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an odd suggestion from me. if you are worried about transports, auto cannons are good, but, lascannons are good too.

for 30 points, add the demo to a vet squad. each person getting melta bombs is huge.

That's better Big C, thanks - I just wasn't sure where all the numbers were coming from, as you were just throwing a few of them out there and not showing how you got them. I can't really work backwards from a conclusion; I failed first year statistics - twice!

I usually don't add all of that because it takes up a lot of space, and not everybody wants to see it. Maybe I'll type it all up, but put it under a spoiler tab from now on. That should work.

This is something i've had a fair bit of experiance in. The purpose of HWS is to do what damage they can and then die. I've tried many a time to protect them, but they just die. So what good are they? The idea is to take out their main targets and then become expendable. They arn't meant to be survivable. They're meant to be effective. In order to get the most out of them you definatly want to be using orders.

I'm afraid i'm going to go against Ailaros here. As for taking autocannons, they provide a safer way to deal with high end threats. Most light vehicles are more of a threat to horde infantry than anything else. Look at our own chimera. Adding a H.Stubber you get 9 decent anti-infantry shots. That will cause a fair bit of damage while you plod along trying to get your melta in range. The other light vehicle is the troop transport. Once again, once your melta is within range, it's too late to prevent a full on charge. The autocannon allows you to take these threats out at a distance where they are more manageable. Once those threats are dealt with, the autocannon has done its job. Anything you kill after that is a bonus. The enemy will try to take out your HWS first which is why you need to make sure they do their job before the enemy kills them. A bonus to this is that your infantry take less firepower in the meantime so they're in slightly better condition for the mid to late game than they otherwise would be (not by much though lol). Another little bonus is that the enemy will drive forwards which brings your power blobs into charge range earlier (Ideal countercharge conditions to protect your gun-line with a very effective power blob). When you look at the largest threat to a horde army, light vehicles will come higher than most. Many heavy vehicles for example will focus on high strength, low ap weapons that are plain overkill against a horde army and are better suited against tanks or heavy infantry. Most light vehicle are suited to gunning down hordes or moving troops forward to tear them up instead. These vehicles need to be high up in your list of priorities, along with MC's and fast moving assualt units.

The right ammount of autocannons (Or HWS in general) to take depends on what you expect to face. I use mine as an add on which supplements a solid infantry core. My core can do a bit of everything if it has to but if I'm expecting to face lots of transports i'll take an Autocannon HWS per transport I expect to face. Generally I'll take one HWS per target. That includes lascannons for heavier tanks. The squads arn't cheap but they are cheaper than most of their targets which should allow you to overwhlem opponants with effective firepower and force of numbers. A point i'll make about lascannon HWS is that they arn't greatly effective against AV14 but against a land raider for example. I'll take a lascannon HWS and my core already has melta guns and bombs in a few locations to provide back-up as nescessary. This gives me a chance to take out the threat at a safe distance but if that fails, I have units ready to intercept it before it causes too much damage.

Creed AND Kell can be a huge bonus to a foot army. You get four orders AND get to take the orders on Creed's LD10 if you take Kell. You also get the 'For Cadia' special order to make the most of your blobbed squads. This provides a stable firebase and counter charge which is essential to gun-line. It also provides a key safety net since Creed has a 24'' order range. You can catch falling back units before they head off your board edge. They're expensive but well worth it if you use them right. You can achieve simmiller thing but with less effectiveness with a standard command squad for low points or by adding just Creed alone.

I think another huge factor in the viability of the AC HWS is the point level of the game.

3 vendettas + 3 expensive HS (Manticore or Lemus Russ variant of your choice) is a huge chunk of points at 1,500 points, and is quite possibly too expensive for the IG player. At that point in time replacing a more expensive HS with Hydras makes a lot of sense, and saves a lot of points.

3 vendettas + 3 expensive HS (Manticore or Lemus Russ variant of your choice) is a not a lot of points at 2,500 points, and is very affordable for an IG player. At that point level the board is very crowded, pie plates are more effective, and HS slots are in very short supply and heavy demand. It might not be worth it at that point level to give up a nasty pie flinging HS option for an IG player. Without Hydras the only cheap AC options left are to give it to combined blob squads, HWS, or both. Personally I say both because if AC are only in HWS they are more likely to be targeted by the other side, but if it's in both HWS and blobs the other side is just going to have to accept that they will get shot by AC anyways because the blobs are too hard to kill.

ElCheezus wrote:In order for the HWS to be on par with the Hydra, it needs support units.

You know, I'm not actually completely convinced that this is true. Both hydras and autocannon squads give you cheap, flimsy, disposable long range firepower. HWSs don't need support units to make this true.

The difference here is that with HWSs, unlike hydras, you have the OPTION to make them better with support units. You don't NEED to spend points on support units to make HWS fulfill their primary role.