Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

If the Storm Banner is in effect and units are also protected by Pha's Protection, must an enemy cannon (for instance) roll two dice and score 4+ on each to satisfy both effects before firing, or would it just be one dice?

My gut says two checks must be made, but I want to be 100% certain - it's for tournament play.

Cheers.

I think this is impossible anyway, since skaven don't have access to lore of light unless they take the silly hat.

If it's a team tournament, though, this is a good question.

It is a team tournament mate, yeah. A friend and I are making a 'Shooting denial' list of sorts.

You satisfy both rules by rolling a single 4+

nosferatu1001 wrote:You satisfy both rules by rolling a single 4+

Are you certain on that? Can you cite anything?

I'm not being argumentative, I just couldn't find anything one way or the other.

both rules say you must roll a 4+ to shoot.



your opponent rolls a 5 on a D6.

consult Pha's protection, Did he roll a 4+ on a D6?

yes

consult Stormbanner, Did he roll a 4+ on a D6?

yes



he satisfies both on a single roll.



its still not bad idea to combine the 2. if your opponent stops one from getting through then the 2nd might get up.

Grey Templar wrote:both rules say you must roll a 4+ to shoot.



your opponent rolls a 5 on a D6.

consult Pha's protection, Did he roll a 4+ on a D6?

yes

consult Stormbanner, Did he roll a 4+ on a D6?

yes



he satisfies both on a single roll.



its still not bad idea to combine the 2. if your opponent stops one from getting through then the 2nd might get up.

Whilst your process does make sense, I'm not sure I'm convinced it's RAW. It's still two separate sources, it seems unusual to me to be able to bypass two effects with one roll, y'know? Can't find anything useful in the core rules regarding it.

checked with a few people and you would have to make 2 checks, you would have to check if you bypass the storm banner and then the protection spell since they are 2 different sources of interfereance. Sorry about the 40k reference

In a space wolf codex you have an item that ignores a psychic power on a 4+ and another one that ignores a psychic power targeting you on a 5+. it was FAQ'd that you would get to roll both time to try and deny the psychic power, so its safe to assume that since you have 2 different things going for you then your opponent will have to roll twice to get thru with shooting but to be safe always check with the tourny head since they always have the last call

I think the area is gray enough, that my advice becomes this:

The most important person to ask is going to be the tournament organizer of the team event you are attending. It doesn't matter how right or wrong we get it on here, if it will be ruled a different way at the event.

This isn't 40K and many of the rules and operations are completely different, so that's irrelevant.

I think it's a single die roll. It's an augment spell, you're protecting yourself. Think of it as adding armor. It's passive. Likewise with the banner, it's turned on. If it was a hex, if it immediately targetted an enemy and forced a check, it would be 2 rolls.

But one roll satisfies the requirement. All it says is you're required to roll a die before you shoot and get a 4+. So you pick up a die and roll it, get a 4,5,6, both item and spell are satisfied.

Good advice, Zeke. I would've liked to be able to ask the TO armed with some page references and plausible arguments, but I'll just have to make a charisma check instead

By RAW perspective you can have the enemy non BS shooting roll the 4+ test a maximum of two dice.
Upon firing – this is where the stormbanner and ieshard blizzard spell play in a single test can satisfy both (or indeed as many instances as there are in play).
Upon contact – pha's protection is (so far) the only one in this section the test is made as soon as a protected model is touched.

By the logic that a single roll can satisfy multyple tests at a time and that there is only two times in which the tests can be made, you can only ever force two 4+ tests.

Upon contact – pha's protection is (so far) the only one in this section the test is made as soon as a protected model is touched

Actually for Pha's to work, it requires the roll to be made before the shot is taken, not upon contact with the unit.

"Shooting attacks that do not use Ballistic Skill must roll 4+ on a D6 before firing, or the shot(s) is lost."

The Storm Banner is also taken before firing the shot, as is Iceshard Blizzard. The wording on all 3 is the same. The test must be taken before firing, or the shot is lost.

1 test, all 3 satisfied.

