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Hello peeps, just seeking a little advice here from more experienced Foot Guard players.

As I write my first list, it seems that Heavy Weapon Teams are a no-brainer - especially Autocannon teams. 75 points for 6 shots a turn? For that cost, it seems like a great deal.

However, the cost of multiple teams adds up quickly, and they are relatively immobile and squishy. However, where else would a horde-style army get it's transport busting power?

Since I'm not taking any other vehicles, Hydra's would get blown away fast, especially against DE and Purifier GKs, my main opponents.

So my question to you guys:

1.) Where do you get a good amount of light AT in your lists?

and

2.) How much of it do you usually take?

Thank you for your input.

heavy weapon teams are good for this. you have good options. i usualy take a team with autocannons and a team with missle launchers. other good options are what all guard should take. either LRBT or bassilisks. the roll two dice and chose the best for armour pen is great. other light armour for foot armies is done by either taking a melta or plasma in an infantry squad. dont take special weapon teams (my oppinion).

the best upgrade(s) to heavy weapon teams is putting a lord commissar near them so they can use leadership 10 to follow orders and be stuborn. Or, use kell and creed to make them use creeds leadership 10 for orders.

There are two real drawbacks to HWSquads. The first is the low leadership for orders, and the second is being a multiple wound T3 model, which is ID'd by...a lot. Besides that, for foot lists, they're a great addition. I don't like missile launchers, as I'd rather have a number of autocannons for transport duty and lascannons for serious tank busting. Missiles seem like too much of a compromise for too much, and the frag mode is...meh at best.

A Lord Commissar is a decent addition if you keep your squads near your CCS, especially if coupled with Creed, but that only becomes valid at 1850-2000+ due to the costs to do all that. I run them for long range anti-tank until my hedge of meltaguns closes the gap with the enemy.

It seems like Creed+Kell would be better than a Lord Commissar, considering the Commissar doesn't help you order anything and his bubble is pretty small.

I feel like the Teams are so darn fragile that they will run away or just die to any significant fire sent their way. Even so, I will be testing a couple of HWT-heavy builds soon. With Ogryns, no less. Those guys seem great on paper...

When you say "Foot Guard" do you mean Power Blobs or Gunline? My opinion is based on playing Gunline.

1) Heavy Weapon Teams in blobbed squads is a great option.

2) This really depends on the points and setting but a common stable of my army is 2x 2 PIS with a Missile Launcher each and/or 3 PIS with an Autocannon each. Specifically Light Anti-Tank i can't say i take much of (i am firmly of the opinion if it will kill a Land Raider it'll kill a Rhino and thus almost everything else on the board) but saying that i do like Autocannons even though they are quite underwhelming with BS3 imo.

Also to address your disregard of Hydras; i personally belive they are much more survivable than HWS as although Instant Death is certainly a concern any wounds are a threat when you have to rely on Ld7 to keep 'em in line and you may find that they are often deployed far enough back that they'll run off the board when that Leadership test is failed.

Peace!

i would totaly agree that creed/kell is a better option than a lord commissar. however, a lord commissar at cheapest is 70 points, over the (i have no idea) points of kreed/kell. if you do run a power blob, auto cannons are a great upgrade. lascannons are great too. i just dont run them in hvy weapon squads due to the fact that, i havent modeled any that way. I do run one in my CCS with two snipers (that is up for debate later, not here).

If you are running hvy wpn sqds, i would add a lord commissar just for the bubble of leadership 10. When i do run the heavy weapon squads in objective games, I usualy put them on an objective during deployement if i can, with the lord commissar near by.

They seem to do alright against me. My IG mates usually field 2-3 of the buggers, although its usually 2AC 1ML squad. Just for tranny busting.

Lord commisar can give stealth to a giant blob and place 2 hws inside his leadership bubble.

RubberJonny wrote:Also to address your disregard of Hydras; i personally belive they are much more survivable than HWS as although Instant Death is certainly a concern any wounds are a threat when you have to rely on Ld7 to keep 'em in line and you may find that they are often deployed far enough back that they'll run off the board when that Leadership test is failed.

This.

