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Serder wrote:Something people haven't said yet. This is specially versus orks, A dreadnough with flamer instead of the storm bolter and a heavy flamer in a drop pod will do massive damage to any horde type army.

As long as he is playing versus a lot of small units, that dread will be very good. PLus it will make the player hesitate to go foward since doing so would open his back to drops.

My friend used that aggainst me and did 20 wounds aggainst my 30 guy mob.

This is actually a pretty damn good idea IMHO; armies such as Orks and Nids (particularly when using the Battlewagon-rush) are loathe to split their forces and a Dreadnought with MM/HF can reliably land behind the enemy, capable of reducing the battlewagons or boys themselves to ashes. I'd recommend 2 dreads like this with a 3rd drop-pod provided by something else, possibly a devastator squad or tactical squad. But 2 dreads in this manner can work very well full stop, but particularly well against Orks IMHO.

Grey Templar wrote:The landraider isn't just a transport.


I actually use, ghasp , a regular ol landraider with lascannons.


the 5 Terminators and Pedro just chill out inside while the Landraider and the rest of the army just blast away. the Terminators can then form a counter assault force to protect the gunline, or they can be an offensive powerhouse.


Landraiders arn't just transports. they are also gunboats and you need to factor that in.


its really more like paying 100 points for a transport and then another 150 points for 2 TL-lascannons and a TL-heavy bolter on a platform with PotMS.

As a DE player, I like that thought when my 20+ dark lances see a 500 pt pinata that just screams victory for my side knowing that unassailable 14 AV is now 12 but still is costing my opponent 250 pts to field.

While I agree that a LR is a formidable gunboat it is a vulnerability because invariably it turns into an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket situation.

perhaps, but i have plenty of Auto-cannon fire to drop your cardboard transports before you get to me.


and if you toss all your fire at the landraider then it leaves everything else free to shoot.

Grey Templar wrote:perhaps, but i have plenty of Auto-cannon fire to drop your cardboard transports before you get to me.


and if you toss all your fire at the landraider then it leaves everything else free to shoot.

The point is it is 500 pts in a very vulnerable spot. Frankly 60pt transports should go up in smoke (as 75pt razorbacks should) the problem is
250 pt transport contain 200 pts of assault marines has an early target on its back. The question is better for the points investment, 3 razorbacks or 4 DE raiders or 1 landraider.

Assuming we are playing 1850, that is about 30% of your points all tied up in one nice juicy target with a big payoff to killing it early. (stranding assault termies behind the opponent's start line)

And your firepower is 2 TL lascannons, and 1 TL HB with perhaps a Multi-melta. Compare that 10 Sternguards with 4 heavy weapons (your choice) and 2 razorbacks. Yes those assault marines will tear me a new one when they get into assault range but that is probably turn 3 (assuming you are going to fire that LR). So you need to ask yourself if 6 heavy weapons targetable at four targets will do more damage in 3 turns of firing versus 2 to 3 heavy weapons targetable at two targets for 3 turns plus that turn 3 assault is going to do more damage.

DAaddict wrote:
and if you toss all your fire at the landraider then it leaves everything else free to shoot.

The point is it is 500 pts in a very vulnerable spot. Frankly 60pt transports should go up in smoke (as 75pt razorbacks should) the problem is
250 pt transport contain 200 pts of assault marines has an early target on its back. The question is better for the points investment, 3 razorbacks or 4 DE raiders or 1 landraider.

Assuming we are playing 1850, that is about 30% of your points all tied up in one nice juicy target with a big payoff to killing it early. (stranding assault termies behind the opponent's start line)

And your firepower is 2 TL lascannons, and 1 TL HB with perhaps a Multi-melta. Compare that 10 Sternguards with 4 heavy weapons (your choice) and 2 razorbacks. Yes those assault marines will tear me a new one when they get into assault range but that is probably turn 3 (assuming you are going to fire that LR). So you need to ask yourself if 6 heavy weapons targetable at four targets will do more damage in 3 turns of firing versus 2 to 3 heavy weapons targetable at two targets for 3 turns plus that turn 3 assault is going to do more damage.

