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With the Haemoculus being a common HQ choice in any DE army, and with the large presence of Psychers in 40K, The Crucible of Malediction seems like a decent spending of points. Now with the new GK coming out, everyone is afraid. However, with the use of this wargear, and a decent roll couldn't you technically take out a good amount of Grey Knights? With all of them being Psychers (Not sure of the independent models LD value), wouldn't they all be effected by this? And if/when they fail, they will be instant deathed, and a very easy prey for Wyches. I'm thinking of throwing this in my All Comers list too due to the presence of Librarians and Rune Priests in just about every SM army out there.

Thoughts?

revackey wrote:Now with the new GK coming out, everyone is afraid.

Who? Only nubs.

However, with the use of this wargear, and a decent roll couldn't you technically take out a good amount of Grey Knights? With all of them being Psychers (Not sure of the independent models LD value), wouldn't they all be effected by this? And if/when they fail, they will be instant deathed, and a very easy prey for Wyches. I'm thinking of throwing this in my All Comers list too due to the presence of Librarians and Rune Priests in just about every SM army out there.

Thoughts?

Yeah, use the Malediction to remove their vehicles from the game, with a unit inside it as well. I can't wait to try it out

Buffo, your ability to help knows no bounds.




Rev: In the leaked dex it had the unit leader as the psyker as such, but in the official book it has them all as psykers.
so in effect, you can fire away and kill off quite a bit.

Now, a note to buffo, but you should know its short ranged if you have read the book (your commenting on here right? so you must have)
Now, why would they stay inside thier transports and not shoot or assault?
Common sense would suggest they will assault, which means not being in a transport to do so.

Rev: I say go for it and take one mate.
not stupidly expensive on points, and not enough to really make it situational.
so even if its not used, it wont hurt.

Yup, I'm thinking of working one into my next list, when is the codex hitting shelves? Any idea on a LD value?

Most enemy psykers are LD9 or LD10; Grey Knights are no exception. With a few exceptions (Brotherhood of Psykers) you're looking at LD10.

Hmm still worth a shot you think Dash? I would need to kill around 2 GK's to make back the points. Not sure if a Liquifer would still be a better choice.

I am sure a vindicare could put a stop to whatever you people are talking about. I have the DE codex but am yet to touch it, as I was never interested (its a friend of mines) so I will go and have a look.

I've never considered 40k as a game where things need to kill their points value to be worth taking.

- Removed. Play nice, or take your ball home - Wait and see on the Crucible/GK transport nuking via YMDC and FAQs before going berzerk.

Also, the Crucible is only 3D6 range and once per game use. If I'm playing a psyker army (GK) and I see a crucible in your list, I'm gonna ask, "Where is your crucible?" And when you point to the vehicle with it, I'm going to blow it out of the sky first turn.

Jaon wrote:I am sure a vindicare could put a stop to whatever you people are talking about. I have the DE codex but am yet to touch it, as I was never interested (its a friend of mines) so I will go and have a look.

It is wargear on an HQ, he'd be in a Raider, so the Vindicare would have to pop that, then the HQ.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've never considered 40k as a game where things need to kill their points value to be worth taking.

... Wait and see on the Crucible/GK transport nuking via YMDC and FAQs before going berzerk.

Also, the Crucible is only 3D6 range and once per game use. If I'm playing a psyker army (GK) and I see a crucible in your list, I'm gonna ask, "Where is your crucible?" And when you point to the vehicle with it, I'm going to blow it out of the sky first turn.

Very good points Dash, your making me rethink taking one, perhaps I'll do a test game first. If their LD is 10/9 they would have to roll terribly to die... maybe I'll stick with a shattershard...

revackey wrote:

Jaon wrote:I am sure a vindicare could put a stop to whatever you people are talking about. I have the DE codex but am yet to touch it, as I was never interested (its a friend of mines) so I will go and have a look.

It is wargear on an HQ, he'd be in a Raider, so the Vindicare would have to pop that, then the HQ.

Dashofpepper wrote:I've never considered 40k as a game where things need to kill their points value to be worth taking.

... Wait and see on the Crucible/GK transport nuking via YMDC and FAQs before going berzerk.

Also, the Crucible is only 3D6 range and once per game use. If I'm playing a psyker army (GK) and I see a crucible in your list, I'm gonna ask, "Where is your crucible?" And when you point to the vehicle with it, I'm going to blow it out of the sky first turn.

