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Actually I have already posted the Mob Rule one of my earlier posts, and as far as proving that nobz and boyz aren't orks was an example for why gretchin are, by technicality (and fluff, considering they ARE a sub-race of ork) orks. As for "trolling" I find this topic very relevant considering that I am going to be making a grot army (and this IS a site where discussions of these types take place). If you would prefer to not read what I have to say, you should simply look away (or not look somthing titled "Fearless Grechin?") with out hearing why grechin can (with a warboss/mek) be fearless. However I will agree that I went a little off topic to prove why gretchin are orks, but only because everyone keeps trying to use the fluff of the game to affect the rules of the game.


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Your trying to use fluff to effect how a rule works. Fluff effects literally nothing in game, as it does not pertain to the actual rules.

Brood Lord wrote:Your trying to use fluff to effect how a rule works.

In this particular case, yes, I am. Because the alternative is your 'nothing in the codex is an Ork' option. So we determine what is and is not an Ork by reading the codex, which tells us what is and is not an Ork.

And, that is your mistake, as fluff affects nothing, it is ... fluff. The fluff tells what an ork is in the 40k story line however in the actual game it never differentiates grechin as not being orks. As it says on page 31 0f the ork codex for the Waaagh! special rule "For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rool (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!)" -pg 31 of Codex: Ork. The rule says all friendly ork units, excluding grechin. Now why would they excluding gretchin if they are not an ork unit in the first place?

The only reason i said the all or nothing part, was besides this statement, their is no unit in the codex actually recognized as an "ork" unit besides gretchin in the RULES, not the fluff.

Brood Lord wrote:... however in the actual game it never differentiates grechin as not being orks.

Nor does it say that they are Orks.

So if you choose to ignore the fluff that explains what's what in the codex, that leaves you back with your useless 'nothing is an Ork' conclusion.

Now why would they excluding gretchin if they are not an ork unit in the first place?

That's kind if the point, though... they exclude Gretchin for the same reason that they don't give them Mob Rule. Because they're not Orks.

Or that everything in Codex: Ork is an ork.

In which case, why don't Gretchin have Mob Rule?

insaniak wrote:In which case, why don't Gretchin have Mob Rule?

I would imagine the same reason a Tac Marine lacks an Iron Halo:

because that's what it says in the book?

Assuming any authorial intention is RAI, otherwise.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would imagine the same reason a Tac Marine lacks an Iron Halo:

because that's what it says in the book?

Except that the Iron Halo rules don't state that all Space Marines have one.
Mob Rule, on the other hand, is stated as applying to all Orks. And yet Gretchin don't have it.

Surely that should be at least a hint?

insaniak wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I would imagine the same reason a Tac Marine lacks an Iron Halo:

because that's what it says in the book?

Except that the Iron Halo rules don't state that all Space Marines have one.
Mob Rule, on the other hand, is stated as applying to all Orks. And yet Gretchin don't have it.

Surely that should be at least a hint?

Do all orks really have it? I was under the impression that a Warboss, for example, did not, although I'm 99% certain most people consider a warboss an ork.

Also, hints != proof.

warboss' do have mob rule, however there are other ork units that do not have the rule. Also, wether or not grechin have mob rule is besides the point, as my hints (ie, everything in Codex: Ork is an ork to one degree or another) are far more substantial.


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Oh, and you never play 40k off of a hint in the first place, you find the rule that specifically states whether grechen are not orks (as per the "unless specifically stated otherwise" general rule). Further more, it never says that "Lootas" are orks, or even that "Ork Boyz" are "orks". So the point remains, where besides in the fluffy fluff does it say grechin are not orks? (and then we go back to the "all or nothing" statement", in which you must logically conclude that all models in Codex: Ork are "orks")

Brood Lord wrote:warboss' do have mob rule, however there are other ork units that do not have the rule.

The only non-vehicle units in the army that don't have it are Mad Dok Grotsnik (who is Fearless, so it would be pointless giving it to him), Gretchin Mobs, and Big Gun crew (who are also Gretchin).

Also, wether or not grechin have mob rule is besides the point, as my hints (ie, everything in Codex: Ork is an ork to one degree or another) are far more substantial.

