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So if you're a tau player then you obviously know the inherent difficulties that come with facing MEQ, as well as TEQ:
1. No power weapons
2. No viable way to fire insane amounts of small arms fire without extremely high risk
3. Not enough low AP weapons/too expensive

Potential Solutions:
-Devilfish get 2 rail rifles embedded in their hulls for passengers to use
-Pulse carbine gets assault 2-3 and 18"
-Ion cannon becomes Heavy 4-5/blast and ap 2
-Vespids become 5++ and guns become Assault 2 at 18"
-Pulse weapons inflict -1 to saves forced by wounds
-Burst cannon becomes Assault 4-5
-Kroot shapers can take power weapons
-Hammerhead template becomes St 7 Ap 2
-Main railgun has targeting JotWW-esque style

Thoughts?
not saying all should be done, but just throwing out some ideas

I would not say the Tau are completely out of being able to fight against either one. I would say that it is perhaps difficult to tailor a list that is suitable for both armies, like during a campaign or at a tournament. But you are right that either way we still struggle a little bit, even on a one on one friendly match. But I say thats what makes the Tau so fun, really trying to use tactics and come up with a viable army. Right now I would say that I agree that it would be nice and make things easir if we could get some more low AP weaponry, or at least let the PR get more shots. Or I always thought itd be cool if they said something like "now that the tau population is increasing and the Empire growing theyve come to develop new tactics for fighting the other races, so instead of having a three man crisis suit team you have 4." But id just prefer better low AP weaponry for the price we pay for each suit. Im sure that whatever they come up with for the new codex it will be sure to add a new challenge for us followers of the Greater Good!

Just about all of the "upgrades" you listed are overpowered and ridiculous, and I doubt that you would ever be able to find somebody who has any amount of experience playing this game who would allow you to field any of these ridiculous rule changes. Why don't you just be patient and wait for your codex update instead of QQing about how can't figure out how to beat marines?

Marines are quite easy to take out for Tau to be honest...

You just have to focus on a squad per turn and just whittle each one down. Don't split fire if possible.

Take out transports (Something we do with ease) and then just stay out of range and plink away at them.

Granted it can be difficult it is not something we struggle with...

Horde lists however...

Currently against marines I like to use Helios Suits and then focus on the Dakka im going to dish out with my troops.

Your Ideas here kill Tau Empires original purpose.

Jone96 wrote:Your Ideas here kill Tau Empires original purpose.

enlighten me. I'm not asking for assault units or more durable units, which are the only main thing that goes against Tau philosophy.

gr1m_dan wrote:Marines are quite easy to take out for Tau to be honest...

You just have to focus on a squad per turn and just whittle each one down. Don't split fire if possible.

Take out transports (Something we do with ease) and then just stay out of range and plink away at them.

Granted it can be difficult it is not something we struggle with...

Horde lists however...

honestly, i find horde much, much easier to play against than marines because of all the things we have against them, like the flurry of blast templates with hammerheads, while having the ability to actually pierce their armor. And the part about focusing on a squad per turn: look at most other armies in the game. Do they have to dedicate their entire army just to kill a squad of 5-10 marines? Do they have to equip a 25 pt model with 37 pts of wargear, just so it can maybe kill a marine 1/2 of the time, out of cover, while being in rapid fire range? I'm not saying that it's not possible. I'm saying that in order to make a list that does fairly well against marines, one has to forsake a build that is more of an all-comers list as opposed to a tailored one. If your build has worked, please share.

The only change I can see a railgun having is to a solid shot:

Railgun initially fires a solid shot at S10 AP1 in the style of JotWW, with a line where you want it. If the first model hit dies, then the next in line takes a hit at S9 AP2, and if that dies the next at S8 AP3 and so on and so forth until the next model survives, it hits a unit it cannot harm, or it hits terrain.

Vehicles will function similarly, except that the solid shot will only continue onwards if the vehicle is destroyed; if the vehicle is immobilised or has a weapon destroyed that does not cause the vehicle to become destroyed, then it is assumed that the shot was deflected or did not strike enough to pierce the armour, however the impact from the hit will cause the vehicle to also become shaken.

