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I'll be playing against a DE player next weekend who is more experienced than I am. Any advice as far as tactics and what units to bring or not bring? I've got access to all Eldar units except for a jet council, shining spears, and harlies. I've seen this guy play a little and suspect he's going to throw the predictable jetbikes + transports + tri-lance skimmers against me. Anyone have experience using Eldar vs DE? Or can any DE players say what gives them a bit of a challenge vs Eldar?

You are going to have less units than him since your codex is older and your units more expensive.

strength 6 weapons are your friend, which means War Walkers. Outflanking them is a decent option. Also, leave the Fire Dragons at home since he has no heavy armor. I would be sure to bring Eldrad or a Farseer since they have no psychic defense and Fortune/Doom is your friend.

Banshees I think would be really good against them and also leave the Avatar at home since he will go down fast to all the poison. Also, at least you will be wounded on a 4+ against them unlike a 3+ for bolters and the like.

Bring lots of S6 shooting and stay moving. So just business as normal, but keep the enemies threat range in mind, it is rather long.

Also, banshees aren't that good against DE, you don't need them against warriors (too easy to kill with anything, scorps do the job just fine) and wyches don't care about power weapons, 4++ save and hitting back is all they need.

notabot187 wrote:Bring lots of S6 shooting and stay moving. So just business as normal, but keep the enemies threat range in mind, it is rather long.

Also, banshees aren't that good against DE, you don't need them against warriors (too easy to kill with anything, scorps do the job just fine) and wyches don't care about power weapons, 4++ save and hitting back is all they need.

So Scorpions are a decent option?

As a DE player, I have to agree with what has been said.

You will wreck with guided S6 vs his vehicles.

Don't bother taking Fire Dragons.

If he's taking a ton of Reavers, Night Spinners Could ruin his day.

Presuming your playing a mechdar-ish list your target priority should be something like;

1. Ravagers, or any heavy support option with multiple dark lances.
2. Any transport carrying trueborn.
3. Scourges, or anything with haywire blasters.

If you are more footdar;
1. VENOMS
2. Razorwing are scary, and good for an anti-infantry alphastrike, so kill them if you go first.

Final note; wyches with a pain token are vicious in combat. And incubi will murder your striking scorpions, but banshees will murder his incubi.

mercury14 wrote:

So Scorpions are a decent option?

scorps are better than banshees vs DE. The only thing banshees will do is kill Incubi, but DE are fast, they usually will get to choose the engadgment. I suppose the banshees will also ignore FNP, but really Banshees are just asking to be hit with wyches who will out fight them with combat drugs, strike first in successive rounds and cost half the points.

Str6 spam is great, holofields on anything important(DE have very little AP1)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370531.page

Uhh I did it twice in a tournament, if you have any specific questions ask.

Dark Eldar are better at close combat, your better at shooting. Bring lots of wave serpents or war walkers and shoot stuff till it dies. Armor 10 open topped gets eaten by scatter lasers hardore. Also try to get the first turn of shooting, if you dont go first, reserve. If he has vect and can steal initiative on a 4+, assume he will do so and elect to go second and reserve anyway.

All eldar weaponry is str4 ap 5, so you will instant kill most DE models, especially wyches.

Avoid close combat with wyches at all costs, never charge them, shoot them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

So Scorpions are a decent option?

scorps are better than banshees vs DE. The only thing banshees will do is kill Incubi, but DE are fast, they usually will get to choose the engadgment. I suppose the banshees will also ignore FNP, but really Banshees are just asking to be hit with wyches who will out fight them with combat drugs, strike first in successive rounds and cost half the points.

Str6 spam is great, holofields on anything important(DE have very little AP1)

Why would eldar be in close combat?

wait for a codex update. LOL no the wave serpent is your best friend here as well as SS and HB. And even though Eldar Psychic powers have been nerfed never forget to use them.