So, the fact that the codex mentions that they are different from Orks, and that they don't have Mob Rule (which the codex says applies to all Orks) is beside the point when you're wanting to determine whether or not Gretchin are Orks?

Oh, and you never play 40k off of a hint in the first place, you find the rule that specifically states whether grechen are not orks (as per the "unless specifically stated otherwise" general rule).

Er... what 'specifically stated otherwise' general rule?

Further more, it never says that "Lootas" are orks,

Ork Codex, page 43, first sentence wrote:Lootas are the most heavily armed of all Orks...

or even that "Ork Boyz" are "orks".

Yeah... I think we're done here.

Again, using fluff to justify rules. here, let me explain something very carefully to you, the "fluff" of the game, does not actually affect the game, as in when i play my tyranids I don't field the numbers that the smallest tyranid army recorded had (i.e. trillions), even though I play hive fleet Behemoth. My ork codex says that weird boyz are accompanied by mad boyz, this doesn't mean that I can make up rules for a mad boys and field them, no matter how much the fluff describes them.

The fluff... means... NOTHING.

insaniak wrote:

Brood Lord wrote:warboss' do have mob rule, however there are other ork units that do not have the rule.

The only non-vehicle units in the army that don't have it are Mad Dok Grotsnik (who is Fearless, so it would be pointless giving it to him), Gretchin Mobs, and Big Gun crew (who are also Gretchin).

Also, wether or not grechin have mob rule is besides the point, as my hints (ie, everything in Codex: Ork is an ork to one degree or another) are far more substantial.

So, the fact that the codex mentions that they are different from Orks, and that they don't have Mob Rule (which the codex says applies to all Orks) is beside the point when you're wanting to determine whether or not Gretchin are Orks?

1) Saying something is "pointless" is attributing intent... again. It may be pointless to YOU, but who knows what the author is thinking?

2) The codex mentions they are different from Orks in the fluff section only. The fact that they don't have mob rule means nothing, as neither does Doc Grotsnik, and he's an ork. So yes, they are beside the point.

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) Saying something is "pointless" is attributing intent... again. It may be pointless to YOU, but who knows what the author is thinking?

I wasn't attributing intent at all. I was pointing out that Mob Rule would be pointless for him as he is Fearless. Which isn't actually entirely true, in retrospect, since Fearless just applies to morale tests. He would still get some benefit from it (if he had it) for other Leadership tests.

2) The codex mentions they are different from Orks in the fluff section only. The fact that they don't have mob rule means nothing, as neither does Doc Grotsnik, and he's an ork. So yes, they are beside the point.

The thing is, the codex only describes which units are Orks in the fluff section as well. So if you choose to ignore everything in the codex except the hard rules, you're left with Brood Lord's interpretation, where nothing actually benefits from anything that applies to 'Orks' because nothing in the codex has a rule that says it is an Ork.

This is the thing with GW's codexes... As much as it would be the preferred ideal, it's impossible to play the game if you just stick to hard RAW. The only way we know what is an Ork and what isn't is by reading the flavour text that accompanies the unit descriptions. If we disregard that, then rules-wise, we have no Orks. Just a bunch of undefined models with Special rules that don't actually do anything.

This argument reminds me a great deal of all the bickering over the Doom of Malan'tai... Sometimes, as much as people might hate it, the fluff does define the unit.

insaniak wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) Saying something is "pointless" is attributing intent... again. It may be pointless to YOU, but who knows what the author is thinking?

I wasn't attributing intent at all. I was pointing out that Mob Rule would be pointless for him as he is Fearless. Which isn't actually entirely true, in retrospect, since Fearless just applies to morale tests. He would still get some benefit from it (if he had it) for other Leadership tests.

2) The codex mentions they are different from Orks in the fluff section only. The fact that they don't have mob rule means nothing, as neither does Doc Grotsnik, and he's an ork. So yes, they are beside the point.

The thing is, the codex only describes which units are Orks in the fluff section as well. So if you choose to ignore everything in the codex except the hard rules, you're left with Brood Lord's interpretation, where nothing actually benefits from anything that applies to 'Orks' because nothing in the codex has a rule that says it is an Ork.

