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So when I started out playing I got a friend of mine into WH40k by sharing a box of AOBR with him, I obviously got the ork half. Now the problem: Up to today, his Crimson Fists didn't win a single match, and he is getting kind of frustrated about it.

All I know about marines is how many orks of what kind I need to kill something or how dangerous what unit is to me. I can pinpoint the weaknesses in his army, but not tell him how to fix them.

So the real questions:

What are common army variants for vanilla marines?

What units are actually 'good' and which ones should be bought first?

Are there must-have weapons or wargear?

Is Pedro Cantor viable, and if yes, how do you use him?

I'd also like to add that I'm not his most common enemy, so tailoring his list against orks/battlewagon bash wouldn't help him much.

Jidmah wrote:
What are common army variants for vanilla marines?

There's a fair few builds available, most of which revolve around one of the special characters.

"Vanilla"; Rhino borne Tact squads and librarian character, armor to back you up, often uses assault terminators + LR. Basically the standard list. Uses a lot of rhinos and/or razorbacks, predators and landspeeders.

"Vulkan"; Like "Vanilla" but with Vulkan leading. Every special weapon should be a flamer or melta-weapon. Almost always has Assault terminators + LR. Basically the list exploits Vulkan's ability to twin-link every flamer and melta weapon and master-craft the thunder hammers by taking as many of them as possible. Vulkan is a potent force multiplier and this is (was?) one of the core competitive marine armies.

Drop-pod assault; Exactly what it sounds like, everyone in drop pods. Lets you pick and choose where you deploy. Army usually uses a fair amount of Dreadnoughts. DP assault is often combined with Vulkan for deep-striking melta crazyness or other character traits.

Dread-bash; Not overly competitive in my opinion, but basically uses a techmarine for a 6 dreadnought list.

"Rodeo"; Captain on a bike as your HQ, scoring bike squads as troops. Fast, tough and fairly unique army. Uses multiple bike squads with attack bikes, land speeders and whatnot in it's builds. The downside of this list is that's it's expensive as all hell to purchase and is vulnerable to massed heavy weapons and getting locked in combat.

Shrike; Uses lots of footslogging, fleet, infiltrating assault terminators and assault squads. Kind of a 1 trick pony, but fun to spring on people that aren't expecting it.

Pedro; Similar to "Vanilla" but uses at least 1-2 units of Sternguard for additional scoring troops. Pedro's aura isn't too bad when paired with assault terminators as well, but you run into issues with Elite slots in this kind of army.

There's probably several more builds I'm forgetting, but these are the main ones I can remember off-hand.

What units are actually 'good' and which ones should be bought first?

2 Tactical squads in rhinos with heavy weapons and special weapons is usually the starting point. They aren't great, but aren't terrible. Don't go crazy and spend points on Powerfists/melta-bombs and other toys, try to keep em cheap.

Librarian is the best HQ and should be used every time unless you are playing a special character list or "Rodeo"

AC/LC predators are solid anti-tank, but are fairly static and don't do too well against AV14, you will need melta-fire for that.
AC/HB Predators (dakka preds) are decent anti-infantry and cheap AV13. I personally don't like em, but they are widely used.
HF/MM Land Speeders are good units for getting in close and blowing up tanks or flaming some infantry
Typhoon Speeders are good for standing off and lobbing missiles into the enemy, but are kinda pricy.
Attack bikes w/Multi-meltas are good for nuking vehicles and late gaming contesting objectives.
Vindicators aren't too bad if you have enough armor saturation and don't expect much out of them. 3 outa 4 games they might get immobilized or weapon destroyed before doing much damage, but that 1 game they annihilate a 400 point nob squad or terminator squad or a monolith or something and you will be sold on them. Last game my BA vindicator kill a GK Brother-Captain, 5 purgators and a techmarine in 1 shot, paid for itself like 3 times over with 1 shot.
Sternguard are a solid shooting unit, and a decent source of a razorback for your army. They can be used as a devastator-esque squad with 2 lascannons or a forward shooty unit with full combi-weapons.
Assault Terminators (TH/SS) in a LRC or LRR are a solid assault/Rock unit. TH/SS terminators are EXCELLENT for their points, and the LRC or LRR can do a lot of damage to infantry after the terminators are delivered.
Dreadnoughts are okay. Riflemen (twin autocannons) are decent for blowing light vehicles. The standard MM dread in a drop pod is decent for drop-podding forward and taking a melta-pot-shot or 2. Using an Ironclad in the middle of your firebase can add solid counter-charge support to your list.

