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Hello, I know that Gretchin cannot get mob rule because their runt herders no longer have it, but what about a unit of Gretchin with a warboss or big mek, would they get mob rule from the warboss/big mek? All input is appreciated, thanks!

The sight of someone running a warboss with a squad of Gretchin would be quite comical.

I was thinking of putting 18 gretchin and a runt hearder with a warboss in a battle wagon

If i remember right a fearless character grants it to any unit he is with.

If this is right (no rulebook on hand) then you would have a fearless unit IF the warboss was fearless.

I don't think they come with the fearless rule though, and i'm fairly sure grots don't count for mob rule.

You could try with Grotsnik. I think he's fearless ?

Unfortunately not. Codex Orks says that for mob rule to work, you substitute the highest LD for the number of orks in the unit. Gretchin aren't orks.

I learnt this to my annoyance when turn 1 of my last game, my 20 Gretchin, 2 runtherds and big Mek with shokk attack gun got tank shocked, and went screaming off the table edge before they could fire a shot.

Grethin/Runt herds don't have mob rule; FAQ errata : "Page 50 and 100 – Runtherds.
The special rules ‘Waaagh!’ and ‘Mob Rule’
should be deleted."

Furthermore mob rule says to substitue the number of "Orks", and gretchin are not considered "Orks"(they are Gretchin or grots).

Finally even if you could consider the number of Grots as orks, the only model that would become Fearless is the Warboss, and Fearless ICs that join non-fearless units lose fearless(BRB page 75).

you will never get fearless grots.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
you will never get fearless grots.

Just you wait, one day there'll pop up an Ork Kaplain who'll teach da grotz ta fight wiffout fear!

Put Mad Dok in with them and they would be fearless and potentially cyborked as well!

Forgot about Mad dok; at least then you will not have a Line of grots across the field(not for long anyways) as they all gain OSS and have to individually move towards the closest unit as fast as possible.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
you will never get fearless grots.

you already have them, they are called killa kanz in the HS section.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:Unfortunately not. Codex Orks says that for mob rule to work, you substitute the highest LD for the number of orks in the unit. Gretchin aren't orks.

I learnt this to my annoyance when turn 1 of my last game, my 20 Gretchin, 2 runtherds and big Mek with shokk attack gun got tank shocked, and went screaming off the table edge before they could fire a shot.

I'm just sort of curious how your 20 Gretchin got tank shokked on turn 1 before they could fire? That's really unlucky... even without Mob Rule you have the Ld 8 of the Big Mek and a Squighound to re-roll if you fail.

I think every Ork player has a funny story like this one though. My best ones always start with "So I fired the Shokk Attack Gun... "

Murrdox wrote:

The_Happy_Pig wrote:Unfortunately not. Codex Orks says that for mob rule to work, you substitute the highest LD for the number of orks in the unit. Gretchin aren't orks.

I learnt this to my annoyance when turn 1 of my last game, my 20 Gretchin, 2 runtherds and big Mek with shokk attack gun got tank shocked, and went screaming off the table edge before they could fire a shot.

I'm just sort of curious how your 20 Gretchin got tank shokked on turn 1 before they could fire? That's really unlucky... even without Mob Rule you have the Ld 8 of the Big Mek and a Squighound to re-roll if you fail.

I think every Ork player has a funny story like this one though. My best ones always start with "So I fired the Shokk Attack Gun... "

Playing Blood angels with their stupid fast tanks. And he managed to seize the initiative from me. Never mind. I managed to make Dante run off screaming like a little girl a bit later in the game.

Well, he IS a little girl

Well played.

Yeah, BA fast red tanks... can't THINK where they might have got that idea from...

Its a dumb idea, but I see an interesting loop hole, since gretchin DO count as orks for mob rule (No where in their profile does it say otherwise, otherwise a "nob" wouldn't be an ork, nor would anything else unless it was specifically titled "ork") so the other part of mob rule would kick in since the warboss cannot be fearless (i.e. ld 10 with 10 Gretchin)... but what I do not understand is the wording of mob rule, as it says "Ork mobs may always chose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value"-pg 31 of Codex: Orks.

So, it seems to convey, at least to me, that everyone in the unit would gets fearless, not just the model with mob rule. But still this is a rather long stretch in my opinion...