The thing about an all-foot list is that you're trying (I assume) to render an opponents anti-tank weapons useless. HWTs give them something to shoot at, and it's something incredibly fagile. One hit can ace a team, then cause them to run due to their low LD. However, if you start adding anything like a Lord Commissar to increase survivability through a cloak or a LD bubble, you're dramatically increasing the cost of what should be a cheap unit.

I think Ailaros had it right when he started adding HWS to his PCS and CCS, and keeping them stationary. Not only do they have better LD and can take Vox casters to help with orders (if that's your sort of thing), but they have a couple ablative wounds to protect the HWS from ID.

Another option (again from A-ros's lists) is taking the Autocannon LR variant. Usually I'd consider it crap. However, it provides long range firepower that all-foot usually lacks. Plus, if you're only going to run a couple vehicles (and therefore have obvious targets), you may as well go for the most resilient ones.

Ultimately, the problems with getting good long-range shooting into foot lists is why I support Hybrid lists so much, and that's my ultimate advice. The best heavy weapons in the IG codex come attached to vehicles. Compared to heavy weapons you can get on infantry, they're usually more resilient, cheaper, and more accurate (pick two, maybe all three).

I recommend against taking auto cannon heavy weapon teams by themselves as well. Leadership 7 isn't very good for passing orders like bring it down and if you lose one your likely to run.

If your running combined infantry squads you actually want las cannons since they are higher strength ap2 and you can twin link them with the bring it down order on the comissars leadership 9 which is a lot better then the heavy weapon team leadership 7. You can buy voxes for rerolls if you want.

Jihallah wrote:Just for tranny busting.

... What?!

Transports is what he meant, I hope. lol.

Just remember that str 6-7-8 weapons are awesome at insta-killing HWTs, and that if you lose one guy you are likely to go running.

HWT plus a commissar lord is a good combo though, especially in a foot list where you don't necessarily want 2 4x special weapon CCS anyway.

The commissar lord greatly increases the HWT's chances of getting orders off, and also makes them not so horrible with leadership.

Lord Commissar's bubble is 6", correct?

Heavy weapon teams can be good, but keep in mind that they are vulnerable to the same weapons that not taking vehicles makes you strong against. Autocannons, for instance, are great against heavy weapon teams, whereas they aren't going to do very much against most of the other units in a foot IG list.

So, a few things.

Firstly, HWSs to NOT saturate with infantry squads. HWSs behave so much differently when you shoot at them, that they don't help each other's survivability. Low Ld, compared to high Ld stubborn, instantly loosing killing power v. lots of abblative wounds, low wound count (especially against S6+) vs. high wound count. I mean, if you've got a foot horde full of blobs, and a couple of HWSs, what is your opponent going to shoot their lascannons and autocannons at? How well will the HWSs be able to weather that firepower?

Put another way taking HWSs "because they're also infantry" isn't a good way of looking at it. In reality, they don't saturate any better with the rest of your infantry than hydras, or anything else.

Secondly, autocannons aren't required. I've been begrudgingly taking some of them over the months specifically because I play against DE raider spam sometimes. Were that not a possibility, I would drop them in a heartbeat. This is because of...

Thirdly, there are LOTS of ways of taking down light transports. My personal favorites are meltaguns (because they're likely to do the job in just a single volley), priests (because usually when there are transports around, I'm going to want to multi-assault stuff, and priests are dead killy against transports), and frag grenades (because it's hilarious). Remember, anything that's good against a land raider is going to be FANTASTIC against a rhino.

Fourthly, apart from a few circumstances (like DE raider spam), don't take stuff just to take down transports. Odds are very high that you're going to spend way more on points to take down the transports (which won't really do much in most cases) than your opponent spent on transports. Put another way, you're putting bloat into your list on purpose. There are lots of things that you're already bringing that are good against transports, so just use those.

As for autocannon HWSs in specific, I usually took 2 or 3. Enough to spread out and get some firing lanes, but not too many so as to clog my deployment zone (and not throw away too many KP).

I've got some slightly different views and experience...