Are there must-have weapons or wargear?

Generally speaking, less is more. Don't go overboard making a 200 point Chapter Master when the special characters are always better for example.

I'd also like to add that I'm not his most common enemy, so tailoring his list against orks/battlewagon bash wouldn't help him much.

Battlewagon bash orks are an extremely difficult army to beat, especially as vanilla. They have tough vehicles with moving cover (cursed KFF!) and even if you dismount the orks, there's still dozens of boyz to deal with. Winning comes down to how fast you can stun/immobilize/destroy the wagons really.

I think the first thing we need to know is, What is his army list, Then we can find out what to do. (take stern guard, they fit in with the theme and are fun to use)

The core of any marine army is a triad of firepower, close combat and mobility. You can meet two out of the three easily but it is a fine mix that will do the dirty work. All marines have the T4 and 3+ AC and cheap transports so survivability is a given. The issue comes in with cost.

Generally, I have found a sweet spot with building for firepower with landspeeders providing the mobility and having one counterattack unit available. However, I have seen all-out assault armies win the day. So this is a matter of choice.

Firepower: Generally this is something I provide with razorbacks and predators with a backing of speeders.
5 las/plas razorbacks with 2 or 3 predators and 6 speeders.
A variation would be to go to rhinos planning on making use of your firepoint for 2 to fire from this is more costly but instead of 30 marines you are probably fielding 50 so it is more resilient. For a counter attack unit, it is usually my one HQ with Cmd squad, sternguard, vanguard vets or perhaps an assault squad. Sure termies fit the bill but they are more expensive and require a landraider to mount up in making it prohibitively expensive.

I agree that if you are taking one HQ the librarian is the choice but taking a captain to unlock a command squad or even a chapter master to unleash honor guard is a possibility. Chaplains used to be the default choice but I would reserve them now for an assault build army.

Landspeeders - three choices to me - typhoons - stand off firepower, HF/MM suicide killers, HB or HB/HB cheap fast and usually ignored until it is too late.

Predators - AC/LC this is if you think you really need the AT or AC/HB w Stormbolter cheap 10 shots every turn. They are of limited value against a meched up army but form the core of your anti-hoard firepower. You have to judge where you are getting your anti-tank firepower from and if you are comfortable with whatever else you have.

Thanks a lot carnage and addict, that was exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
(Not discouraging any further posters)

Reisen-tanith wrote:I think the first thing we need to know is, What is his army list, Then we can find out what to do. (take stern guard, they fit in with the theme and are fun to use)

As far as I know:
A complete AOBR box, including the dread, some tac marines, terminators with power fists and the chapter master.
Pedro Cantor
Librarian
10 stern guard
1 Drop Pod
1 Vindicator
5 Devastators with heavy bolters
2 Rhinos
1 Razorback with Tl-lascannon(might be las/plas, don't really remember)

Sadly, vanilla devastators are pretty poor. Heavy bolters make them REALLY poor. A dakka predator does heavy bolters better.

Vanilla marines can't spend a lot on HQ choices either because they generally don't add a lot to the army for their points. Rarely will you see anyone use more then 1.

Razorbacks are also...unimpressive for vanilla marines. If you want to use razor's to their fullest you need to use the BA codex.

For a counter attack unit, it is usually my one HQ with Cmd squad, sternguard, vanguard vets or perhaps an assault squad. Sure termies fit the bill but they are more expensive and require a landraider to mount up in making it prohibitively expensive.

I agree that if you are taking one HQ the librarian is the choice but taking a captain to unlock a command squad or even a chapter master to unleash honor guard is a possibility. Chaplains used to be the default choice but I would reserve them now for an assault build army.

I cannot agree with this. Never EVER take a captain/chapter master unless it's to unlock bikes as troops (with the captain). The only reasonable way to get the HG/command squad is with a special character really, and even then you are almost always better off using Assault terminators over the command squad or HG.

I've played a 1500 point list using Lysander as one of my counter attack elements and using his unlock to get a command squad with 4 plasma-guns in a Las/plas razorback for MC/MeQ + FnP busters, but it's like a 250 point squad and a 200 point character....it's not cheap.