What about a dual-Autarch all-reserve list? On turn 2 (assuming a 2+) I'll bring in:

3 War Walkers w/Scatter lasers, outflanking
Holo-Falcon w/Scatter laser, shuriken cannon
Holo-Falcon w/Scatter laser, shuriken cannon

2X Vyper w/Scatter laser
1X Vyper w/Scatter laser
1X Vyper w/Scatter laser

10x Guardians w/Scatter laser
10x Guardians w/Scatter laser

9 Jetbikes w/3x Shuriken Cannons, plus Jet Autarch and Reaper Launcher
1 Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, 10 DAs, dualcat Exarch w/bladestorm, Autarch with Avengercat and scorpion chainsword
1 Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, 6 DAs
1 Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Lasers, 5 DAs

2000 pts

I'll go second and come in at the bottom of turn #2. That's 79 S6 shots and, two S8 shots, and two S5 shots, at up to eleven different targets. After the initial barrage I'd look for an opening to disembark the large DA unit on whatever troops look shootable.

How would something like this do?

Why are you tailoring a list if I might ask? Is it assumed that both parties will be list tailoring? The reason I ask is because an Eldar list tailored to just fight Dark Eldar will be very different from a regular Eldar list. Same goes with the DE tailoring versus Eldar.

Dire Avengers are awesome regardless, but I recommend 1-2 full DA squads with defend and shimmershields. This unit with psyker support beats THSS termies, and is also great versus anything the DE can throw at it point for point. Add the wave serpent transports with a mix of scatter lasers and bright lances, plus fire dragons in a transport. Bikes with cannons are great little troop squads if you have enough serpents. As for fast attack, I always fall back on 3 fire prisms for the variable shots and holofields, but war walkers and falcons dont suck by any means. HQs almost always begin with Eldrad.

I would not extremely tailor lists if I were you, cause in the OP you mention you opponent is more experienced. Instead of list tailoring, work with a deep and balanced palate and use your units in new ways, play to the mission, and try to learn from your losses if your balanced list comes up short. DE are by no means a broken book, a balanced list will beat them just fine.

Don't try to play the assault game. DE have better units, and open-topped transports, you'll get the "£$% kicked out of you. Take as many scatter lasers as possible, on wave serpents, war walkers, vypers. For troops to occupy the wave serpents, I recommend 5-man dire avenger squads, use them cautiously. Take a farseer with guide as your HQ.

Basically, they have a newer and more flexible army book, just spam the best shooting units available and you should have an even chance against even a nasty DE army.

DevianID wrote:Why are you tailoring a list if I might ask? Is it assumed that both parties will be list tailoring? The reason I ask is because an Eldar list tailored to just fight Dark Eldar will be very different from a regular Eldar list. Same goes with the DE tailoring versus Eldar.

Dire Avengers are awesome regardless, but I recommend 1-2 full DA squads with defend and shimmershields. This unit with psyker support beats THSS termies, and is also great versus anything the DE can throw at it point for point. Add the wave serpent transports with a mix of scatter lasers and bright lances, plus fire dragons in a transport. Bikes with cannons are great little troop squads if you have enough serpents. As for fast attack, I always fall back on 3 fire prisms for the variable shots and holofields, but war walkers and falcons dont suck by any means. HQs almost always begin with Eldrad.

Not really, an Eldar list tailored to fight Dark Eldar isn't going to look that much different from a tournament list simply because the Eldar codex has so few competitive options available. You aren't going to be taking any of the assault units, so nothing changes there, and the S6 spam you want against Dark Eldar is one of the few things Eldar have going for them anyway, so should be already present in any kind of competitive list. Avengers in that config are terrible against Dark Eldar, its not great in the best of circumstances. The Terminator example is a pretty bad one mostly because Dark Eldar hit a hell of a lot harder than Terminators. If its just assault based then the even with Doom the Terminators have a very good chance of winning, they won't die or break after 1 round and after that your 7ish Avengers won't be killing 2-3 Terminators very quickly, if you factor in shooting with the Doom/Guide Seer + a Serpent (to keep them from dying) then yes 5 Terminators die buts its hardly a reasonably comparison, particularly because you are ignoring how fragile those Avengers are and how much other stuff the Marine player has to kill them with. Dark Eldar don't care about your Shimmershield because they can just bury you under a mass of attacks, you won't win combats 1 v 1 against a squad of Wyches (which cost less than you even factoring in a Raider to transport them, which almost guarantees they he gets the charge not you) and any of the harder hitters will squash you without breaking a sweat.

