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so ive been in this hobby for about a year now, and due to a particularly long string of losses i am really starting to doubt my abilities to play wargames effectively, which is causing me to want to leave, i need help, because i have invested too much time and money to just call it quits like this, but at the same time, im tired of losing, my losing streak just hit 35 games last week, idk what im doing wrong, everyone tells me my lists are fine and my strategy is decent, but i dont think so. also, it seems like rules that i have been using since i started are suddenly changing (talking about 40k) for no particular reason, just that appearantly people are now enterpretting the rulebook differently. anyone else ever been in this predicament before? and how did you fix it?

Not sure what to tell you but 35 losses in a row is pretty bad. I guess I would suggest start taking notes from now on when you play. Ask people you really trust what they think is going wrong.

I hate to say it but at 35 straight losses you are way beyond having a string of bad luck. Some other things you can do is post up your army list on the forums here and ask people what they think about it. If you do this though be prepared to take some serious constructive criticism.

The last thing you need to think about is if none of this helps you may just be bad at the wargames and what this means to you. Do you have to win to enjoy the game or can you just enjoy a good game? These are very personal questions and only you can decide how you want to continue or not continue with the game. But a the very least try to get better before you decide to stop playing.

Run on sentence of the year right here. Work on your punctuation a bit.

How long has this losing streak been going? Having a long losing streak can get really, REALLY discouraging. Even just losing half a dozen games in a row sucks, not to mention 35.

I'm looking through some of your army lists and came across this one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/350200.page
Grenade launchers on vets is not good. Use those points on a decent infantry platoon to hold objectives, or swap their weapons out for meltas/plasmas. Also, don't reserve your long range artillery. Ordnance Barrage can't fire the turn it moves, and you're just wasting their potential. Hide them out of sight and don't move them ever. Missile launchers aren't great on sentinels; autocannons and multilasers are better for side armor sniping (due to high rate of fire) and heavy flamers are great for wiping out troops. I also wouldn't get an Astropath unless you had a lot of reserves, which you don't.

Sorry if that's an awful lot of list critique, which isn't what this post is about. Just remember: Every unit should have a dedicated "job" to make sure nothing is wasted. What are your local opponents like? What armies do you face usually? Are they really tournament-happy folks? For all we know you're the lone "casual" guy in a WAAC environment. When in doubt, refine your strategy and army list. If that fails, get new dice

Brother SRM wrote:When in doubt, refine your strategy and army list. If that fails, get new dice

Seriously I don't usually advocate cheating but you might want to get some dice that only roll 6s.......

sorry about the run on, i forget where the . is sometimes and ill post my current 1500 list (the one where i get the closest to drawing with) and input would be wonderful. the ordnance rule i know, but for almost a year we ruled it as "if it moves, it cannot indirect fire, but can direct fire" which threw me off when my close friends started saying i was cheating, when i was just playing the way we have always been playing. and about the GL's on vets, i currently only run them on one vet squad because they have nice range, are the cheapest upgrade, and are good against most Heavy infantry other than MEQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ:
CCS 155
4 meltas
Plasma pistol
Chimera w/ hull flamer

CCS 155
4 meltas
Plasma pistol
Chimera w/ hull flamer

Troops:

platoon
PCS 105
4 flamers
chimera w/ hull flamer

InfS 65
flamer
Power sword
InfS 65
flamer
Power sword
infS 100
flamer
power sword
commissar

HWS 75
3 AC’s

HWS 90
3 ML’s

HWS 105
3 LC’s

Vet Squad 150
Harker
3 GL’s
HB
Heavy support 300
Leman russ tank

Leman russ tank

Fast Attack

Hellhound flame tank w/hull flamer 130

total: 1495

I have to reiterate - grenade launchers are a waste on vets. Take plasma guns instead. I run Harker with 3 plasma guns and it's always a great outflanking unit. Make up the points by dropping the missile launcher heavy weapon squad to an autocannon squad or something similar.

You should try posting a battle report or two; it could really help folks see where games go wrong for you.

Ok, ill try to post a batrep this Thursday.

I know Sacto well. I play when I'm there for business. The kinds of games up there are pretty brutal. You have to be on your competitive edge all of the time (since I knew nobody up there, it felt like that to me).