This is the thing with GW's codexes... As much as it would be the preferred ideal, it's impossible to play the game if you just stick to hard RAW. The only way we know what is an Ork and what isn't is by reading the flavour text that accompanies the unit descriptions. If we disregard that, then rules-wise, we have no Orks. Just a bunch of undefined models with Special rules that don't actually do anything.

This argument reminds me a great deal of all the bickering over the Doom of Malan'tai... Sometimes, as much as people might hate it, the fluff does define the unit.

Fair enough.

Also, let it be known that I also hate RAW, and was arguing it in this example just to see if I could get someone to say that "sometimes, fluff does [make up] the unit." I dun play orks...

Unit1126PLL wrote:Also, let it be known that I also hate RAW, ...

That's always struck me as a rather peculiar statement. The RAW is predominantly what we use to play the game. It's generally how people interpret the rules that causes problems, not the rules themselves.

To my mind, the interpretation I've provided here is the RAW... because playing GW's games doesn't always rely solely on the parts of the book that are clearly rules. Or, if you prefer, quite often important information that makes the rules work is buried in amongst the fluff. As was the case with the Doom of Malan'tai... and as is the case here.

Gretchin are not orks by RAW, no fluff needed. Codex orks, pg. 31 in the rules of the Waagh!, last line, getchin are explicitly statet as not being orks in rules. This kills both Unit and Brood Lords argument, though I agree to insaniak it is silly to argue it in the first place. Kroot aren't Tau either.

No, in the rule waaagh! it says that all orks except grechin, as I posted earlier, why would they say all orks except gretchin if they are not orks in the first place? Its like saying "all space marines have combat tactics, except orks" it would not be needed UNLESS they were "by the rules" orks.

Stop using fluff to justify the game, it is insubstantial as it doesn't matter whether or not grechin are not orks in the fluff, it matters whether or not they are treated as orks in the ACTUAL RULES.

Again, THE FLUFF MEANS NOTHING, THE FLUFF MEANS NOTHING, THE FLUFF MEANS NOTHING.

Except the word "except" does not appear on that rule. It states Ork units not being the same as Gretchin units.

"For the duration of that turn all ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule(not Gretchin units, they are far too weedy for a proppa Waaagh!)."(Codex:Orks, pg. 31)

This rule explicitly tells us that there are Gretchin units, which are different from ork units. Thus gretchin are not orks.

Also "why would they say?" has no bearing on RAW at all, plus GW likes to state obvious things again, especially in parenthesis.

In addition, iif fluff means nothing, not a single unit in the Ork Codex would benefit from either Waagh! or Mob rule. There is no rule stating that any entry in Codex: Orks is actually an ork. Only fluff states that those units are orks.

no, it says all ork units (i.e. ALL) get fleet of foot, then it excludes grechin ("not Grechin"). Again, there would be no need for this statement if grechin where not already counted as orks for the purpose of in game rules. I do not know how you are applying this to proving grechin are not for the purpose of the rule (as it says in short all orks but grechin) orks. Your statement, and your evidence to it is very fuzzy, and unfortunately wrong.

Alright, it's pretty simple for me at least, to look at a gretchin and know its not an ork. But this argument is going in circles... so i'll see if i can dig up a vauge referance or something.

The mob rule on Page 31 referances ork mobs, so its safe to say that the mob rule only applies to orks.

Page 50, under Gretchin special rules, if defines the gretchin unit as a "Grotz mob"

Good enough for me! Mob rule applies to an "Ork mob", Gretchin are appear to be a "Grot mob"

"Good enough" is never good enough. Interesting point but completely unrelated (as a gretchin mob would be a ork mob if gretchin are orks), and it only calls gretchin a "Grotz mob" for the "It's a grot's Life" special rule having to do when specifically gretchin run into mines... going a little off topic, what codex has mines?

Brood Lord wrote:no, it says all ork units (i.e. ALL) get fleet of foot, then it excludes grechin ("not Grechin").

There is no evidence of this being an exclusion. Excluding Gretchin is a clarification to differentiate between Ork and Grotz. If you pick up your logic, it eliminates itself. If all units are ork units, then there are no gretchin units, because they are ork units, too.

Again, there would be no need for this statement if grechin where not already counted as orks for the purpose of in game rules.