I also strongly discourage Vanguard Vets for most vanilla space marine lists. They are an entertaining choice with jetpacks, but are too inconsistent in making combat on the DS outside of BA armies. Without jetpacks, either in a rhino, or in a LR as I've seen some people do, they just don't have the staying power, strength or quantity of attacks to get stuff killed for their points. Normal assault marines are cheaper, and can get a discounted transport, and point for point are more survivable and probably close to the same damage output per point, plus can take 2 flamers to really thin out those horde units. If you start adding storm shields and power weapons to the vanguards, you might as well be using HG or Assault terminators at that point as it would be less points.

I strongly disagree that razorbacks are a poor choice for vanilla marines.

Quite the contrary, the 165 point unit of 5x marines with bolters and a lasplas or assault cannon razorback offers some high quality shooting with scoring capability at a relatively low price.

I have used the following 1500 point list to much success on the battlefield (including local tournaments' best general)

librarian nullzone/avenger
assult terminators (4xth/ss, 1x LC) in LRC w/mm and EA
2x assault cannon razorbacks with 5x bolter marines inside
1x rhino with flamer/ML 10x marine squad inside
2x HF/MM speeder
1x Typhoon speeder
1x ac/las predator

This list uses some of the best things in the vanilla codex : cheap assault terminators with nullzone combined with highly effective firepower.
One of my main opponents uses battlewagon orks and I seldom lose. In fact, regardless of the opponent this list almost never loses. It has answers to anything without presenting much weakness.

I'd actually suggest staying away from the special ICs in the codex, as the nullzone librarian combined with cheap assault terminators is one of the best units in the game. Using vulken requires too much tailoring towards short ranged firepower to be worth it, and doesn't help against targets the assault terminators will have problems with.

Keep your HQ cheap, and focus on support units. Keep your scoring units cheap by leaving them with a transport and no other upgrades.

I didn't say Razors were bad, just unimpressive when compared to Wolves and BA. Their 5 man squads can still get special weapons, and BA Razors are fast and cheaper with assault squads.

Check out my list compared to yours;

100 Librarian; Null Zone, Avenger
450 5 Assault Terminators, LRR, w/MM
420 2x10 Tactical Squads, missiles/melta, rhinos
150 3 Attack bikes, w/MM
260? 2x AC/LC Pred, HK missile
120? Vindicator

Our armies are...very similar. Basically I get a vindicator instead of 2 Ass-can razors, and a second predator instead of the Typhoon. I'd use Land Speeders over the second predator if I had the models, but I sadly do not.

I've been playing around with army lists recently that do not use the LR and Terminators, as I have found them to be virtually worthless against my standard opponents. The LR in particular has never failed to die to the first weapon fired at it virtually every single game, and screwing up a third of my list with the first shot is really hampering my desire to continue running it.

A direct comparason of troop units to Wolves and BA will come up short as they have superior troops. That does not change that the Razorback is still a strong choice in all 3 dexes.

Your list does not seem as strong for several reasons:
-Lower vehicle saturation.
-Less mobile.
-LRR is inferior in this setup to LRC. The LRR is only better when your entire army is equipped to rush into CC. Instead, you have an army that plays for board control. With such a setup, you can put more pressure with the hurricane bolters firing every turn over the flamestorm cannons.
-The bikes are not as flexible as the speeders.
-A single Vindicator is slow and unreliable.

edit: Your list would work better with 3x vindicator and 2x typhoon speeders in place of the attack bikes.

edit 2: Although, I'd still prefer my list

On top of what everyone is saying in this thread read the tactica: space marines in the articles section. It's where I started and it did me tons of good.

Is it any good? I know the ork one is hardly worth reading...

What I gather from here, assault terminators in a LR are pretty much the first step for him to go, followed by a second unit of sternguard.

Getting a LR and assault terminators is always a good plan for vanilla marines, its probably one of the strongest units in the game.