Mech Eldar are actually one of the toughest matchups for Dark Eldar, I play both and constantly find myself designing lists for Eldar which I think my Dark Eldar (which on the whole are far far more competitive) would struggle against. Mech Guard are commonly portrayed as the hardest matchup for DE, but good Eldar lists trade the additional long ranged firepower Guard have for mobility (which means the DE assault units will struggle to catch you), and usually even more S6 shooting. Considering S6 shooting is all you need to kill pretty much everything in the DE army then you should have a solid base no matter what you do.

@ mercury14. That list you posted is ok but needs a bit of work, Guardians are a waste of time (you already have 3 scoring units in vehicles + the Jetbikes and are taking slow BS3 Ld8 95pts Scatter Lasers rather than 60pt ones on Vypers?), you have nothing to put in the Falcons and you definitely shouldn't be outflanking the Walkers. I'm also not convinced that the Jetbikes will do very well and tooled up Autarchs are a bad idea (you want the reserve buff and that's about it, giving them heaps of gear just makes them an expensive target with T3 and no EW). For reference this is my latest 2000pt list which I've been playing around with, its a TAC list (as I never list tailor) so stuff like the Dragons are probably overkill against DE but I expect it to do pretty well against them in any case. Everything is fast, everything can give cover to everything else and 3 Holo Falcons are an absolute nightmare to actually kill off (Vypers or Serpents screen them in objective missions and with cover they are harder to kill than a Land Raider) so only having 3 scoring units isn't much of an issue (you can cut 3 Vypers and get 3 minimum sized Jetbike units if you want).

Farseer, Doom, Guide, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones
135pts

Autarch, Fusion Gun, Scorpion Chainsword
85pts

5 Fire Dragons
80pts

Wave Serpent, T/L Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
135pts

5 Fire Dragons
80pts

Wave Serpent, T/L Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
135pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Smitty0305 wrote:
Why would eldar be in close combat?

DE have a huge charge range and can open transports. If the DE player wants to get to CC it may eventually come to that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:I'll go second and come in at the bottom of turn #2.

Be very careful reserving against a DE player. They can move into your deployment zone and spread out. Because you cant move within 1" of an enemy model and if you cannot move on are destroyed you will have to skim over them. If they have enough units you will be force to move your skimmers flat out onto the table to get them over the DE units. Simmilarly jetbikes will have to turbo boost.

The reason why i mentioned scorpions earlier is they are an assault unit that actually will do OK agianst DE assault units. Most De players bring wyches as their assault units, which just laugh at rending and power weapons (making banshees and harlies not very good) But scorps have boosted strength, and a good armor save. So the wyches, who have 1 PW that wounds on 4s relying on normal S3 attacks to do the job will not fair all that great against scorpion armor, nor will they like the number of S4 attacks coming at them. They still won't die quickly, especially if they have their FNP up, but it is about the only hope for an eldar list to hold up these rather annoying squads in combat (and with tons of attacks, and HW vs vehicles, they are very dangerous).

So how to use scorpions against DE? Use them as a counter strike squad, when the DE catch up to your main force (and you are kidding yourself thinking they they can't match the eldar in speed, DE are even faster if they want to be), let the scorpions out of their wave serpent (yeah, kinda unusual to even have one for them, and its rather annoying dealing with the fact it isn't an assault vehicle, but its workable in a counter assault role).

notabot187 wrote:The reason why i mentioned scorpions earlier is they are an assault unit that actually will do OK agianst DE assault units. Most De players bring wyches as their assault units, which just laugh at rending and power weapons (making banshees and harlies not very good) But scorps have boosted strength, and a good armor save. So the wyches, who have 1 PW that wounds on 4s relying on normal S3 attacks to do the job will not fair all that great against scorpion armor, nor will they like the number of S4 attacks coming at them. They still won't die quickly, especially if they have their FNP up, but it is about the only hope for an eldar list to hold up these rather annoying squads in combat (and with tons of attacks, and HW vs vehicles, they are very dangerous).