ElCheezus wrote:

RubberJonny wrote:Also to address your disregard of Hydras; i personally belive they are much more survivable than HWS as although Instant Death is certainly a concern any wounds are a threat when you have to rely on Ld7 to keep 'em in line and you may find that they are often deployed far enough back that they'll run off the board when that Leadership test is failed.

This... One hit can ace a team, then cause them to run due to their low LD.

HWS are probably the most fragile unit in the game, on paper. However getting them a 4+ cover save is usually not that hard, and having a regimental standard nearby is not much harder (and you'll therefore also have GBitF). With cover and standard, their durability is more reasonable. They have to be supported, and of course squeezing in a Lord Commissar helps alot as well. At 1500+, I usually have 4-5 HWS, and with the command triad of Company Commander (for orders), Regimental Standard (for reroll of morale), and Lord Commissar (for making those rerollable morale checks ld10 - not to mention orders), my batteries are a maximum efficiency and basically have to be completely destroyed to silence.

ElCheezus wrote:However, if you start adding anything like a Lord Commissar to increase survivability through a cloak or a LD bubble, you're dramatically increasing the cost of what should be a cheap unit.

But you can't just factor the support effects as if they only help one unit - they can help all of the infantry units in your army, and can help different units at different times in a battle. There are alot of tactical options once the battle starts.

ElCheezus wrote: I think Ailaros had it right when he started adding HWS to his PCS and CCS, and keeping them stationary. Not only do they have better LD and can take Vox casters to help with orders (if that's your sort of thing), but they have a couple ablative wounds to protect the HWS from ID.

True, and good reasons to go this route - but more expensive per gun, and an order to this squad only affects one gun, not three. Nothing stopping one from doing both.

ElCheezus wrote:The best heavy weapons in the IG codex come attached to vehicles. Compared to heavy weapons you can get on infantry, they're usually more resilient, cheaper, and more accurate (pick two, maybe all three).

I don't think its so cut-and-dry. I already made my argument for resiliancy, and the vehicles can't be twin-linked, so the squads are therefore more accurate (although the anti-skimmer aspect of the hydra could be said to be an accuracy buff). As for cheaper, i don't have my codex and have never used the hydra, but doesn't it have 2 AC's on it, whereas the AC HWS for the same price has 3? I guess you get the hull weapon too, and of course there is the whole move-and-fire. Then again, HWS's score, and can also fire out of a chimera. Not a simple comparison.

Ailaros wrote: Firstly, HWSs to NOT saturate with infantry squads. HWSs behave so much differently when you shoot at them, that they don't help each other's survivability. Low Ld, compared to high Ld stubborn, instantly loosing killing power v. lots of abblative wounds, low wound count (especially against S6+) vs. high wound count. I mean, if you've got a foot horde full of blobs, and a couple of HWSs, what is your opponent going to shoot their lascannons and autocannons at?

I think you guys have convinced me here. In an all-infantry army, one would probably be better served hiding the heavy weapons in line/command squads and/or blobs.

Ailaros wrote:Secondly, autocannons aren't required. I've been begrudgingly taking some of them over the months specifically because I play against DE raider spam sometimes. Were that not a possibility, I would drop them in a heartbeat. This is because of...

Thirdly, there are LOTS of ways of taking down light transports. My personal favorites are meltaguns (because they're likely to do the job in just a single volley), priests (because usually when there are transports around, I'm going to want to multi-assault stuff, and priests are dead killy against transports), and frag grenades (because it's hilarious). Remember, anything that's good against a land raider is going to be FANTASTIC against a rhino.

Fourthly, apart from a few circumstances (like DE raider spam), don't take stuff just to take down transports. Odds are very high that you're going to spend way more on points to take down the transports (which won't really do much in most cases) than your opponent spent on transports. Put another way, you're putting bloat into your list on purpose. There are lots of things that you're already bringing that are good against transports, so just use those.