That being said, what point value do you guys run? I'll mock up a list based on pedro (and the models he has) for him to muse over.

edit: Based on what he has, I'd try something like

HQ Kantor 175
Elites Sternguard x6 3x Combimelta, powerfist 190
Transport Rhino 35
Elites Sternguard x6 3x Combimelta, powerfist 190
Transport Rhino 35
Elites Sternguard x6 3x Combimelta 165
Transport Rhino 35
Troops Tactical x5 90
Transport Razorback las/tl plas 75
Troops Tactical x5 90
Transport Razorback las/tl plas 75
Heavy Vindicator 115
Heavy Vindicator 115
Heavy Vindicator 115
1500

Pedro is good when paired with Assault terminators(and Ironclad dreds) with the +1A bubble.



Devestators suck.

a better way to get firepower is with Landspeeder Typhoons. 2 Krak or Frag missiles and 1 heavy bolter will out shoot alot of things, and its fast. 2 or 3 of these things can decimate a boy mob quite nicely.

another good thing for fire power is a Vindicator or 3. "Str10 pie makes orks cry 3 on their head, makes em dead "



the best heavy weapon for Tac squads is the Missile launcher. the frag blast is good for infantry and the Krak is good for tanks.


if he takes Shooty terminators, then he wants Clyclone Missile launchers. 2 Frag or Krak missiles and you can still fire the stormbolter.

Why do devastators suck? Sure, they don't have the split fire power ability that long fangs have, nor the cheapness of BA devs, but the cost difference isn't enough to just not take them at all. 150 pts gets you 4 MLs which have a signum. Long fangs get 1 more body and ML for 10 pts less, sure, and BA get the same thing for 130, but it is still worth taking them.

Compare the typhoon vs the dev squad (which isn't in the same FOC slot, so it isn't a either or decision, you can have both). Typhoon is 90 pts for 2 ml shots (and who really cares about the HB, they suck most of the time, and isn't the reason you take them), a dev squad is 150 with 4 ML shots. The dev squad can't be killed with a single lucky shot, but is more vulnerable vs small arms (which shouldn't be a huge problem at the range they fight at). A LS can be taken out by a single lucky shot, but is resistant to small arms (which doesn't matter at the range they should be fighting at).

So the Dev squad is actually more efficient by about 30 pts for equal fire power. But it doesn't really matter, in a list that would want to spam MLs, you take both.

As for vindis, they look really good on paper, but when you actually play with them against all comers you really start to see what the problem with them is. Its the fact that they have vulnerable side armor and they tend to play the zero or hero game, where they do amazing one game with a hit that wipes a 200+ unit off the board, or the they are lucky to kill even a single model. A single gun and short range and fire arc makes them useless on a 3, and nerfed on a 4. So 2/3 of the pen results make the platform effectively dead, or partially neutralized.

IMHO, the real choices for SM heavy support is between dev squads, and predators (dakka or AC/LC, list dependent).

their weapons upgrades are too freakin expensive.


anything they can do, other units can do cheaper and more efficiently.


if the missile launchers were free like on Tac squads, then they would be good.



they also compete with Landraiders, Vindicators, and Predators for HS slots.

Grey Templar wrote:their weapons upgrades are too freakin expensive.


anything they can do, other units can do cheaper and more efficiently.


if the missile launchers were free like on Tac squads, then they would be good.



they also compete with Landraiders, Vindicators, and Predators for HS slots.

Yet how often do people actually take land raiders as non dedicated transports? The things you could want them for aren't as good as just taking assault termies, which get them as transports. I already said why vindis aren't all that good, though preds are rather good choices too (I usually run dakka preds, but some lists want the devs more).

Weapon options too expensive? 15 pts for a heavy weapon sounds like a bunch, and for the whole squad its 60 pts added to their cost to give them all MLs. But I already pointed out that the advantage wolves and BA get from cheaper launchers isn't enough to invalidate taking them in vanilla. Nor are the other options for MLs in C:SM more efficient. Tac squads? 170 for a single ML and flamer. Terminators, 230 for one cyclone ML (2 shots). Typhoon speeder, 90 pts for a single launcher (2 shots). Stern guard, 135 for 2 launchers. Dreads, min price for a launcher is 115. Scouts, min price is 85 for a single shot (at BS 3).

