. Might I recommend Eradicators + Hell hounds? Both grant 2 wounds/base under the respective Plastic(Marker/Template); ignore cover, and virtually guarantee those wounds(the Eradicators shots actually kill them out-right). Of course these would be a side-bar list tailored vs Necrons... so take that with a grain.

Ailaros wrote:

xlightscreen wrote:I simply use grenade launchers because, that's what the bltz came with tell my 12+ plasma/metlas come in from FW.

Yeah, this is kind of tragic, actually. I've got like 30 grenade launchers just sitting on the sprue, while I've got to fork over serious cash for real wepaons from bitz sites.

The SM sprues give melta and plasma to their basic troop sprues. Why no love for guard?

Maybe because grenade launchers are actually OK? For 5 points I truly believe they are...the next similar options are flamers and sniper rifles, so for the 5 pts I think the GL are the best choice for line squads. The other true option is the plasma gun....if it was 10 pts it would be in my squads with no second thought, but for 15 pts each...hmmmm....

Versus infantry, the potential to do wounds = to the small blast marker is what i think about, rather than the s3 and ap6. The s6 krak round is a good complement to the AC versus rhinos and monstrous creatures.

Again, I am talking about line squads here, not veterans, special weapon squads, and command squads, all mobile in chimeras or skimmers. In these the meltagun and flamer reign supreme....

Grenade Launchers are the third worst weapon in the imperial guard codex, 1st and 2nd being las pistols and lasguns, respectively.

Although then again, the lasgun is actually a super weapon in situations with FRFSRF...so let me remake the placings.

3rd. GL
2nd. Laspistol
1st. Deathstrike.

I found GL's pretty much a waste of time, I have run a SWS squad with them, and no matter who they come up against they just don't perform. One guy in a squad with a plasma gun usually kills more than they do.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:I found GL's pretty much a waste of time, I have run a SWS squad with them, and no matter who they come up against they just don't perform. One guy in a squad with a plasma gun usually kills more than they do.

That's the worse place to place GL. With SWS you want to make sure they count when you fire. GLs in line squads are more of a bonus..

to me the launcher is perhaps the single greatest weapon in the guard codex, I've seen it do more damage reliably than plasma guns, hit more often than meltaguns and be more useful than both combined in mobility since I can move and still fire 24", unlike both of the others.

I rate it higher than any special weapon and have never had one fail to do something spectacular.

This thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352036.page isn't a week old and is practically an identical subject.

However, in response to your query...

1) On Veterans it's a waste of their BS4. On PIS their usefulness increases somewhat.

2) I wouldn't put heavy weapons on Veterans either. If you *have* to have an answer I guess I'll say autocannons or, at a push, ML are the best heavies that synergise well with a GL.

L. Wrex


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Jaon wrote:Grenade Launchers are the third worst weapon in the imperial guard codex, 1st and 2nd being las pistols and lasguns, respectively.

Although then again, the lasgun is actually a super weapon in situations with FRFSRF...so let me remake the placings.

3rd. GL
2nd. Laspistol
1st. Deathstrike.

Errr...What? Justify this please. Lasguns are garbage. They improve marginally if given FRF but unless you have 30+ blobs getting the order (which, as opposed to the internet, not everyone runs) they are still garbage. Having to be reliant upon a leadership test for a *tiny* increase in firepower doesn't stop the lasgun being the joke that it is. Lasguns supplement the damage caused by the heavy/special weapons, not the other way around.

L. Wrex

Stella Cadente wrote:to me the launcher is perhaps the single greatest weapon in the guard codex, I've seen it do more damage reliably than plasma guns, hit more often than meltaguns and be more useful than both combined in mobility since I can move and still fire 24", unlike both of the others.

I rate it higher than any special weapon and have never had one fail to do something spectacular.

You must be having insanely good luck with your grenade launchers, then. If I had said luck with that weapon, I'd definitely consider taking them.

If you roll on average, though, it hits less often than plasma and does much less damage to vehicles or then either melta or plasma, and less damage against infantry than either plasma or flamers.

S6 isn't high enough strength to seriously challenge vehicles, AP4 isn't low enough to seriously challenge heavy infantry, and, in blast mode, AP6 without ignoring cover doesn't make it a serious weapon against light infantry...

I don't like the GL, for the reasons Ailaros mentioned. I actually like running Veteran Squads with Meltas. Give them a transport of your choice and see the enemy sweat as it approaches his line.

For a Heavy weapon to compliment the GL...I would go Bolter. Both are AP 4 if you count the Krak shot, and similar strength, so they should be firing at the same targets (armor 4 troops/weak MCs). The problem is one is assault and the other is heavy, which makes their mobility wasted on the squad that can't fire 5 points of gun if you move.

On to the lasgun argument - if you look at guns' profiles as the only point of contention, yeah, Lasguns are garbage. The worst in the game. If you look at what is actually USEFUL in the context of how it fits into your army, Lasguns are one of my favorites. You get BS3 Lasguns at 5 points a model, with the potential for an extra shot every turn and utilizing the otherwise "objective holding" blobs of the IG. I know Mech is the new sliced bread, but I love having a strong core of infantry holding the line with fire in their bellies and courage in their hearts (from the guard codex).

Ailaros wrote:S6 isn't high enough strength to seriously challenge vehicles,

say that to the last blood angel mech army I faced off against who had 6 rhinos blown apart by turn 3 just with nade launchers

Ailaros wrote:and, in blast mode, AP6 without ignoring cover doesn't make it a serious weapon against light infantry...

light infantry?, pfft please, blast mode is a terminator killer, I've killed droves of them, almost puts lasguns to shame, almost.

Once again, you've been insanely lucky with your grenade launchers, then. The above comments were assuming that you have average rolling.

best I could say with grenade launchers is it gives you the possibility of essentially getting a few extra attack dice in since you can use a template over just having that guardsmen have a lasgun, but like I said I'm still waiting for my plasma and meltas >.<.

And yes your probably getting lucky with your dice rolls, or your opponent is failing miserably in his saves.

Ailaros wrote:

xlightscreen wrote:I simply use grenade launchers becuase, that's what the bltz came with tell my 12+ plasma/metlas come in from FW.

Yeah, this is kind of tragic, actually. I've got like 30 grenade launchers just sitting on the sprue, while I've got to fork over serious cash for real wepaons from bitz sites.

The SM sprues give melta and plasma to their basic troop sprues. Why no love for guard?

Hey, at least you have the option. Back in my day, you had to buy a specific IG type to get plasma or melta. My Mordians came with GLs, and that made 3rd ED so painful until I just proxied.