This assuming the person fielding the landraider just has no concern for cover or that the board is completely devoid of it.

I've had plenty of luck with getting my LR in range and I play against Tau and Imperial Guard on a regular basis.

Against dark eldar, it is normally better to leave the LR in reserve while your light vehicles have at the paper airplanes. Having the LR in reserves means you can sit on your back edge for the first turn or two with your LR coming in to support the side the airplanes are focusing on.

Never forget that while the dark eldar can play the reserve game, so can you.

The problem with Land Raiders is that they are very "All or nothing". In a 1500 point list a LR + termies + HQ is pushing 550-600 points, that's over a third of your army.

My experience with LR/Termies is extremely hit or miss. Some games I've seen the LR survive a pounding and deliver the termies into the heart of the enemy, gutting them. In other games I've seen my LR die to the first las-cannon shot and then my termies get to walk into a barrage of missiles and plasma fire for 3+ turns.

My opinion is that it's too big of a risk. 250 points from one lucky melta, lance or lascannon is too much to stomach and stranding another 200-350 points of HQ and termies makes it mega super terribad when it does happen. Top end warhammer is about mitigating risk and this is just too risky.

In 2000 point games and up, you can afford the gamble, but in 1750 and down I don't risk it anymore.

Carnage43 wrote:The problem with Land Raiders is that they are very "All or nothing". In a 1500 point list a LR + termies + HQ is pushing 550-600 points, that's over a third of your army.

My experience with LR/Termies is extremely hit or miss. Some games I've seen the LR survive a pounding and deliver the termies into the heart of the enemy, gutting them. In other games I've seen my LR die to the first las-cannon shot and then my termies get to walk into a barrage of missiles and plasma fire for 3+ turns.

My opinion is that it's too big of a risk. 250 points from one lucky melta, lance or lascannon is too much to stomach and stranding another 200-350 points of HQ and termies makes it mega super terribad when it does happen. Top end warhammer is about mitigating risk and this is just too risky.

In 2000 point games and up, you can afford the gamble, but in 1750 and down I don't risk it anymore.

Thanks and amen! All the words tearing back and forth. That is the only point I am trying to make.
I am not comfortable with 1/3 of my points being at risk to one lucky shot.

Carnage43 wrote:The problem with Land Raiders is that they are very "All or nothing". In a 1500 point list a LR + termies + HQ is pushing 550-600 points, that's over a third of your army.

My experience with LR/Termies is extremely hit or miss. Some games I've seen the LR survive a pounding and deliver the termies into the heart of the enemy, gutting them. In other games I've seen my LR die to the first las-cannon shot and then my termies get to walk into a barrage of missiles and plasma fire for 3+ turns.

My opinion is that it's too big of a risk. 250 points from one lucky melta, lance or lascannon is too much to stomach and stranding another 200-350 points of HQ and termies makes it mega super terribad when it does happen. Top end warhammer is about mitigating risk and this is just too risky.

In 2000 point games and up, you can afford the gamble, but in 1750 and down I don't risk it anymore.

Your HQ is mandatory. Therefore regardless of route, you MUST take 100 of those 550-600 points. One of the best uses of the mandatory 100 points is a nullzone librarian. The best unit to compliment the librarian is TH terminators. The best compliment to the terminator unit is a LR to transport them. Really you are investing an extra 450 points into the HQ to make it a veritable deathstar unit.

Its no accident that so many people use this combo. Like anything else, you are liable to have your strategy refuted by lucky dice. But lets not forget how small a chance a lascannon really has of actually doing immob, wrecked or destroyed to AV14. It's pretty low (~8% if my memory serves). Melta can't really hit turn 1 normally, so it you are dealing with melta the terminators are probably in place. Darklances and Railguns are two weapons that are really the worry, which you can try various tactics to marginalize - and these are going to be your toughest challenge likely.

The libby+terminators+LR is not an IWIN button, but it is effective. Spamming light vehicles to support it and help suppress targets which are threatening is what makes this combo work really well. I personally have had much success with it @ 1500 points. 1/3 of your army will never be taken out by 1 lucky shot. Losing the LR early is a hard blow, but not unrecoverable. If you personally don't like the risk associated with the unit, that is to each their own. However, don't underestimate the power it has - many people have found success with it.