I totally agree with all of this. If you've got multiple ways to take down heavy armour, then you've got multiple ways to take down transports as well. I start looking at squeezing in an AC HWS only after about 1500pts, when mechanized lists are going to have quite a few light vehicles, and you'll need more shots. For the most part, I find they are fairly crappy, so I've cut them from smaller points battles. I'm already bringing multilasers on chimeras, and lots of GL's in the infantry, so that covers the mid-strength to a certain extent, so I only ever bring one squad of autocannons (at <2000 anyways, I might consider more above that).

murdog wrote:HWS are probably the most fragile unit in the game, on paper. However getting them a 4+ cover save is usually not that hard, and having a regimental standard nearby is not much harder (and you'll therefore also have GBitF). With cover and standard, their durability is more reasonable. They have to be supported, and of course squeezing in a Lord Commissar helps alot as well. At 1500+, I usually have 4-5 HWS, and with the command triad of Company Commander (for orders), Regimental Standard (for reroll of morale), and Lord Commissar (for making those rerollable morale checks ld10 - not to mention orders), my batteries are a maximum efficiency and basically have to be completely destroyed to silence.

Yes, and you go through all this trouble and points expenditure to cover their weakness without actually making them any better at their job. Even then, they're still roughly as resilient as an equivalent points cost in vehicles. If you just take vehicles with heavy weapons instead, you can stay mobile and not spend points on LCs.

ElCheezus wrote:However, if you start adding anything like a Lord Commissar to increase survivability through a cloak or a LD bubble, you're dramatically increasing the cost of what should be a cheap unit.

But you can't just factor the support effects as if they only help one unit - they can help all of the infantry units in your army, and can help different units at different times in a battle. There are alot of tactical options once the battle starts.

You can spread their cost over multiple units, but there's no hiding the fact that you're spending more points than the codex entry to make a unit work.

ElCheezus wrote:The best heavy weapons in the IG codex come attached to vehicles. Compared to heavy weapons you can get on infantry, they're usually more resilient, cheaper, and more accurate (pick two, maybe all three).

I don't think its so cut-and-dry. I already made my argument for resiliancy, and the vehicles can't be twin-linked, so the squads are therefore more accurate (although the anti-skimmer aspect of the hydra could be said to be an accuracy buff). As for cheaper, i don't have my codex and have never used the hydra, but doesn't it have 2 AC's on it, whereas the AC HWS for the same price has 3? I guess you get the hull weapon too, and of course there is the whole move-and-fire. Then again, HWS's score, and can also fire out of a chimera. Not a simple comparison.

Hydras and Vendettas are twin-linked on their own. Comparing a HWT to a Hydra, the Hydra has more firepower by a very very small margin. That's before you consider small arms immunity, extra range, and the ability to ignore SMF. That's before the Heavy Bolter on the hull, too. The only way a HWS has anything on a Hydra is that it's Troops and not Heavy. I've never yet run into a case where I needed another troops unit or another Heavy slot since I've started running Hybrid. (of course, that's only at 1500 and 1850 so far).

The comparison between HWS with LasCannons and a Vendetta aren't as easy since there's a points difference, but it's also much clearer because, well, it's a Vendetta.

Ailaros wrote:there are LOTS of ways of taking down light transports. My personal favorites are meltaguns (because they're likely to do the job in just a single volley), priests (because usually when there are transports around, I'm going to want to multi-assault stuff, and priests are dead killy against transports), and frag grenades (because it's hilarious). Remember, anything that's good against a land raider is going to be FANTASTIC against a rhino.

But not all of us/our armies want to bust those transports with close range. Now with your playstyle and army you don't mind the enemy hitting the wall o' meat (IIRC, I haven't checked your blog/site in awhile (I hope you've done some more paintin' and covertin' )), but when I play a gunline style of list I prefer those rhino's dead as far away from my edge of the board/objectives. Just throwing that in there since alot of people have issues with your style (of awesome), so I'm just trying to say it works the other way too

Just Dave wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Just for tranny busting.

... What?!

odorofdeath wrote:Transports is what he meant, I hope. lol.

Everyone needs some lovin' Everyone

I compare them with a hydra. They don't take up a HS slot and are acually more survivable. One hit on armour 10 and you could lose your hydra, where if you space the HWS out well the chance of them all going from one ordnance shot is very low.

I am also looking at going 2AC/1ML for wound allocation. Unsure how well this is going to work.