Ways of stopping the shot:
Sucessful Armour/Invulnerable/Cover save made against the shot.
The shot hits intervening terrain.
The shot fails to wound/glance/penetrate.
The shot cannot harm the model.

-Devilfish get 2 rail rifles embedded in their hulls for passengers to use

Good as an upgrade for Pathfinder Devilfishes only

-Pulse carbine gets assault 2-3 and 18"
-Kroot shapers can take power weapons

Fine

-Ion cannon becomes Heavy 4-5/blast and ap 2
-Vespids become 5++ and guns become Assault 2 at 18"
-Pulse weapons inflict -1 to saves forced by wounds
-Burst cannon becomes Assault 4-5
-Hammerhead template becomes St 7 Ap 2

These suggestions are silly.

-Main railgun has targeting JotWW-esque style

Interesting idea but would be very difficult to implement. With a single shot causing anywhere from 1-10 hits, you're looking at a massive price increase.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Tau weaponry. In fact I don't think there's a whole lot that needs to be changed offensively. I can take out rhinos with fire warriors for feth's sake! Offensively my mech-suit/marker light madness is a force to be reckoned with, not to mention the 6 broadsides rocking 6 shield drones, taking out any vehicle on the board.

Now DEFENSIVELY, yeah there could be some improvements. Getting insta-killed is a HUGE issue for Tau.

Honestly, as a Tau player, I hope not a whole lot Stat-wise changes. Tau are balanced. What they lack in defense and strength they make up for in sheer firepower. Str 10 AP 1 72" shot and twin linked? Damn straight.


I'd have a nasty army if it weren't for the dice-gods hating me so much. Penetration rolls are not a problem, of course. But damage rolls, ya darn tootin' I'm rolling 1s and 2s.

Some ideas I would like to see for Tau in a new codex (I don't currently have my codex in front of me, so some of the point values are approximate, from memory). Again, these are just ideas so discussion is welcome on these:

Firewarrior squad decreased to 100 pts for 1 Team Leader and 11 Firewarriors. May change to Carbine armed for free, Carbines are 18" Str 5 AP 5 Assault 2, Pinning. All Team Leaders and HQ (including for other types of units such as Broadsides, Crisis Suits, etc) have Markerlights (which are changed). Ability to buy up to 2 drones from the following list:

Gun Drone (same as current, with new carbine stats above) for 10 pts (up to 2)

Burst Cannon Drone for 10 points (up to 2)

Twinlinked MP Drone for 15 points (up to 2)

Twinlinked PR Drone for 20 points (up to 2)

Shield Drone, gives entire FW team a 6+ invulnerable save for ~20 points (limit 1)

Target Assist Drone, gives entire FW team (and drones) +1 BS for ~20 points (limit 1)

No Markerlight Drone

Also, allowed to buy Devilfish transport for ~55 points. Allow upgrades to Gun Drones to the TL MP or TL PR drones for appropriate point point upgrades (+5 per MP drone, +10 per PR drone). Remove Seeker Missile upgrades. Other upgrades essentially unchanged. This puts a decked out FW team at ~200 points. This allows them to be more points effective with more direct use weapons available.

A Crisis Suit team is 1 Team Leader with the ability to buy 0-2 Crisis Suits. Give all Crisis Suits BS 4. Base Load out for Crisis Suits to be PR, MP, Multitracker (same cost as current for that load-out as in the current codex). May exchange these weapon loadouts for the various other weapons available, for variable point costs. Upgrade to TL PR w/ Targeting Array for +15 points, or TL MP w/ Targeting Array for +10 points. Allow Crisis Suits to buy Drones from the above list. Allow 1 Crisis Suit team (all members) per army to be upgraded to have 1 Power Weapon, 1 Flamer, and Heavy Armor (2+ Armor Save) for ~15-20 points each (losing PR and MP and Multitracker). May upgrade Team Leader to Power Fist for +5 points for this specialty unit. Allow 1 Crisis Suit Commander and his 0-2 Bodyguards to take the Assault Upgrade, with Commander allowed Power Fist. Additionally, Shas'El/Shas'O may take Tau Shock Grenades for ~20 points which roll a D6 on assault:

1 - No effect

2-3 - Target unit has -1 Initiative (min 1)

4-5 - Target unit has -1 WS (min 1)

6 - Target unit's members each lose 1 attack (min 1)

Broadsides upgraded to be BS 4. Team Leader plus 0-2 Broadsides. Allow them to buy drones as per Crisis Suits. No other changes.