Dracos wrote:Your HQ is mandatory. Therefore regardless of route, you MUST take 100 of those 550-600 points. One of the best uses of the mandatory 100 points is a nullzone librarian. The best unit to compliment the librarian is TH terminators. The best compliment to the terminator unit is a LR to transport them. Really you are investing an extra 450 points into the HQ to make it a veritable deathstar unit.

Its no accident that so many people use this combo. Like anything else, you are liable to have your strategy refuted by lucky dice. But lets not forget how small a chance a lascannon really has of actually doing immob, wrecked or destroyed to AV14. It's pretty low (~8% if my memory serves). Melta can't really hit turn 1 normally, so it you are dealing with melta the terminators are probably in place. Darklances and Railguns are two weapons that are really the worry, which you can try various tactics to marginalize - and these are going to be your toughest challenge likely.

The libby+terminators+LR is not an IWIN button, but it is effective. Spamming light vehicles to support it and help suppress targets which are threatening is what makes this combo work really well. I personally have had much success with it @ 1500 points. 1/3 of your army will never be taken out by 1 lucky shot. Losing the LR early is a hard blow, but not unrecoverable. If you personally don't like the risk associated with the unit, that is to each their own. However, don't underestimate the power it has - many people have found success with it.

I second that.

My basic marine army is built around 2 AoBR box sets, and I think its a fantastic army.

1500 points
Convert 1 captain to Pedro Kantor
Convert 1 captain to Librarian (null zone+prefrence)
10 Termies (find 2 missile launchers for cyclones, convert 1 termie sarge's powerweapon to a chainfist)
2 Dreads (I blinged them a bit to look like venerables with EA, but they are still MM/SB dreads)
2 Tac squads (convert the sarge's to have Pfists)

Your only vehicles are ven dreads, which are hard to kill. Basicly the list trys to invalidate lots of the metagame's antivehicle shooting, and the tac squads combat squad for objectives or stay whole in KP games, where you only have 7 KP. Pedro buffs all the units very very nicely, and s10 ap1 barrage is also great. Stubborn helps take care of all the LD shennanigans that plague foot lists.

Expanding the list to 1750, I add two lasplas razorbacks for the tacs and 2 MMAB. Makes the list weaker in KP games but those 4 units can really hurt vees. For 1850 I add 5 scouts with snipers and a missile--one of the best troop squads in the game at 85 points.

Versus Orks, the key is to tarpit with your ven dreads, which a boyz unit has almost no chance at killing, and then countercharging with tac squads and termies boosted by Pedro, multiassaulting as much as possible.

If you are not trying to make an AoBR vanilla marine army (where you want to use those 2 dreads and 10 termies) then Vulkan + Libby + LRR +THSS=awesome, as others have said. Orks have a hard time dealing with it from far away, and up close the flamestorm cannons, vulkan+libby flamers, and THSS assault kill many an ork.

As an aside, switch armies with your friend a few times. If he is new to the game, getting a perception of the other side will be invaluable in determining what the orks weakness and SM strenghts are.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Dracos wrote:Your HQ is mandatory. Therefore regardless of route, you MUST take 100 of those 550-600 points. One of the best uses of the mandatory 100 points is a nullzone librarian. The best unit to compliment the librarian is TH terminators. The best compliment to the terminator unit is a LR to transport them. Really you are investing an extra 450 points into the HQ to make it a veritable deathstar unit.

Its no accident that so many people use this combo. Like anything else, you are liable to have your strategy refuted by lucky dice. But lets not forget how small a chance a lascannon really has of actually doing immob, wrecked or destroyed to AV14. It's pretty low (~8% if my memory serves). Melta can't really hit turn 1 normally, so it you are dealing with melta the terminators are probably in place. Darklances and Railguns are two weapons that are really the worry, which you can try various tactics to marginalize - and these are going to be your toughest challenge likely.