Devastators are the most efficient ML platform C:SM have, other units may get launcher for "free" but look at the hidden costs of these launchers. You have to buy a full squad of useless bullet catchers for a single free ML (well, the second half at least, at 16 pts per model). To get the cheap sternguard MLs, you have to buy 5 guys at 25 pts per to get the honor of buying two 5 pt Mls. The vehicle lauchers are either expensive (speeder) or come on an already expensive platform (dread). The devs, sure they pay more for their launchers than other units, but that is more than made up for not having to buy wound markers, expensive base costs, and by the fact that nearly every man in a 5 man squad has the weapon you actually care about (and the one that doesn't can make somebody hit on 2s).

If the MLs were "free like on tac squads" they would be overpowered (90 pts for 4 Mls.... yeah, what other choices for heavy?), or have a higher base cost that would make them cost at least as much as sternguard do.

Are the regular SM devs a little bit over priced? Maybe, but they aren't too much over, and they are still a solid choice depending on requirements.

Most of the time devs out outclassed by the predator. 120 points for 2 lascannon shots and 2 autocannon shots vs 150 points for 4 ML shots. I'm sure there are lists out there that prefer the devs, but 99% of cases the ac/las predator is the better option.

that heavy bolter is a big deal against infantry, considering its free.

its true that a landspeeder can be knocked out by a single lucky shot, but at long ranges the only weapons that can take it out are dedicated anti-tank. which will likely be shooting your other vehicles 1st.



the landspeeder can also move 12" and fire its weapons to full effect.

devestator squads are pretty much immobile firebases. Landspeeders can zip around, getting side shots and hitting enemies that are hiding.



5 Devestators with 4 missile launchers. 130 points

Typhoon. 90 points


the devestators have 4 krak or frag.

Typhoon has 2 krak or frag and 3 HB shots.


each wound the devs take will reduce their firepower(who kills the BS5 signum 1st?)

the Landspeeder only has a 50% chance of permantly being taken out on a pen. the other 50% will mearly stop it momentarly(immobilized isn't a huge deal with its long ranged weapons)

the landspeeder can still get cover fairly easily(especially in a squadron)




Fast Attack slots, in the vanilla codex anyway, only have the Landspeeder as a viable choice(bikes, really only good in a bike list)

the HS slots are very competitive,



there is a reason that competitive Space Marine lists almost never have devestators.

3 Vindicators is where its at(all or none)

or 3 cheap Dakka Preds


I would actually sooner take 3 Thunderfire cannons before 3 Dev squads(building a list around it of course)

I wouldn't say 99 percent of the time, and comparing armored units (prone to being shaken/stunned, or lucky 1 shot killed) to infantry (diminishing fire power as damage happens, but can't be suppressed in the same manner) is rather difficult. I personally use preds (dakka and auto las) in about 70 percent of my games, and devs in the remaining 30.

The type of list that would want devs? Larger point games where you would like to take even more razorbacks (devs can take them, while preds obv can't) without increasing your tac squad count (tac squads are rather crappy firepower, and you only need so many in even large point battles). They are also solid in lists that aren't fully mechanized (hybrid, partial pod drop army, or all foot). In large point games it gives you more firepower per FOC slot, as opposed to lower point games when you aren't worried about using up FOC slots as much as you are worried about points.

I wil agree that Devs are best in larger point games where you arn't worried about points.


smaller games, the cost savings of the Typhoon wins for me.


I also think that Preds are sub par too, but thats a different story.




that said, you can have Devs and Typhoons in the same list.

Jidmah wrote:Is it any good? I know the ork one is hardly worth reading...

What I gather from here, assault terminators in a LR are pretty much the first step for him to go, followed by a second unit of sternguard.

The Tactica on SMs are very good here IMO.

The only problem I see with assault terminators is they need a LR transport that can mean your assault unit is going to run about 500 points.

I would argue that a command squad or sterngard squad in a razorback is almost as effective and when you can field two of them for the same cost, it is a no brainer. 2 x Las/plas razorbacks with two sternguard squads is certainly not as effective as assault termies in CC but they are far and away superior in firepower.
BTW, look at sternguard with 2 heavy weapons instead of a devastator squad. In most cases it is much cheaper, plus the power of your sternguard in HTH is much better. A sternguard with 2 heavy flamers and an HQ choice is going to provide you more than enough HTH prowess except against truly dedicated CC units like assault termies and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW if cost is the object, devastators are a fine choice, but the others are right, devs due to lack of mobility and cost are not as effective as dakka preds or LAS/AC preds or vindicators for hoard control.