Allow 1-3 Hammerheads and 1-3 Skyrays to be taken in each heavy slot.

Drop Hammerheads by ~10-20 points each, keep same stats and upgrades (except Seeker Missile). Keeps them in contention with Broadsides, but allows a choice. May buy drone upgrades as per Devilfish.

Skyrays are greatly changed. Remove the Seeker Missile Upgrade from other vehicles, but Seeker Missiles on the Skyray act as Multiple Blast that any Team Leader may call in using his Marker Light (Range 36", Str*, AP -, Rapid Fire). The Str* is to call in a missile strike, the Rapid Fire is to denote Final Protective Fire type situations. The strike hits with 72" Str 8 Ap3 Heavy 1, Multiple Barrage, 2D3 Blasts. No more 1 shot missiles. May fire itself if it pays +5 points for a markerlight pod. May only fire with markerlight targeting. Obviously each vehicle may only fire once per turn, so multiple strikes would require multiple vehicles, including for the Rapid Fire FPF. Keep the Smart Missile System. Allowed to buy upgrades as per current codex. ~165 points each.

Give Vespids Rending in CC, better range on their gun.

Give Kroot Scout, Furious Charge, and Stubborn. And the Knarloc as a Heavy Support Choice.

A new client race?

A Monstrous Creature walker/mech as an Elite. What I was thinking was a Super Crisis Suit, similar to a Dread Knight.

These are just some ideas to make Tau more competitive, and would make them much more effective.

Fluff reasons is that since the Tau have had to fight the Humans more and more, they have had no choice but to evolve their tactics... For the greater good.

Better:

Overcharge Shot: In response to the Zeist Campaign, where the Tau frequently found themselves outmatched by Space Marine forces, the Tau have developed a method of dumping extra energy into a shot from a pulse rifle. This enhanced version, while it takes considerable preparation immediately beforehand and has considerably less killing power, is capable of cutting through Power Armor and equivalent methods of protection. A Tau Fire Warrior armed with a Pulse Rifle may fire in this mode once per game.

S: 4 AP: 3 Type: Heavy 1, 18" range.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Better:

Overcharge Shot: In response to the Zeist Campaign, where the Tau frequently found themselves outmatched by Space Marine forces, the Tau have developed a method of dumping extra energy into a shot from a pulse rifle. This enhanced version, while it takes considerable preparation immediately beforehand and has considerably less killing power, is capable of cutting through Power Armor and equivalent methods of protection. A Tau Fire Warrior armed with a Pulse Rifle may fire in this mode once per game.

S: 4 AP: 3 Type: Heavy 1, 18" range.

Eh?

Honestly, I don't see this as an upgrade, really. With your hot-pulse shot, you're hitting 50/50, wounding 50/50, with no invulnerable saves you're looking at 3 out of 10 tactical marines. If they roll well on their run or you're not at the maximum of 18", this means you're still getting raped by 7 MEQ on their turn in the assault. Standard FW now have a 50/50 to hit, with a 2/3s to wound chance for a total of 4 wounds, or 8 if the MEQ are within 15" for rapid fire. That means the MEQ save 2/3s, for 1 and 2/3 unsaved wounds over 15" or 4 unsaved wounds under 15". Odds are, rapid fire standard FW are better than your hot-pulse shot.