There is no need for lots of statements. Lets pick ork warbikes, from the very same codex. It's rule contains the parenthesis "(though not for determining instant death)" referring to the toughness bonus. Toughness bonusses from wargear are never used for determining instant death, as by the rules in the BRB. But, by your logic, this must mean that all deffkoptas do use their toughness bonus to determine their instant death threshold, which is wrong.

I do not know how you are applying this to proving grechin are not for the purpose of the rule (as it says in short all orks but grechin) orks.

There is no hint in any printed rule ever of gretchin being orks. They are just as much orks as greater demons are Chaos Space Marines. You conveniently ignored my Tau example, so I'll give you more: Jokaroos are not Grey Knights. Ogryns are not Imperial Guardsmen. Clawed Fiends are not Dark Eldar.

Your statement, and your evidence to it is very fuzzy

You don't have any evidence at all, and simply make up rules. That's called RAI.

, and unfortunately wrong.

"No it aint."

No they wont get it, why would they?

And in the 40k rule book does it say that gretchin are not orks as well? I am not making up rules, I am rather pointing DIRECTLY AT THEM.

"For the duration of that turn, ALL FRIENDLY ORK INFANTRY UNITS have the 'fleet of foot' rule (NOT Grechin units, they are far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!)."-pg 31 of Codex: Orks.

You do see the "ALL FRIENDLY ORK INFANTRY UNITS" do you not? And then The "NOT Grechin units" in parentheses.

Further more, regarding the ork warbikers you could use that logic to say that deff Koptas could be T5 for the instant death rule, IF the Main rule book DID NOT trump codex unless Specifically stated otherwise.


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Jone96, read the earlier posts.

Brood Lord wrote:And in the 40k rule book does it say that gretchin are not orks as well? I am not making up rules, I am rather pointing DIRECTLY AT THEM.

Permissive ruleset. If it doesn't say they're orks, they are not. If you ignore fluff, there are not ork units in WH40k. If you don't ignore fluff, gretchin are not orks.

"For the duration of that turn, ALL FRIENDLY ORK INFANTRY UNITS have the 'fleet of foot' rule (NOT Grechin units, they are far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!)."-pg 31 of Codex: Orks.

You do see the "ALL FRIENDLY ORK INFANTRY UNITS" do you not? And then The "NOT Grechin units" in parentheses.

This is a quote, no argument given. All friendly ork infantry units are all Warbosses, Big Meks, Weirdboyz, Nobz, Painboyz, Boyz, Burnaz, Kommandoz, Lootaz, Meks and FlashGits not trying to punch you right now.
"Not" is not the same as "excluding".

Further more, regarding the ork warbikers you could use that logic to say that deff Koptas could be T5 for the instant death rule, IF the Main rule book DID NOT trump codex unless Specifically stated otherwise.

So, how about swoop attack? "[May assault](provided they are close enough)" Does this mean all other orks may assault even if they are not close enough?
Before you pull another easy-out, you're missing the point. The existence of a clarification does not have to mean anything. Pick up your BRB, open a random page and look in the text for parenthesis. Easily half of it is perfectly clear, like skimmers getting 4+ saves when obscured or many assault rules restating the corresponding shooting rules, and can be left out without any change of rules. You can not conclude something from the simple existence of such a clarification, you can just conclude something from content of it. The content is, there are gretchin units. Gretchin are different from ork units. You are assuming gretchin units are a subtype of ork units, but there is no evidence of that, other than you saying so.
Because you chose to completely ignore fluff and and capsyell at another person because it didn't fit your argument, by RAW there are no ork units at all. There is, however, a Gretchin unit on page 50.

No ld34 Warboss for you either way, either gretchin are not orks and don't count for mob rule, or the warboss is not an ork, and does not benefit from mob rule. My warboss is an ork.

where in the codex does it say that Warbosses, Big Meks, Weirdboyz, Nobz, Painboyz, Boyz, Burnaz, Kommandoz, Lootaz, Meks and FlashGits are orks besides in the fluff?


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Excluding after it is deemed that all orks have it, concluding that grechin have to be orks in the first place to be excluded from.

If the specific entry for grot herds says they have the mob rule they have it,

btw runtherds have had the Waaagh! and the mob rule deleted (Source:errata)

This is just going around in circles. Since nobody seems to have anything new to add, I think this one can take a rest.