The libby+terminators+LR is not an IWIN button, but it is effective. Spamming light vehicles to support it and help suppress targets which are threatening is what makes this combo work really well. I personally have had much success with it @ 1500 points. 1/3 of your army will never be taken out by 1 lucky shot. Losing the LR early is a hard blow, but not unrecoverable. If you personally don't like the risk associated with the unit, that is to each their own. However, don't underestimate the power it has - many people have found success with it.

I second that.

I second that second!

Thanks for all your advice, but some seem do be focusing too much on the "beat orks" part. He plays random people at our FLGS and two people from his hometown a lot more than he plays me, so tailoring against orks wont help him much.

He also does that drop pod dread thing already, but it's quite easy to counter using trukks, koptas or gretchin to block access to my bw's rear, as with any other deep strikers.

Before we get focused too much on Termies or no termies. The core choice is Pedro or no Pedro then do you take a librarian and finally firepower or assault.

Pedro is good but to get the benefit, you should maximize sternguard. His CC buff is good too but if you go all out with that you are going to take a major hit in the firepower zone.

The next issue is the librarian, null zone and a a psychic hood would be good for your army but it is indirect. This is purely a judgement call based on the opponents in your area and your comfort level in being open to psychic attack.

Finally assault versus firepower. I am assuming Pedro & the librarian, so that is 300 pts eaten up. It is not you have to decide between 5 assault termies and a LR variant or 10 sterngard with 4 HW and two razorbacks. The assault termies will provide you with an excellent assault unit, the 2 sternguard will provide you with excellent firepower.

Personnally, given a little budgetary leeway, I would purchase both and see which one fits your style more.
The advantage of the sternguard is 2 or 3 more scoring units and one of them - assuming pedro attached, is going to be an awesome HTH unit. Mind you not like the assault termies but it is going to be good enough to clean the clock of most opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assumed lists:
HQ Pedro
Librarian w Null Zone

E 5 Sternguard w 2 ML in Las\Plas Razorback
5 Sternguard w 2 Plas Cann in Las\Plas Razorback
5 Sternguard w 2 Hvy Flam & Sgt w PW in Las\Plas Razorback

T 5 w Combi-Melta Sgt in Las Plas Razorback
T 5 w Combi-Melta Sgt in Las Plas Razorback
T 5 w Combi-Melta Sgt in Las Plas Razorback

F 2 Landspeeder ( HB/HB or MM/HF)
F 2 Landspeeder (HB/HB or MM/HF)
F 2 Landspeeder (HB/HB or MM/HF)

H Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

Not figuring the exact cost but this should get you @ 1850 + or minus some stuff (perhaps the librarian) The squad of Sternguard with the hvy flamers becomes your Pedro escort unit and provides a great counter punch unit.


You could try the exact same list with assault termies-
Pull the 1st and 3rd Sternguard and replace with
LRC with 5 assault termies w Pedro and now I would spend the points and up the librarian to termie armor and a SS.

Less firepower and less controlling units but you now have a buff aggressive attack unit.

Daaddict suggested a nice list! But IIRC the OP said that his friend do not have LS or Dakka pred.. he could proxy them for the moment... but probably he wants to use the minis he has so I'll suggest to take DAaddict list as a base but dropping one Sternguard squad for a Dreddie in a drop pod. He could also transform the 2 sternguard squad in a single 10 men squad ( you can still combat squad them, and steal the vehicle of one of the tactical squads for the second combat quad, keeping the tactical as an objective keeper) to make space for a 5 man termy squad with heavy flamer (against orks it should be fine) or CML(much more TAC ). (apparently the OP's freind doesn't have Assault Termies )

Obviously these suggestions aren't meant to make the army more competitive, but to allow the OP to use the models he actually owns

maybe you should sell him your orks :-D

if he still cant win then he could trade them for a LOTR dvd boxset ...and take it from there :-p




going the terminator death-star route could bring him a lucky win or two and allow him to concentrate and perfect that all or nothing strategy.....lol mind you if it gets diced on his first outing plastic sky confetti could ensue



statistically speaking 1 in 100 newcomers leave the hobby early due to a long run of mildly bad dice combining with expected nooby errors = zero wins

like wise , 1 in 100 newcomers will be emptying the shelves of boxes due to a long run of mildy lucky dice ( just at the right time & place ) ... the dice luck leveling off just as there growing skills kick

its a funny ole game ....." oh dark lord of dice "