With my upgrades, vs a MEQ of 170 points, having a Targetting Array Drone with a TL PR Drone (so 140 for the unit) means you have 12 pulse rifle shots hitting on 3+ over 15", with 1 Plasma shot hitting on 4+. So 8 Pulse Rifle shots and 75% of a Plasma means 5 1/3 wounds from the Pulse Rifles and 62.5% of a chance of an unsavable wound from the Plasma. That gives you 2 wounds and a little over 40% of an unsaved wound. Not that much different than before, right?

But under 12", now you're getting 16 out of 24 Pulse Rifle hits and 1 of 2 Plasma Rifle hits. So 10 2/3 wounds from the Pulse Rifles and 5/6 of a wound from the Plasma Rifle. MEQ saves leave you 4 and a skosh under 40% of a wound. So, a 140 point Tau FW team has almost halved the Space Marine Unit coming in just this turn. Assuming 3 tactical marines survived to assault (2.40ish wounds from the first round of shooting and 4.40ish wounds from second round of shooting), means that those 3 marines would probably kill 2 (1.55ish unsaved wounds, on average) FW, and then probably have 1 casualty in return. The FW would then need to take a Morale test for a 7 (Team Leader less 1 for the difference in wounds), which is a 50/50. In that case, the FW would have an equal chance to get cut down in the Sweeping Advance as of getting away, but that's the breaks, really. Considering they killed about their point value (140 for 140 points of tactical squad), that's a pretty good result. With a reasonably decked out SM Tactical Squad and a fully decked out FW team (both with Transportation) each busting in the 220+ point range, I would call it an even fight with my changes.

What do you think of my suggested changes?

Well, obviously, anything you shoot you should put a +1 BS Markerlight token on first.

Your changes are edging towards overpowered.

Also: Of course you're getting raped in assault. You're Tau. You're supposed to get raped in assault.

These Changes are a bit... overpowered tbh

Tau arn't that bad against marines i beat a deathwing army 8:4 in anialation

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Well, obviously, anything you shoot you should put a +1 BS Markerlight token on first.

This is the main problem; you shouldn't have to purchase a second unit or expensive upgrades in order to have a unit do the job you bought it for. If I buy a Space Marine for the points they are now, I do not expect to then have to buy them a bolter, a bolt pistol, a ccw and power armour; it is for this reason that I don't expect to buy a Fire Warrior, and then have to buy other things so that they can actually do their job.

My Pathfinders are usually too busy removing cover saves from vehicle smoke or buildings so my crisis suits and railguns can lay into them, I can't be having 6 pathfinders waste their markerlights on one target that my FWs want to shoot at when my crisis suits and railguns are targeting more important things; I need a way for my Fire Warriors to reliably shoot something without having to be babysat by Pathfinders, their markerlight shots should be used to make your shooting better, not allow you to actually shoot well in the first place.

I'm not saying you shouldn't lose in Assault. Tau, in general, should. In fact, other than suggesting that the Tau be allowed to bring up to 2 x 3 man Crisis Teams (1 HQ and 1 Elite Slot) who specialize in assault, I haven't suggested any changes to their assault capability. And all they'll really do is probably get murdered in CC by a more specialized assault unit or a unit with more dudes.

However, the changes I have suggested make it more likely that the Tau can possibly STOP an assault from getting to them. You know, what they should be able to do, since they're supposedly the best shooting army in the game (which they're not). All my changes did was give the Tau FW (specialized shooting troops) the possibilty to stop a generic take all comers MEQ (generalists, decent at everything) with shooting for roughly equivalent points in a reliable manner (IE: average dice rolls). You know, beat them in shooting. Shouldn't they be able to do that?

You are saying that the changes are overpowered; how so? On average dice rolls with two rounds of shooting, they still didn't stop the MEQ. Are they any worse than any of the other new codices? I don't think so. If you do think so, what changes/tweaks do you see in my suggestions that should be changed?


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Avatar 720 wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Well, obviously, anything you shoot you should put a +1 BS Markerlight token on first.

This is the main problem; you shouldn't have to purchase a second unit or expensive upgrades in order to have a unit do the job you bought it for. If I buy a Space Marine for the points they are now, I do not expect to then have to buy them a bolter, a bolt pistol, a ccw and power armour; it is for this reason that I don't expect to buy a Fire Warrior, and then have to buy other things so that they can actually do their job.