Brother SRM has given you some good advice (IMHO).

You might want to try to play in another area to see what gaming styles are being played.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
You might want to try to play in another area to see what gaming styles are being played.

i play regularly in 3 places, one is not competitive, one is semi competitive, and the one i rarely go to is probably the place you went, which is the most competitive. i think it just comes down to that i suck.

Keep the mantra going.

"It's only a game.".

Win/lose, it doesn't matter. What matter is if you learn ANYTHING from the games. Once you gain competence, then you can keep track of wins/losses. Before that, it's an ever widening downward spiral.

I've lost more games than I've won (but I'm a modeller who only games to put the little guys I've painted on the table and don't particularly care if they win or not). Hell, I've drawn more games than I've won.

I probably had a losing streak like that when I started (I have atrocious luck unless I totally wing it. Which I can't do in a TTG as you have to have SOMETHING planned - like your list - first, which removes the chances of completely winging it).

If winning was that important to me, I'd have quit before I'd accumulated so much crap.

Grenade launchers on vets are pants-down bad.

Are you using your orders? In the right order and priority?

chromedog wrote:Keep the mantra going.

"It's only a game.".

Win/lose, it doesn't matter. What matter is if you learn ANYTHING from the games. Once you gain competence, then you can keep track of wins/losses. Before that, it's an ever widening downward spiral.

I've lost more games than I've won (but I'm a modeller who only games to put the little guys I've painted on the table and don't particularly care if they win or not). Hell, I've drawn more games than I've won.

I probably had a losing streak like that when I started (I have atrocious luck unless I totally wing it. Which I can't do in a TTG as you have to have SOMETHING planned - like your list - first, which removes the chances of completely winging it).

If winning was that important to me, I'd have quit before I'd accumulated so much crap.

Grenade launchers on vets are pants-down bad.

Are you using your orders? In the right order and priority?

Solid advice.

What also gets me through the local tourney is winning the best-painted.

I play in an area with 10,000 ADF, many who play. 99.9% of my opponents are alpha-male WAAC players.

I enjoy being beaten by armies of grey or poorly-painted because I pay $20 and walk out with a trophy guaranteed.

Hi all.
This is general advise for keeping any hobby alive.
Look for the bright corners that give you pleasure.

Look and what you craft, does it please you, then its good.

When playing a game look for the small victories , everything you get right , every heroic takedown or valiant last stand, the end result should not be the focus of the game , unless you want to to be.

(Thats the cool thing about narrative games, you tend to get caught up in the story , and the final score seems to be less important.)

40k tends to be more strategicaly focused than other wargames.So what players bring to the table has a much greater influence on the outcome than other games.

And as you invest very heavily in your army , if winning is important to you.I suggest you look for advise from fellow players on the internet BEFORE you buy stuff.

TTFN

The changing rules thing can be annoying. For a while, I used to lose games because my opponent would point out where we had been misinterpreting rules half way through a game.

There's nothing more annoying than suddenly finding out that your key strategy has suddenly been deemed illegal by the group; it's no help to argue that you've been playing it the wrong way all along.

So, I made myself a pot of coffee, got my rulebooks and FAQs out, and re-read them all. It's why I started coming to Dakka. It's a pain, but you should probably do this with your preferred units. Then, when they argue the toss, you have to dig in your heels and argue back. This isn't a problem for most gamers, but if you're the kind of person who prefers to avoid arguments (and your OP suggests you take their rules interpretations at face value), you'll end up having the rules interpreted against you most times.

So, for your list, you need to look up the rules for tanks/ordnance, flamers and transports. You might find they've missed a few rules that count in your favour. If your group got it wrong earlier, they may have a few things wrong now.

(My example was the bunker rules. Couldn't work out how to use orks to flush out SMs. Until I looked up the rules for flamers and buildings.)

In addition, if you use the same list each time, your opponents will know how to beat it. Are you learning from mistakes? How much have you varied things in the past 35 games?

Hope this helps. If all else fails, field comedy lists. It makes things entertaining, and scares your opponents.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
This is general advise for keeping any hobby alive.
Look for the bright corners that give you pleasure.

Look and what you craft, does it please you, then its good.