Brood Lord wrote:Its a dumb idea, but I see an interesting loop hole, since gretchin DO count as orks for mob rule (No where in their profile does it say otherwise, otherwise a "nob" wouldn't be an ork, nor would anything else unless it was specifically titled "ork") so the other part of mob rule would kick in since the warboss cannot be fearless (i.e. ld 10 with 10 Gretchin)... but what I do not understand is the wording of mob rule, as it says "Ork mobs may always chose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value"-pg 31 of Codex: Orks.

So, it seems to convey, at least to me, that everyone in the unit would gets fearless, not just the model with mob rule. But still this is a rather long stretch in my opinion...

Still no, because ICs do not convey fearless to non-fearless units. Grots do not have mob rules, nor does the Runtherd, so you can never get a fearless unit of grots(outside of attaching the mad doc).

Brood Lord wrote:... I see an interesting loop hole, since gretchin DO count as orks for mob rule (No where in their profile does it say otherwise, otherwise a "nob" wouldn't be an ork, nor would anything else unless it was specifically titled "ork")

Not every Tau unit says TAU in the name, but nobodies going to argue that Kroot are fishies.

There are four "Race"s in the Ork horde: Ork, Grotlin, Snotling, and Squig.

So those units that haven't been errata'd (Grots, Stormboyz, and Deffkoptas, IIRC) can count Ork models in the unit and use that count as the highest Leadership value. As my buddy likes to prove, this means that you can't pin 12+ orks. ever.

ERRATA - FAQ_Orks_2010.pdf - http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490295a_FAQ_Orks_2010.pdf

Stormboyz and Deffkoptas just lost the "Waagh!" rule, not the Mob rule.

kommisar kel, the warboss does not convay the fearless rule to them, but in theory Mob Rule gives the "mob" the fearless rule, since mob rule does not say any where that a "model" (i.e. singular) gets the fearless rule, but the mob (plural) get the rule. The big red book says than an IC that joins a unit without the fearless rule then loses the rule, but as i have said before, the "mob" gains the fearless rule, but the warboss does not have the fearless rule, he has Mob rule, which aplies to the entire unit (mob).

My entire reason for saying that the Grechen would get fearless is entirely based off the wording of "Mob Rule", and i entirely agree that the warboss would not give the unit fearless (firstly beacause he does not have the rule), however Mob Rule would give them fearless, otherwise the other half of mob rule would kick in and you would have a Ld 34 unit (30 grots, 3 runthearders, and the warboss), which is fine by me.


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on a second note Bounty, their is one thing that can pin a unit of 12+ orks... C'tan! (you can't pin them, but you can force them to make a Pinnig Test or they all suffer wounds if i recall correctly, but still it's a little off topic, but very funny to do to ork & tyranid hordes).

Brood Lord wrote:kommisar kel, the warboss does not convay the fearless rule to them, but in theory Mob Rule gives the "mob" the fearless rule, since mob rule does not say any where that a "model" (i.e. singular) gets the fearless rule, but the mob (plural) get the rule. The big red book says than an IC that joins a unit without the fearless rule then loses the rule, but as i have said before, the "mob" gains the fearless rule, but the warboss does not have the fearless rule, he has Mob rule, which aplies to the entire unit (mob).

My entire reason for saying that the Grechen would get fearless is entirely based off the wording of "Mob Rule", and i entirely agree that the warboss would not give the unit fearless (firstly beacause he does not have the rule), however Mob Rule would give them fearless, otherwise the other half of mob rule would kick in and you would have a Ld 34 unit (30 grots, 3 runthearders, and the warboss), which is fine by me.

Gretchin are not Orks, so they will not count towards Mob rule. Only the number of orks counts, so the LD per mob rule would be 4. There is no way to get either big gunz or gretchin mobs to 11 or more orks in a regular game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
on a second note Bounty, their is one thing that can pin a unit of 12+ orks... C'tan! (you can't pin them, but you can force them to make a Pinnig Test or they all suffer wounds if i recall correctly, but still it's a little off topic, but very funny to do to ork & tyranid hordes).

You can choose whether you take a moral test or a pinning test. 12+ orks would still have an LD of 10 with a reroll, plus they would rally automatically in the rare case of a failed moral test. No reason to get pinned. No wounds suffered whatsoever.