Very good points Dash, your making me rethink taking one, perhaps I'll do a test game first. If their LD is 10/9 they would have to roll terribly to die... maybe I'll stick with a shattershard...

In the real book (in stores), the brotherhood of psykers rule specifically states that any attacks that target psykers will be directed against the Justicar/Knight of the Flame, if neither are alive, a random model within the unit. So you won't get to force every model to take an LD check, just 1 per unit (the sgt, who probably has the hammer/special weapon if it's basic GKSS's).

You won't suck transports into a rules black rules loop hole as indicated by a previous poster either, destroying the squad.

But you should still take one if you're already using an hq able to. Even if they nuke it first turn to stop you from using it, it's only 20 points. You've forced your opponent to play your game and focus more fire then he'd like to, just to stop the crucible. If it does get in range, you stand a fair chance at popping the sgt's from a bunch of units, and hurting some vehicles. The fear factor/tactical advantage is worth 20 points IMO.

Edit: I should mention that the above statement is only valid if you see a fair smattering of GK spring up in your local metagame, if you don't, it isn't worth it.

Does anyone have a percentage statistic that you could work into the argument for taking the CoM for an army and apply it to a typical (read: what you expect to see) army of GK?

I'm going to have to see how many GK, there are, true, I think I'll stick with a shattershard until the release.

I second that, a percentage would be cool too.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Buffo, your ability to help knows no bounds.

I know!

I say go with shattershard since it has applications vs more opponents than the crucible. Like Dash says, that transport with crucible is going to be public enemy #1.

The Cruicible doesn't effect GK vehicles as they don't have a LD value and as such will never take Ld tests under any circumstances.



Gk vehicles count as being Ld10 for Psychic powers only. they never have a Ld value at any time.

Grey Templar wrote:The Cruicible doesn't effect GK vehicles as they don't have a LD value and as such will never take Ld tests under any circumstances.



Gk vehicles count as being Ld10 for Psychic powers only. they never have a Ld value at any time.

Just keep in mind...

"Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

from
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...ersion_1_1.pdf

A Crucible will remove a Furioso Librarian, so why wouldn't it remove a GK vehicle? Yes, I know the FAQ from one book does not transfer to another, but you can bet that this is how I will be playing, and that when a FAQ comes out, this outcome will be the same for GK.

It will be funny watching a GK vehicle get removed from the table, along with any passengers inside. Of course, I also hope that the unit inside the vehicle is forced disembarked if this happens. I think it would be ridiculous to kill the unit inside along with the tank.

the Gk codex has way different wording from the Furioso entry.

the Gk codex says "Treated as Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods"

the Furioso says "treated as Ld10 for all psychic purposes"

What's the wording on the crucible? If the crucible removes psychic models from play if they don't pass a leadership test then it would remove psychic vehicles from play if they don't pass a leadership test.

"Treated as LD10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods" doesn't make a unit immune to the crucible. If the psychic unit needs to pass a leadership test to avoid being removed from play, and the argument is it doesn't have a leadership stat to pass the test with the result is the vehicle is auto removed from play with no roll as it did not pass the test.

GK players are better off taking the test than opening that can of worms.

Grey Templar wrote:the Gk codex has way different wording from the Furioso entry.

the Gk codex says "Treated as Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods"

the Furioso says "treated as Ld10 for all psychic purposes"

I can see the difference here. I agree with that. Here are just some points to keep in mind.

1) As of now, a Crucible cannot affect a GK Vehicle. For me, I would need a FAQ to clarify this. My mind has been changed.

2) Despite the wording of the rule for GK vehicles, it has been shown in the BA FAQ that the game is not above vehicles falling prey to anti-psyker weaponry.

3) If a FAQ does state that GK Vehicles are affected just like the BA Librarian Dreds, I do hope that the passengers inside do not go with the vehicle.

BuFFo wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Gk codex has way different wording from the Furioso entry.

the Gk codex says "Treated as Ld10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods"

the Furioso says "treated as Ld10 for all psychic purposes"

I can see the difference here. I agree with that. Here are just some points to keep in mind.

1) As of now, a Crucible cannot affect a GK Vehicle. For me, I would need a FAQ to clarify this. My mind has been changed.

2) Despite the wording of the rule for GK vehicles, it has been shown in the BA FAQ that the game is not above vehicles falling prey to anti-psyker weaponry.