My Pathfinders are usually too busy removing cover saves from vehicle smoke or buildings so my crisis suits and railguns can lay into them, I can't be having 6 pathfinders waste their markerlights on one target that my FWs want to shoot at when my crisis suits and railguns are targeting more important things; I need a way for my Fire Warriors to reliably shoot something without having to be babysat by Pathfinders, their markerlight shots should be used to make your shooting better, not allow you to actually shoot well in the first place.

Ditto.

What do you think of my suggestions? I think they give (in general) the Tau a slight shooting edge while maintaining their overall incompetence in assault.

For the firewarriors and markerlight issue the shas'ui can take a markerlight if you have overlapping fields of fire have them markerlight for each other. i dont even have pathfinders in my army i just use firewarriors and stealth teams and honestly its psych out for the opponents cuz its not just 1 unit with markrelights they need to worry about


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also in general yea they do suck in cc but with thier 4+ regular save they have surprising staying power...true they wont do much but they will hold up the enemy for at least a turn if theres no power weapons involved

polari wrote:For the firewarriors and markerlight issue the shas'ui can take a markerlight if you have overlapping fields of fire have them markerlight for each other. i dont even have pathfinders in my army i just use firewarriors and stealth teams and honestly its psych out for the opponents cuz its not just 1 unit with markrelights they need to worry about


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also in general yea they do suck in cc but with thier 4+ regular save they have surprising staying power...true they wont do much but they will hold up the enemy for at least a turn if theres no power weapons involved

...Who doesn't take a power weapon(s) in their list?

true but it does happen or they take out the sgt early lol but eitherway tau can take a surprising beating sometimes

polari wrote:For the firewarriors and markerlight issue the shas'ui can take a markerlight if you have overlapping fields of fire have them markerlight for each other. i dont even have pathfinders in my army i just use firewarriors and stealth teams and honestly its psych out for the opponents cuz its not just 1 unit with markrelights they need to worry about

And what happens when those lone markerlights miss 50% of the time? At least with Pathfinders, what you intend to light up is usually lit up; with single markerlights you need to hit, otherwise you need another markerlight to tear away from its intended target and light up the other instead, and if that misses you need another etc. etc.

True its a 50/50 chance but its not puttin all your eggs in 1 basket and between my fw and stealth teams thats 3-5 markerlights on several targets instead of just 1


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and i never markerlight more then 2-3 units so there is at least 1 that hits

polari wrote:True its a 50/50 chance but its not puttin all your eggs in 1 basket and between my fw and stealth teams thats 3-5 markerlights on several targets instead of just 1


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and i never markerlight more then 2-3 units so there is at least 1 that hits

So, 1 markerlight...giving you BS 4...for 1 unit...

Okay. So since the Tau are just fine in your opinion, perhaps we should stop taking up so much of your time, whilst we discuss upgrades we would like to see in the next Codex?

oook wasnt sayin that just givin my point of view and experience ive been playin tau since they came out and i see the use for pathfinders just dont use em never needed them and im all for upgrades for the tau

@ OP

When have tau been lacking against MEQ? We've got resonably (for 4th ed) priced melta and plasma weaponry that will wound on 2+, for starters. In combination with that, we have great anti transport capabilities which will unhorse those MEQs/ TEQs quickly.

All you have to do versus MEQ/ TEQ with Tau is focus one/ two units down a turn and then rinse and repeat, markerlights contributing greatly by getting rid of those pesky cover saves.

As for your suggestions, they seem VERY cheesy with little to no orginal thought, all you are doing is 'eww, I don't like this, why not make it a little bit better to completly fit my needs'

mythological wrote:@ OP

When have tau been lacking against MEQ? We've got resonably (for 4th ed) priced melta and plasma weaponry that will wound on 2+, for starters. In combination with that, we have great anti transport capabilities which will unhorse those MEQs/ TEQs quickly.

All you have to do versus MEQ/ TEQ with Tau is focus one/ two units down a turn and then rinse and repeat, markerlights contributing greatly by getting rid of those pesky cover saves.