The odds of a HWS taking a Str 6 BS 4 shot while in cover, losing a team, then breaking due to morale is ~11% per shot.

The odds of a Hydra taking the same shot on AV 10 and being wrecked is ~7.4% per shot.


If you're playing food guard, what are you using the Heavy slots for that it's such a big deal that you don't take them up with a Hydra?

2 Quick questions on heavy weapon teams:

Firstly, can they move and run like infantry or are they immobile?

Secondly, is it acceptable to mount a team on 25mm bases? My missile teams have one model with the launcher shoulder mounted, and a "loader" carrying the ammo.

I use a couple in a metla power blob for in a take on all comers list, all other blobs are of a melta power variety.

I find this one squad gives a nice vesitility when needed and for 20 points I can play some more wound shenanigans!

ElCheezus wrote:Yes, and you go through all this trouble and points expenditure to cover their weakness without actually making them any better at their job.

But it does make them better at their job, taking BiD and FomT on LD10 makes them shoot better and taking I!, GBitF, and (rerollable) morale checks on LD10 makes them more likely to survive to shoot more or score. AKA better at their job.

ElCheezus wrote:You can spread their cost over multiple units, but there's no hiding the fact that you're spending more points than the codex entry to make a unit work.

I would say I'm spending more points than the codex entries to make multiple units work better. They already 'work', they just take more care than other units to get the most out of them.

ElCheezus wrote:If you're playing food guard, what are you using the Heavy slots for that it's such a big deal that you don't take them up with a Hydra?

Tanks and artillery for me - as the Heavy Support slot is the only place to get pie (excepting the rockets on the gunship), I stock up on that, as it's one of my favorite things about the guard. The rest of the codex can handle any other job.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:2 Quick questions on heavy weapon teams:

Firstly, can they move and run like infantry or are they immobile?

Secondly, is it acceptable to mount a team on 25mm bases? My missile teams have one model with the launcher shoulder mounted, and a "loader" carrying the ammo.

They move and run like infantry.

I have the same missile launcher setup, but I put the two models on a proper HW base (unglued so far). It makes a difference, I think, as it is supposed to be a single two-wound model, and it makes a difference for blasts/close combats.

HWS versus Hydra.

Hydra is more durable.

HWS >Hydra in firepower They both average 3 hits per turn, and the HWS can TL with orders. Flat out hydra rules rarely used.

HWS is a scoring unit.

That being said the Hydra is a more popular option because it is so much more survivable than a HWS. There are a few cases I can see a HWS fitting well into many lists.

#1) The list is out of heavy support slots, which is pretty easy to do in IG if some of the less expensive HS choices are taken such as basilisk, griffon, or hydras. Example being 1 Manticore + 1 griffon + and 1 hydra for HS=310 points. Plenty of points are left over for a HWS

#2) The list has a lord commissar

#3) There is merit to buying an hydra + HWS rather than squadron 2 hydras because as 2 separate units they can split their firepower (6 AC hits is usually overkill against raiders), and the remaining hydra is more survivable as it doesn't die from being immobilized.

I'd also note that, when it comes to firepower, the hydra isn't necessarily more durable. Remember, hydras can suffer shaken results that shut the whole tank down, while the same round of shooting would just kill a single gun. Assuming they stuck around, the HWS would get to shoot 2 autocannons instead of 0.

In order for the HWS to be on par with the Hydra, it needs support units. That creates further investment in points, an HQ slot, and restricts the movement and field opportunities of the support.

When you factor in the cost of support units, even twin-linked Autocannon HWS fall short of the efficiency of the Hydra.

The reasons for taking an Autocannon HWS over a Hydra are 1) already-full Heavy slots, 2) desperate need for scoring units (even though you already have a platoon), 3) there's no Hydra model.

Assuming the HWS and the Hydra get hit with a ML shot, there's a 65.2% chance the HWS can still fire the next turn (82.6% with cover). That's a 24% increase in odds of being able to shoot, if they're in cover. You have to weigh that against the 56% increase in the odds of that shot breaking vs wrecking. Plus, the missed turns shooting from being shaken can probably be balanced against the HWS's inability to move without sacrificing firing.