When playing a game look for the small victories , everything you get right , every heroic takedown or valiant last stand, the end result should not be the focus of the game , unless you want to to be.

(Thats the cool thing about narrative games, you tend to get caught up in the story , and the final score seems to be less important.)

40k tends to be more strategicaly focused than other wargames.So what players bring to the table has a much greater influence on the outcome than other games.

And as you invest very heavily in your army , if winning is important to you.I suggest you look for advise from fellow players on the internet BEFORE you buy stuff.

TTFN

and if even this fails to motivate and inspire, you really do not want to be doing this hobby and should sell your army cheap on Dakka

jordanis wrote: but for almost a year we ruled it as "if it moves, it cannot indirect fire, but can direct fire" which threw me off when my close friends started saying i was cheating, when i was just playing the way we have always been playing.

Your friends seem a wee bit harsh there. Are you playing against a power gamer with crafty hidden cheat-skills?

"but for almost a year we ruled it as "if it moves, it cannot indirect fire, but can direct fire" which threw me off when my close friends started saying i was cheating, when i was just playing the way we have always been playing."


for that phrase..

If your talking about the basalisk type tanks that state they are indirect fire..

They can still direct fire.. so you can move and direct fire... or stay still and indirect.. you were playing it correcly.

Many people at start of the new IG codex were getting that wrong that you couldn't.

Spyder68 wrote:"but for almost a year we ruled it as "if it moves, it cannot indirect fire, but can direct fire" which threw me off when my close friends started saying i was cheating, when i was just playing the way we have always been playing."


for that phrase..

If your talking about the basalisk type tanks that state they are indirect fire..

They can still direct fire.. so you can move and direct fire... or stay still and indirect.. you were playing it correcly.

Many people at start of the new IG codex were getting that wrong that you couldn't.

Are you serious?! Heads are gonna be rolling this Thursday....

Also, what advise do y'all have for going up against aircav guard?

jordanis wrote:
Also, what advise do y'all have for going up against aircav guard?

Autocannons are solid at taking out aircraft, and a Hydra is even better if you can convert one. Hydras are cheap and ignore the cover save skimmers get from moving flat out. Fire on my Target! or Bring it Down! on an autocannon team can really mess up a Valkyrie's day. The key is to blow them up as far away from you as possible. This way, the expensive, squishy Guardsmen inside need to slog across the field on foot, where you can obliterate them with just about anything stronger than a stiff breeze.

Dude, i feel your pain. Ive been playing on and off for nearly 20 years and very rarely win!
But i keep coming back for more, again and again and again! I guess im just a sucker for punishment!. I can only reitarate whats been said on this thread by a few people. It's only a game! Just enjoy it! Peace.....

jordanis Wrote:

i play regularly in 3 places, one is not competitive, one is semi competitive, and the one i rarely go to is probably the place you went, which is the most competitive. i think it just comes down to that i suck.

Nobody really sucks. When the Daemon Codex came out I lost 32 consecutive times before winning a Game. With Tau, my odds of winning in my game area is really hard, but I still play them as well as my Non Monolith Necron Army, because I do not have the pressure to win. Just to have fun is what I look for now. Right now I think your mindset is effecting your game play, Listen to Brother SRM and others in here to help you out with your army.

Another thing that you should do. Ask questions here in Daka Daka. You will learn a lot more here perhaps than the area you are playing in.

But Above all remember my Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun.

AvatarForm wrote:

and if even this fails to motivate and inspire, you really do not want to be doing this hobby and should sell your army cheap on Dakka

That's totally clever and original. I've never seen that kind of reply before.



Really? That's what you're going with?

On Topic: Your inspiration to play is entirely yours. It's entirely possible that you're playing at a location over-run by WAAC-job cheesesticks and you need to find a better place with players that don't use toy soldiers to make up for their poor life-game.

Full Disclosure: I don't even really play any of the games anymore. (maybe once a month tops). And that's being at my local GW store 3+ days a week 8 hrs+ per session, but it's all spent painting.

Worglock wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

and if even this fails to motivate and inspire, you really do not want to be doing this hobby and should sell your army cheap on Dakka

That's totally clever and original. I've never seen that kind of reply before.