What I would recomment is play it at smaller point levels so you don't have so many units to keep track of - yours and your opponents. To me SM is very much about accurate and precise fire control. In otherwords, targeting the biggest threat with the appropriate firepower. As you get to an 1850 list, as you can see in my example you have 14 elements or in reality 22 elements that can each individually target and be targeted. Your opponent is likely going to have a similar number. This is going to make target selection more muddled than a newbie should be dealing with as you have 22 x 22 ways to screw up and not target the correct thing or more likely over commit to a target.

yeah, its definitly about proper application of force.


play smaller games, and play lots of them.


1k games can be played in about an hour, hour and a 1/2 if you devote a fair bit of time to rule discussion.

so, you have 3 hours. play 3 1k games with the same list.


if there is a rule question, stop and look it up. don't continue to play untill you know exactly how to do it.

Overall my view is as I play Vulcan vanilla salamanders that against orks especially I love templates so vindicators and also I am lucky with the scatter dice (all ways helps)(also can be used for taking out battlewagons as even scatter doesn't mater too much if the battlewagon is large) combined with some assault termies either TH/SS if Vulcan or LC if not. obviously commander is personal preference and mix in dreads or stern guard and obviously rhinos/other transport. Also maybe a Redeemer I know allot of people don't rate them but with Vulcan against hoard and ignoring all their saves who can look into its little puppy dog flame-storm cannons and tell it no?

just my 2 pence worth.

Salamandermarine

Just wanted to say, this is a great thread for people starting out with Vanilla Marines. My friend just bought AoBR for the marines and I've never really been able to determine what's cost effective in the incredibly dense tome that is the Vanilla Marine codex. This thread's helped immensely in planning out his army and what he needs to buy next.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed, this is truly an excellent advice thread!

Tactical Marines are the weakest component of the Space Marines army list, so I recommend taking as few of them as possible. Basically, you hold them in reserve, hide them, let them sit on back objectives, and sink your points in actual damage-dealing elements.

If you want C:SM to work, you're best off running Vulkan Marines. Otherwise, Codex: Blood Angels will give you EVERYTHING in the codex faster, cheaper, and better. That said, I would consider running this at 1,850 pts:

Vulkan

Librarian w/ Combimelta (Avenger and Null Zone)

5 TH/SS Terminators w/ LRC & Multimelta

5 TH/SS Terminators w/ LR

5 Tac Marines w/ Rhino

5 Tac Marines w/ Rhino

2 Land Speeders w/ Multimelta and Heavy Flamer

2 Land Speeders w/ Multimelta and Heavy Flamer

2 Attack Bikes w/ Multimeltas

I have some tactics on how to use Tactical squads to good advantage in my Gunline article.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/unit_choices_for_a_Space_marine_gunline

Why do assult termies need a transport whaen they can deepstrike?

Deep Striking in general is a bad idea for terminators.

1: its an expensive unit with a large foot print. they could easily mishap and at 200+ points its not an easy loss to suffer.

2: they can't assault out of it. that means a turn where your opponent can shoot them and move away.


a Landraider will ensure that they are able to catch something, providing it doesn't get popped.

Why do assult termies need a transport whaen they can deepstrike?

Vanilla assault termies have no Deathwing assault rule, nor can they take drop pods, nor can they shoot with anything when they arrive like SW/DA. In short, they are utterly, totally worthless on the turn 2+ when they arrive. They sit there, the enemy backs off from them, and your terminators get shot. This is assuming they don't mishap.

The only viable way I have found to deploy assault terminators with vanilla that doesn't involve a land raider involves Shrike infiltration and fleet of foot. And with him in play, the land raider just becomes a jaw droppingly good platform for AT delivery. (Mmm....21 to 26 inch move+disembark+run+assault threat range...)

Wow, another thread back from the dead.

But anyways, this advice has actually helped my pal, he is doing much better now