It's definitely a contorted comparison once you move beyond firepower, but you're really stretching now, Big C! Those stats are fairly fuzzy, and I'm not sure shaken and no move-and-fire balance really 'balance' each other - I don't think I've ever wanted to move a HWS while one of it's preferred targets was in range and LoS. Also, I think you miss the point a little about the 'support units' - imo the HWS's are the support units! They are there to fire on specific target types, and should always covered by redundancy in the list. They are as disposable as a line squad. I don't factor the 'cost' of 'support' units for the HWS's - you already have to take at least one HQ, and 2/3 of the choices directly benefit as many infantry units as are in range, including but not limited to, HWS's. I don't really see the movement and field opportunities being 'restricted' when I've already decided to use CCS-supported heavy weapons in my list. Once the battle starts, there is nothing stopping the CCS, and especially the Lord, from doing something else to help win the battle.

All that being said, if you really, really, really want a dedicated transport-buster in your army, and you don't have your Heavy Support picked out, I do think the Hydra wins. But I wouldn't argue because of firepower or durability. Move and fire, always twinlinked, and the anti-skimmer bonus, plus HHF, ramming, cruising, LoS blocking, AV12 - all of that beats scoring (in a list with a platoon already) and an extra gun (when an order is required to equal the firepower of the Hydra anyways).

As an aside, like I said earlier I use HWS's every battle, and to me the biggest weakness of them is not their fragility (which can be minimized with support, and besides, they're just guardsmen, don't be sad if you lose them - you did build redundancy into your list, right?), which is undeniable. The biggest weakness of having them in your list is when you roll a Dawn of War engagement. This is especially true where you're going second and the opponent will be deepstriking or drop podding assault and/or templates first turn. Having your HWS's walk on is bad enough, so the preferred deployment is 2x HWS and the CCS, to get the firebase up and running right away. But if they're just going to come down and eat that all for breakfast first turn, I go with a combined squad, with either a platoon commie or the lord commie, to bubblewrap the HWS (and CCS if it's there) for a turn. I know I said the HWS is expendable, and it is, but I like to give it a chance to shoot!

Sorry for the wall of text - I loves me heavy weapons!

murdog wrote:Those stats are fairly fuzzy

How so?

Let's use a ML, and assume it hits.

Odds of a HWS out of cover being wounded and failing the morale= 5/6 (to wound) * 1 (no save) * 15/36 (chance to fail LD 7)= 34.7%

If that doesn't happen, then they can fire the next turn, so: 1 - 34.7% = 65.3%

In cover = 5/6 * 1/2 * 15/36 = 17.4%

To keep firing next turn: 1 - 17.4% = 82.6%

Hydra: 2/6 (to pen) * 4/6 (chance to shake, stun, wreck, or explode) + 1/6 (to glance) * 4/6 (to shake or stun) = 33.3% to not fire

To keep firing: 1 - 33.3% = 66.7%

% change in ability to keep shooting = HWS / Hydra numbers.

Out of cover: 65.3% / 66.7% = .979. The HWS is less likely to keep shooting, a 2.1% decrease.
In cover: 82.6% / 66.7% = 1.24. The HWS is 24% more likely to keep shooting.

Raw survivability, same ML shot.

HWS odds of being wounded and breaking
HWS out of cover: 5/6 * 15/36 = 34.7%
HWS in cover = 5/6 * 1/2 * 15/36 = 17.4%

Hydra odds of being destroyed/wrecked = 2/6 (to pen) * 2/6 (to wreck or destroy) = 11.1%

% change in odds of dying/running/wrecking/what have you:

out of cover = 34.7% / 11.1% = 3.12, a 212% increase for the HWS to be broken vs the Hydra wrecking
in cover = 17.4% / 11.1% = 1.56, a 56.3 % increase for the HWS to book it.

murdog wrote:Sorry for the wall of text - I loves me heavy weapons!

And I love my statistics spreadsheets.

Sorry if this is tangential, but I was wondering if putting an auto-cannon team in a mach-vet squad would be worth while?

Not sure if this loadout is legal but I was thinking:

Vets
Chimera
3x Plasma
Auto Cannon