Really? That's what you're going with?

On Topic: Your inspiration to play is entirely yours. It's entirely possible that you're playing at a location over-run by WAAC-job cheesesticks and you need to find a better place with players that don't use toy soldiers to make up for their poor life-game.

Full Disclosure: I don't even really play any of the games anymore. (maybe once a month tops). And that's being at my local GW store 3+ days a week 8 hrs+ per session, but it's all spent painting.

Why not?

We have given him every reason to quit whining and get back into it. If that is not enough, then the OP does not really wish to continue the hobby. Not for his own purposes or anyone else's.

Are you playing the same person over and over again?
Do they clarify the rules? I.e. are they telling you the right information.

When I first started playing it was difficult for me to win, because the guy who I played against (50% of the time) 'knew' a lot more than me...

Get some ratlings....lots of ratlings.

I understand your pain. I went 6 months in my 40k gaming career in 3rd edition without a win and that was considering 9 games a month minimum. I finally tied a game but I basically swallowed my pride with my losses and carefully examined what to do better. Though it didn't help I was constantly playing some competitive gamers back to the likes of Marc Parker, and some founding members of the wrecking crew. But through that I was able to become very good at playing and sometimes losing teaches you a very harsh lesson. IG is a great army but the learning curve is tough.

avatarform: the only reason i am continuing this thread is for the purposes of discussion, i have refound a joy in this hobby that i had been too busy moving to do: scratchbuilding. also, your first statement is not appreciated, and i find it rude and inconsiderate.

@thehod: ouch, thats one fat losing streak...

@ everyone else: thanks for all your input, it has inspired me (besides avatarform) and GW thanks you too for convincing a customer to not stop buying overpriced plastic

Listen to podcasts like 40k Radio and Independent Characters.

I'm always motivated to paint or play when I listen to these guys.

On returning to the hobby after many years away, I started up by playing against two old friends, with my brand new orks (I was an eldar player back in 2nd ed) and I was being slaughtered every single game. The first friend fielded a marine list and playstyle of shooting/castling and the second played gunline tau.

After a good few thrashings, I abandoned my green tide style and got into the battlewagon rush (after tinkering with trukks and learning how pointless they are as a principal transport) and, slowly but surely, the learning curve was overcome. Soon I watched my opponents changing their tactics and lists to adapt to mine, my lists changed again.

It should be an organic process, a learning curve. Keep watching the game for things that work well, keep notes of what doesn't and reduce/remove them. Understand who your regular opponents are and what lists they run and if they are using hard tourney lists, you should bring the same or a perfect foil list to that list.

If winning is important to you, and certainly anyone should be craving a win after 35 losses, it's probably time for you to take the next steps towards that win.

What are those steps?

1.) Know the rules inside and out.
Read the big red book, front to back, several times. come to the point where you know it inside and out. If something is unclear, google it, if google can't find the answer, then come to Dakka and ask. This is the first step to winning. You cannot make a winning move unless you know the rules and you can have to wool pulled over your eyes if you aren't clear on the rules.

2.) Know your army inside and out.
Memorize your army's codex. Understand every ability they have. Watch/Read Batreps until you can't find anymore. Study winning army lists. Build the best army list you can come up with and then let Dakka tear it down for you. Rebuild it again. Make 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 point army lists to practice your list making ability. If you know yourself, then you are half way to winning.

3.) Play. A lot. And without ego.
After you have 1 and 2 down, go play again. Keep it cool. Don't invest your whole being in every roll you make. Don't get red in the face at every model your opponent kills. Just play to play. Play to enjoy the mechanics, the terrain, the models, the culture. And just do what you know you should.

You follow all three of those suggestions, I can promise you, you will win a game, if not a string of games.

But you have to honestly tackle 1 and 2 and get em right. Otherwise all bets are off.

I heard an amusing tale on the radio yesterday of a chap who had finally beaten his brothers at golf for the first time in 51 years at the weekend.

OP your loosing streak is not that bad.

I know exactly how you feel, my Iron Warriors are yet to get a single win.

Annoyingly, my local group can't seem to grasp the "narrative battle" thing. It's always about MUST WIN MUST WIN MUST INFLATE EGO.