Lehnsherr wrote:

Upon contact – pha's protection is (so far) the only one in this section the test is made as soon as a protected model is touched

Actually for Pha's to work, it requires the roll to be made before the shot is taken, not upon contact with the unit.

"Shooting attacks that do not use Ballistic Skill must roll 4+ on a D6 before firing, or the shot(s) is lost."

That really only aplies to those who target units, AFAIK that is only the organ gun.

The rest follow the FAQ:
Q: If a unit is augmented by Pha’s Protection how does this
interact with Shooting attacks that do not specifically target a unit?
For example a cannon or stone thrower shot? (Reference)
A: Fire the shot as normal. If the template ends up over any
models in a unit that have been augmented by Pha’s Protection
roll a D6. On a 4+ the entire shot is discounted.

Thanks hover boy, that makes it very clear.
Since the storm banners makes you test to fire, you'd roll the D6.
Cannons and the like you'd roll for pha's only if the shot contacted the unit (after the 1st roll), which should require Another roll, since it is happening in a different sequence.

The best bet is always check with any TO.

-Matt

What happens if Asph arrow went against storm banner?

LunaHound wrote:What happens if Asph arrow went against storm banner?

Nothing.

Storm Banner puts a negative modifier on standard roll to hit shooting which Arrows of Asaph then completely ignores. The 4+ to shoot part of the banner (or the other two sources mentioned) is only trigged when a shooting attack is made that doesn't roll to hit as usual, like a cannon or stone thrower for instance.

That's the main idea behind the list, deny as much enemy shooting as possible whilst I (the TK player) use all of my shooting at will. My Skaven partner clogs the middle of the table with tar pits and generally makes a nuisance of himself.

However, make sure you both have wizards - you have only a 25% chance of still being Suspicious Allies by the start of turn 1, unless the tournament has changed those rules!

Yeah those rules are still in place, Nosferatu. They're really harsh, too. I dislike the fact that I can't dispel spells aimed at his units and vice versa.

Its more the dispel / cast pool split that really hurts - as long as you both have a L2 you at least get a shot at dispelling with a decent bonus, however if the skaven player doesnt take a wizard that really bones you in the magic phase...

How so?

I think from memory the Skaven list has a level 1 warp engineer, but I'm not 100% on that.

That really only aplies to those who target units, AFAIK that is only the organ gun

Good call Hover. I prolly should have read the FAQ. Makes more sense that way then the way they worded Pha's spell description.

Tantras wrote:How so?

I think from memory the Skaven list has a level 1 warp engineer, but I'm not 100% on that.

because you will automatically only have 1/2 the magic dice as, being suspicious allies, they must be divided equally.


so if he has no wizards then his army is sucking up 1/2 the power and dispel dice and isn't using any of them.

I've checked - he does have an engineer with a warp energy condenser. My Liche Priest will have a channeling staff and be stood next some some Arcane Ruins too. One of the tournament stipulations is that you bring your own piece of scenery and it may be one of the special pieces from the BRB if you wish. Hopefully we'll be able to channel enough to offset that disadvantage

how can you garuntee you will be anywhere near arcane ruins?

Last section of page 2.

It's an odd thing to have in a tournament, I guess... but who am I to argue?

G T - desperate allies must divide, HOWEVER Skaven + OK start suspicious, and before first turn must roll a dice each - only on a 4+ on both do they stay suspicious, hence the 25% chance of not being hated enemies.

Might be worth taking a level 2 engineer, points permitting

Read those placement rules - interesting. sticking a wizards tower in your deployment zone, in low points games, can be a huge bonus

Right,


it is still a potential problem.

It is, GT. You're right. But that's about as good as it gets as far as compensation is concerned. My Liche Priest will be parked next to that scenery piece channeling 4 dice on 5+ each per turn.

Nice to know that we should be able to shut down a huge chunk of enemy shooting with the above combo, though

i think you would have to roll 2 dice, to check as it not like its 2 spells doubling up its a spell and a item, and you would use both in that same turn if it was a spell, and item on a leader. so why would this be any different. people saying that one roll meets both criteria is just silly. there will be loads of time where 1 roll will meet a few criteria but we roll for each thing seperate.