Orks are actually a tough matchup for Space Marines. I recommend the following units/tactics which apply outside of SM vs. Ork matchups...

Land Speeders, either Typhoons or MM+HF Land Speeders are great in all-comers lists.

Tank shock + flamers. Disembark the tactical squad from the rhino close to a mob of Boyz then tank shock the mob, being sure to avoid Rokkits and Power Klaws. You want to tank shock them so the models have to displace into a nice little flame template right in front of your flamer. Flame them and bolt pistol them, then since you disembarked before the Rhino moved, go ahead and assault to deny them Furious Charge.



You need to be creative about how you deal with 20-30 Boyz because they'll wipe a Tactical Squad like a dingleberry if you foul it up. Most Marine stuff is geared toward killing transports and MEQs, not Hordes unfortunately. MM/HF Land Speeders coupled with tank shocking Boyz into flamer templates works well. Kan wall is a tough matchup at lower points values, in which case Predator Destructors are a good choice.


A list incorporating 2-3 Tactical squads in Rhinos, a number of MM+HF speeders, some Predator Destructors, and a Librarian or two, will do well against most armies.

I'm using a battlewagon list, not a kan wall, and the other ork players I know of don't really field a competitive list at all, so he should be save from hordes.

What powers does a librarian usually use?

Something people haven't said yet. This is specially versus orks, A dreadnough with flamer instead of the storm bolter and a heavy flamer in a drop pod will do massive damage to any horde type army.

As long as he is playing versus a lot of small units, that dread will be very good. PLus it will make the player hesitate to go foward since doing so would open his back to drops.

My friend used that aggainst me and did 20 wounds aggainst my 30 guy mob.

Librarians generally have Null Zone, but that is almost useless against orks.


Vortex of Doom and Avenger would be good against orks.

make sure you put him in Terminator armor so he can move and fire Vortex, and assault afterwards.




for Landspeeders,

Typhoons are better against orks then HF/MM speeders simply because the orks will never catch the Typhoon.

the HF/MM has to get in real close and leave itself open to assault. sure they will likely need 6s to hit, but, with upwards of 40 attacks coming at you, some will get through and glance you and then there is the PK. a glanced speeder in CC is a dead speeder.

the Typhoon can deliver its frags and HB from a distance and keep on the move.





a full 10 man Tactical squad can hold their own against a mob of orks if they get the charge and get a good round of pistol and flamer fire in first.

the flamer is even more effective then normal if you tank shock them into a nice formation first like was said above.

As far as your question about Pedro kantor being useable. Yes he is. The thing I would look at doing is maximizing Sternguard as this means they are scoring troops. I am not necessarily saying take 30 of them but I would look to maximizing them as far as FOC slots. Say 15 with 3 razorbacks. If you want to go HTH a bit more, 9 led by Kantor with some CC fluff and special weapons for a counterattack unit would do nicely.

scoring sternguard is nice, but i would be loath to not take any Assault Terminators for him to buff.


a 12" +1A bubble, while kinda scary on normal marines is downright obscene on Assault terminators. LC terminators with 5 Attacks on the charge TH/SS guys with 4 on the charge

Grey Templar wrote:scoring sternguard is nice, but i would be loath to not take any Assault Terminators for him to buff.


a 12" +1A bubble, while kinda scary on normal marines is downright obscene on Assault terminators. LC terminators with 5 Attacks on the charge TH/SS guys with 4 on the charge

Not going to argue against assault termies other than the cost - 200 for 5 Termies + 250 for the LR of your choice. 5 Sternguard + Razorback
@ 200. You can do the assault termies but realize you are way upping your CC potential for way lowering your firepower potential. It is a legitimate choice but if your goal is firepower, I would think long and hard before I fielded the assault termies.

The landraider isn't just a transport.


I actually use, ghasp , a regular ol landraider with lascannons.


the 5 Terminators and Pedro just chill out inside while the Landraider and the rest of the army just blast away. the Terminators can then form a counter assault force to protect the gunline, or they can be an offensive powerhouse.


Landraiders arn't just transports. they are also gunboats and you need to factor that in.


its really more like paying 100 points for a transport and then another 150 points for 2 TL-lascannons and a TL-heavy bolter on a platform with PotMS.