Whether gretchin contribute to Mob rule on the warboss or not does not matter, the Gretchin unit(as a whole, including Runtherds) does not have mob rule, so were the gretchin to contribute to the IC's mob rule(all of them have it) you have an IC that is fearless(for a Ld of up to 30, that caps at 10 and grants fearless for any value over 10) and a unit that is Ld 5, with Ld 7 runtherds. Now they will still benefit from the IC's Ld 10 in this case(if we assume that the gretchin do contribute, or a warboss is the IC in question); but the unit will not be fearless unless it has an IC that specifically grants fearless.

This is the same as how the grots do not benefit from the Furious Charge of the IC & Runtherd; nor the Waaagh! of the IC(the unit will not become fleet)

Still Gretchin would never, ever count for the Mob rule, nor would they ever be affected by the Waagh!, even if each and every single one of them had those two rules. Both explicitly affect orks, and gretchin aren't orks.

3 things,

1st, READ ALL of what I have posted

2nd, gretchin do count as orks, as they are in codex: ork, other wise NOTHING would count toward mob rule, as their is no unit specifically named "Ork"

3rd, mob rule counts toward the "mob" or unit, so it doesn't matter if the gretchin or runt herders do not have the rule, as Mob Rule applies to the "mob".

So youre saying Daemonhosts are actually Grey Knights

Interesting but ultimately flawed argument.

Tell me, what codex they are in?

Brood Lord wrote:2nd, gretchin do count as orks, as they are in codex: ork, other wise NOTHING would count toward mob rule, as their is no unit specifically named "Ork"

They count as an Ork unit, as they are in Codex: Orks.
They are not an Ork mob, though... they are a Gretchin mob. As in, they are a mob made up of Gretchin, not a mob made up of Orks.

again, gretchin are orks, otherwise nothing in the codex would be unless it was specifically "Ork", therefor a gretchin mob is[b] an ork mob/

Brood Lord wrote:again, gretchin are orks, otherwise nothing in the codex would be unless it was specifically "Ork", therefor a gretchin mob is[b] an ork mob/

Those aren't the only two options.

Any unit in the Ork codex is an Ork [the army] unit. That doesn't make everything in the codex an Ork. An Ork unit is a unit from the Orks army. An Ork is, well, an Ork.

A Gretchin is not an Ork. A Gretchin mob is an Ork unit (because it is a part of the Ork army), but is not made up of Orks (because they are not Orks, they are Gretchin), in the same way that an Inquisitor is a part of the Grey Knight army without being a Grey Knight.

And in the codex it does not say which units are, and are not "orks", and there for using this logic no unit in the ork codex is an ork, or they all are.

Brood Lord wrote:And in the codex it does not say which units are, and are not "orks", and there for using this logic no unit in the ork codex is an ork, or they all are.

You won't get very far with this argument. The rule is written such that there is no way to determine what is and is not an "ork mob" without actually reading the unit/model descriptions or looking at the models, leaving it up to a subjective assessment. You won't get very far trying to argue that Boyz and Nobz aren't Orks, and you won't very far trying to argue that Gretchin are. Any argument that 'Gretchin == Ork' is just going to be considered trolling.

Brood Lord wrote:And in the codex it does not say which units are, and are not "orks", and there for using this logic no unit in the ork codex is an ork, or they all are.

You certainly can use that logic... but what exactly do you gain by doing it?

The codex does, through the fluff sections, explain that Gretchin are different from Orks. It also, in the 'bestiary' section, explain which units are made up of Orks and which are not.

So while we don't have a specific rule that states 'These over here are Orks, and those over there are not' it's made pretty clear on even a cursory reading of the codex.

Your 'all or nothing' approach just doesn't hold water. And doesn't actually achieve anything useful as an argument. It's clear that Grots aren't Orks. If you choose to take that to extreme, and argue that this means that nothing else is an Ork either, you win... er... nothing really, since nobody standing opposite you at the table is going to accept that as a valid argument, however clever you may think it to be.

Ork mobs, so far as the codex is concerned, are those mobs that contain Orks. Gretchin are not Orks, they are Gretchin. And so Gretchin mobs are not Ork mobs. It's that simple.