So how to use scorpions against DE? Use them as a counter strike squad, when the DE catch up to your main force (and you are kidding yourself thinking they they can't match the eldar in speed, DE are even faster if they want to be), let the scorpions out of their wave serpent (yeah, kinda unusual to even have one for them, and its rather annoying dealing with the fact it isn't an assault vehicle, but its workable in a counter assault role).

Basically its a circle. Scorps beat Wyches who beat Howling Banshees who beat Incubi who beat Scorpions. DE players take more wyches than incubi and in a tailored list they are unlikely to take that many incubi fearing banshees and not needing the anti Meq combat unit.

Shooting them is still a better idea but Eldar are going to need some combat units. Something to really threaten trueborn, warriors, reavers, scourges. DE can do shooty too and if I know an Eldar player is not even going to attempt combat ill go shooty with just enough tie things up.

Powerguy wrote:

Not really, an Eldar list tailored to fight Dark Eldar isn't going to look that much different from a tournament list simply because the Eldar codex has so few competitive options available. You aren't going to be taking any of the assault units, so nothing changes there, and the S6 spam you want against Dark Eldar is one of the few things Eldar have going for them anyway, so should be already present in any kind of competitive list. Avengers in that config are terrible against Dark Eldar, its not great in the best of circumstances. The Terminator example is a pretty bad one mostly because Dark Eldar hit a hell of a lot harder than Terminators. If its just assault based then the even with Doom the Terminators have a very good chance of winning, they won't die or break after 1 round and after that your 7ish Avengers won't be killing 2-3 Terminators very quickly, if you factor in shooting with the Doom/Guide Seer + a Serpent (to keep them from dying) then yes 5 Terminators die buts its hardly a reasonably comparison, particularly because you are ignoring how fragile those Avengers are and how much other stuff the Marine player has to kill them with. Dark Eldar don't care about your Shimmershield because they can just bury you under a mass of attacks, you won't win combats 1 v 1 against a squad of Wyches (which cost less than you even factoring in a Raider to transport them, which almost guarantees they he gets the charge not you) and any of the harder hitters will squash you without breaking a sweat.

Mech Eldar are actually one of the toughest matchups for Dark Eldar, I play both and constantly find myself designing lists for Eldar which I think my Dark Eldar (which on the whole are far far more competitive) would struggle against. Mech Guard are commonly portrayed as the hardest matchup for DE, but good Eldar lists trade the additional long ranged firepower Guard have for mobility (which means the DE assault units will struggle to catch you), and usually even more S6 shooting. Considering S6 shooting is all you need to kill pretty much everything in the DE army then you should have a solid base no matter what you do.

@ mercury14. That list you posted is ok but needs a bit of work, Guardians are a waste of time (you already have 3 scoring units in vehicles + the Jetbikes and are taking slow BS3 Ld8 95pts Scatter Lasers rather than 60pt ones on Vypers?), you have nothing to put in the Falcons and you definitely shouldn't be outflanking the Walkers. I'm also not convinced that the Jetbikes will do very well and tooled up Autarchs are a bad idea (you want the reserve buff and that's about it, giving them heaps of gear just makes them an expensive target with T3 and no EW). For reference this is my latest 2000pt list which I've been playing around with, its a TAC list (as I never list tailor) so stuff like the Dragons are probably overkill against DE but I expect it to do pretty well against them in any case. Everything is fast, everything can give cover to everything else and 3 Holo Falcons are an absolute nightmare to actually kill off (Vypers or Serpents screen them in objective missions and with cover they are harder to kill than a Land Raider) so only having 3 scoring units isn't much of an issue (you can cut 3 Vypers and get 3 minimum sized Jetbike units if you want).