3) If a FAQ does state that GK Vehicles are affected just like the BA Librarian Dreds, I do hope that the passengers inside do not go with the vehicle.

1) The Vehicle is a psyker. The crucible effects psykers. The vehicle is affected.

2) Does anybody really expect GW to FAQ GK differently?

3) RAW=All passengers are removed from play. The RAI is very obvious in this case. RAI=vehicle crew is dead=Vehicle is wrecked and remains in play as a wreck. But if you're going to play RAI then a crucible should be able to affect passengers just as a psychic hood or shadow of the warp can affect a passenger attempting to use a psychic power.

Could you show where the vehicle (GK) is a psyker, with a quote?

schadenfreude wrote:1) The Vehicle is a psyker. The crucible effects psykers. The vehicle is affected.

GK Vehicles do not have a LD value, which is my point. Neither does a BA dred, but it took a FAQ to fix the BA issue. You cannot take a LD test on a model that does not have and LD Value.

3) The RAI is very obvious in this case.

You can't know designer intent.

GK vehicles will most definately be affected by this and I fail to see how it's a big deal. The average range of the Crucible is just a bit over 10 inches and like Dash said the GK armies are absolutely filled with guns that can blow up both the paper plane and the guy carrying it first turn. If you're not getting first turn you can still deploy far back enough to avoid its effects altogether.

...or you can just take one or two of those LD10 tests on your 80 point Razorbacks and stop being so scared that you have to try to rules lawyer your way out of taking the test.

the problem is those 80 point razorbacks also have a 200+ point unit inside.



The wording of the GK psychic pilot rule is very different from the BA furioso.


aside from taking psychic tests and psychic hoods, a GK vehicle is just an ordinary vehicle.



and the Crucible fails on another point. it effects psykers and GK vehicles are NOT psykers. they have the Psychic Pilot special rule which is not the Psyker special rule.

Grey Templar wrote:The wording of the GK psychic pilot rule is very different from the BA furioso.


aside from taking psychic tests and psychic hoods, a GK vehicle is just an ordinary vehicle.
and the Crucible fails on another point. it effects psykers and GK vehicles are NOT psykers. they have the Psychic Pilot special rule which is not the Psyker special rule.

I would give you advice to READ the codex (both GK and BA) before implying anything else in this thread. both rules go like Word to Word...

penek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The wording of the GK psychic pilot rule is very different from the BA furioso.


aside from taking psychic tests and psychic hoods, a GK vehicle is just an ordinary vehicle.
and the Crucible fails on another point. it effects psykers and GK vehicles are NOT psykers. they have the Psychic Pilot special rule which is not the Psyker special rule.

I would give you advice to READ the codex (both GK and BA) before implying anything else in this thread. both rules go like Word to Word...

BA: A furioso librarian is a psyker,...and is treated as ld10 for all psychic purposes.

GK (psychic pilot rule): A vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker (mastery level 1) and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Those wordings look pretty different to me. They don't "go word to word" so you may want to re-read them yourself.

BA are psykers, and are ld10 for all psychic purposes. GK are treated as being a psyker and ld 10 for the purposes of psy tests and hoods. Not for anything else. One is a psyker all the time, the other is only for tests and hoods.

either way, the GK isn't a psyker at the time the Cruicible is activated.

So if a GK vehicle is not a psyker, its powers can't be cancelled by a psychic hood?

I must say I see no real difference between a Furioso Dread and a GK rhino; both have vehicle statlines and an assigned Ld values for the purposes of using and being targets of powers. Leave it to Matt Ward to be inconsistent even between two of his own books!

Ugh, this will need a FAQ. As will several other aspect of the codex, it seems.

I know this means nothing (being common sense) but it's a bit silly that the vehicle has a psychic pilot that can somehow be unaffected by an item that affects psykers.... So the driver is immune?

Sephyr wrote:So if a GK vehicle is not a psyker, its powers can't be cancelled by a psychic hood?

I must say I see no real difference between a Furioso Dread and a GK rhino; both have vehicle statlines and an assigned Ld values for the purposes of using and being targets of powers. Leave it to Matt Ward to be inconsistent even between two of his own books!

Ugh, this will need a FAQ. As will several other aspect of the codex, it seems.

Read the bolded part of my post above. The GK vehicles with psychic pilot only count as psykers for the purposes of psychic tests, and psychic hoods.

So yes, you can still hood them.