As for your suggestions, they seem VERY cheesy with little to no orginal thought, all you are doing is 'eww, I don't like this, why not make it a little bit better to completly fit my needs'

Are you talking to me, or to GW? I kid, I kid.

What would you suggest then?

Really, IMHO, the big things the Tau need are:

Decent HQ Choices: I think that if the new tau codex follows the template of the most recent 5th edition codex hq choices, which are specific leaders give access/ upgrades to units, then tau get an instant competiveness boost. The reasoning would be that no longer would one have to field FW (and a devilfish to keep them alive) and maybe replace them with better Suits.

Lowering Cost: This one will be a gimmie as it is the trend for the 5th edition codexes so far, right now I can field a good amount of suits, but, hopefully, with the new codex I will be able to field more! and more=good

Another Vehicle Chassis: For a super-advanced Space Civilization, the tau seem to be behind in the fast transport department, all I want would be a venom-like transport which could carry a min sized FW squad around and zoom to get objectives, without costing me an arm and a leg (I'm looking at you, Devilfish)

New Units: Right now there are 1-2 competitive builds in the tau codex, so some more variety of units would be great. I, for one, would love to have XV-9s in my fast attack FOC, and maybe some more auxilaries to spice things up (both are likely)

Meh, I think Tau could be competitive right now, it seems to be that way in my local meta game

I agree with myth my tau still hold thier own and all my army is are 4 fw teams bout 8-9 crisis 9 stealth 2 broadsides a hammerhead and a pirahna...new suits and vehicles would be great and some more of the other races in the greater good too

mythological wrote:@ OP

When have tau been lacking against MEQ? We've got resonably (for 4th ed) priced melta and plasma weaponry that will wound on 2+, for starters. In combination with that, we have great anti transport capabilities which will unhorse those MEQs/ TEQs quickly.

All you have to do versus MEQ/ TEQ with Tau is focus one/ two units down a turn and then rinse and repeat, markerlights contributing greatly by getting rid of those pesky cover saves.

As for your suggestions, they seem VERY cheesy with little to no orginal thought, all you are doing is 'eww, I don't like this, why not make it a little bit better to completly fit my needs'

First, you say we have a lot of 2+ wounding plasma. Not true at all. We have 2 units that can take these weapons, and one of them should never take them. The other costs ridiculous amounts of points fully kitted out. A marine costs 16 points. Crisis suits fully kitted out in things that can kill a marine are around 60 pts. With a BS of 3, they will only take out an average of 1-1.5 marines a turn, without taking into account the potential of shooting and assaulting, while being in rapid fire range. Railguns should never be used against infantry, so those are out of the question. Second, i wish to refute your point about focusing. Yes, focusing can be effective against MEQ. But, look at the big picture. You spend all of your time focusing the entire army on that one unit, and potentially kill it. Great, now you have to worry about the other 1400 pts worth of units which will most likely assault you on the next turn. Most other armies now don't have to focus their entire army just to kill 5-10 marines, they usually have a specific squad that can do that. Our weakness is that we either have to focus our entire army on MEQs/TEQs to kill them for good, or we have to ignore them for other, potentially more pressing targets, leaving said ignored unit to potentially assault us the next turn. Tau are horrible in assault; this is common knowledge. So, we need to be either good or very good in shooting. As of now, we get outshot by ORKS. I mean, sheesh. If the most advanced and shooty army in the galaxy get outshot by orks, then something's seriously wrong. I'm not saying my changes are the best, nor that they should be implemented. I was just giving ideas that could potentially further the Greater Good
/rant

ok what is your list? for MEQs i only need 1 round of shooting with a crisis suit to either wipe em out or to bring em below 50% and yea the point diff is big crisis suits are elites and if your still in assault range after jumping away then you were too close to begin with and there is plenty of plasma since it should be mandatory for suits unless you have em with a flamer/fusion build....and in all my years ive never seen orks outshoot tau yea they have pure numbrs bt they cant shoot for sh*t