Farseer, Doom, Guide, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones
135pts

Autarch, Fusion Gun, Scorpion Chainsword
85pts

5 Fire Dragons
80pts

Wave Serpent, T/L Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
135pts

5 Fire Dragons
80pts

Wave Serpent, T/L Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones
135pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

5 Dire Avengers
60pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

3 Vypers, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
210pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Falcon, EML, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields
180pts

Thanks for the tips. You'd give the Falcons EMLs though instead of Scatter Lasers? For the defensive plasma missile option, or? Also I don't own 9 Vypers (does anyone?) so I'd have to mix in jetbikes. I agree that a jet-tarch would just be a huge target for squishing, though that's a lure that could be exploited.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Don't try to play the assault game. DE have better units, and open-topped transports, you'll get the "£$% kicked out of you. Take as many scatter lasers as possible, on wave serpents, war walkers, vypers. For troops to occupy the wave serpents, I recommend 5-man dire avenger squads, use them cautiously. Take a farseer with guide as your HQ.

Basically, they have a newer and more flexible army book, just spam the best shooting units available and you should have an even chance against even a nasty DE army.

yep


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I just want to emphasize that Eldar has a VERY LARGE advantage over dark eldar....and in the magority of games ive played and seen, and the magority of eldar and dark eldar players ive talked to from a local to a grand tournament crowd...is that eldar can beat dark eldar due to efficient str 6 spam.

Also the autarch/double autarch is a great idea and should always be done with an eldar army. Eldar vs DarK Eldar is alot about alpha striking. Whoever gets the alpha strike (the first round of shooting) will usually win. A Good Eldar alpha strike can take out 5+ dark eldar vehicles and is the key to winning the game.

Whoever said Scorpains and banshees are viable against dark eldar, thats wrong. Wyches have a 4+ invul in close combat, and a 6+ normal vs shooting. This leads me to believe that I should shoot them to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:
Why would eldar be in close combat?

DE have a huge charge range and can open transports. If the DE player wants to get to CC it may eventually come to that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:I'll go second and come in at the bottom of turn #2.

Be very careful reserving against a DE player. They can move into your deployment zone and spread out. Because you cant move within 1" of an enemy model and if you cannot move on are destroyed you will have to skim over them. If they have enough units you will be force to move your skimmers flat out onto the table to get them over the DE units. Simmilarly jetbikes will have to turbo boost.

The only thing DE should ever get a charge on is a skimmer thats moved 12.

Smitty0305 wrote:

Whoever said Scorpains and banshees are viable against dark eldar, thats wrong. Wyches have a 4+ invul in close combat, and a 6+ normal vs shooting. This leads me to believe that I should shoot them to death.

Well sure, but Scorpions are adequate at something that's T3 with a 4+ save, right?

Wow, really? My friend plays Eldar and I play DE and I find I can take his Autarch out easy. A Farseer with the reroll to saves is much harder for me to take down.

Foo wrote:Wow, really? My friend plays Eldar and I play DE and I find I can take his Autarch out easy. A Farseer with the reroll to saves is much harder for me to take down.

Autarchs are there to let your whole force come in from reserve on turn 2. It's no big deal if they get killed.

Incidentally, Autarchs have 3 wounds with a 3+/4++ save and a higher WS than a Farseer. He's harder to take down unless the Farseer 1) has fortune, 2) uses it on himself instead of another unit.

Ah, right.

mercury14 wrote:
Thanks for the tips. You'd give the Falcons EMLs though instead of Scatter Lasers? For the defensive plasma missile option, or? Also I don't own 9 Vypers (does anyone?) so I'd have to mix in jetbikes. I agree that a jet-tarch would just be a huge target for squishing, though that's a lure that could be exploited.

The Falcons have EMLs mostly because its an all comers list, and the recent surge in Riflemen/Psyriflemen Dreads which have to be taken out from range (no way Dragons will get there against an opponent with a brain) means that I need the S8 shooting. It lets them provide fire support from range (I don't really want to be within 24", because that's within assault range of some things and within melta range of most things), and the EML doesn't really lose much compared to the Scatter against infantry particularly because of the ability to move 12" and fire it. I don't own 9 Vypers yet either, but you can always proxy them.

Lures work when they are cheap and dangerous, not when they are expensive and barely threatening. An Autarch hits relatively hard on the charge (which you won't get very often against DE anyway), but after that he is just deadweight in combat, 6 S3 attacks don't scare anyone. To repeat what I said before, Autarch's are there to get you the reserves bonus and open up the full reserve game, even fully loading them up with equipment you still just end up with a T3 S3 model with low survivability and no real punch.

Scorpions are better than Banshees against DE, but they are still pretty bad. Your chances of getting the charge (excluding stuff like suicide Blaster Trueborn which he won't care if you charge because they have already done their job) are very low and 1 v 1 you struggle to beat Wyches with FNP. Any of the proper assault units like Beasts, Incubi, Grotesques, Harlies and the Court (which admittedly I haven't seen anyone use despite it being decent) will all go before you or at the same time (with armour or toughness to take it) and will rip you to pieces.

mercury14 wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Whoever said Scorpains and banshees are viable against dark eldar, thats wrong. Wyches have a 4+ invul in close combat, and a 6+ normal vs shooting. This leads me to believe that I should shoot them to death.

Well sure, but Scorpions are adequate at something that's T3 with a 4+ save, right?

No, They Arnt.

Wyches are Initiative 6, Scorpians are Initiative 5. Wyches have open topped vehicles to get a charge, scorpians dont. Wyches get FNP , which is the biggest problem. Wyches are also troops, so theres probably 3 or 4 squads around to counter charge.

If your eldar you shouldnt be in close combat with dark eldar.......and honestly if your playing a competitive eldar army it shouldnt have scorpians lol.

Not that this is a strategy against DE, but one of my Autarchs on a jetbike with lance and mandiblaster wiped out a squad of five Blood Angel assault marines the other day in a single attack, without ever giving them a chance to respond.

That's just your dice rolling hot, not something you can rely on at all. On average you kill 3.34 Marines on the charge, and 0.37 Marines when you aren't on the charge ... Basically if you don't kill those 5 Marines on the charge they could just as easily kill you. If they have one (which they should), you also have just below a 50% chance of dying to the Power Fist Sarge every round.

mercury, your flag says you're in JP.
Happen to be in Tokyo area? I'm an Eldar player as well, but I've yet to actually meet another eldar player here. Kind of weird.

Powerguy wrote:That's just your dice rolling hot, not something you can rely on at all. On average you kill 3.34 Marines on the charge, and 0.37 Marines when you aren't on the charge ... Basically if you don't kill those 5 Marines on the charge they could just as easily kill you. If they have one (which they should), you also have just below a 50% chance of dying to the Power Fist Sarge every round.

Yeah definitely a lucky roll, only about a 19% chance of bagging five of them, but you have something like a 30% chance of bagging four. Really though, if it's just a unit of five of them and I have a number of other Jetbike Guardians and a witchblade Jetlock with enhance, I'm likely to wipe the squad no matter what. I guess FNP could foil me though. *grumble*

One of the best anti DE unit in the game is the most viable troops choice for an Eldar player: Mechanized Dire Avengers.

Bladestorm + DE T3 squishiness=Splat

Bladestorm + Doom + DE T3 squishiness=Double Splat, even cover and FNP probably won't be enough to save a DE unit.

Between the 18" range of DA and the ability to jump back into a transport on the next turn the DA driveby tactic is well suited for remaining highly mobile which is much needed when fighting DE.

Basically mech DE has a very bad matchup against mech eldar. Serpents, falcons and walkers are all going to be part of what makes a good anti-de list, and they also work well normally.