Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Battlecannon it phil wrote:i think you would have to roll 2 dice, to check as it not like its 2 spells doubling up its a spell and a item, and you would use both in that same turn if it was a spell, and item on a leader. so why would this be any different. people saying that one roll meets both criteria is just silly. there will be loads of time where 1 roll will meet a few criteria but we roll for each thing seperate.

if the rolls required a different number you might have a point, but, as it is, one roll does indeed meet both criteria.



they both say to roll a 4+ to fire, and both of these spells tell you to resolve the roll at the same time.


therefore, you satisfy both rolls with 1 roll.

Are there other instances of two (or more) resolutions with a single roll?

no its not things happen at the same time , both items work unless the counter each other, they dont counter so they both work. why people are saying they dont is beyond me. you roll for each item, different numbers is irrelivant. this is something that will need errata untill then you should roll both seperatly

Please try rewording that into something a little more coherent....

So if you have two rules, that take effect at the same time, that both say "do X", you would do X twice?

No, you do X once, and that resolves both rules. Same in this case - except that most war machines dont have a target (needed for Pha) until after rolling scatter, etc, in whic hcase you could make an argument for two.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please try rewording that into something a little more coherent....

So if you have two rules, that take effect at the same time, that both say "do X", you would do X twice?

No, you do X once, and that resolves both rules. .

Any examples? I get what both sides are saying, I'd just like to see some examples.

-Matt

Casting the same spell on the same unit would do it. So two castings of Phas protection on a unit would give you a 4+ to hit twice.

Another example would be IG Astropaths - they only give you a +1 bonus to reserve rolls total even if you have 2 or more of them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Another example would be IG Astropaths - they only give you a +1 bonus to reserve rolls total even if you have 2 or more of them.

That was speciffically FAQ-ed. Before thet it was a bit crazy but legal to stack the bonus.

No, it really wasnt Same as Hive commander - one "+1" resolved both rules.

So far you've demonstrated GW consistently write ambiguos rules
I do agree with you, only the Pha's FAQ allows for two rolls.

if grom has regenerate , and an item that give him a wound back on a 4+ (like regenerate but with a different name, so not regenerate) he takes 2 wounds he gets a wound back at the end of combat on a 4+ but has to roll for each wound once, by the way people are talking if you rolled one 4+ on he would get 2 wounds back as 1 roll effects 2 things at the same time. the rules are never black and white so we must read them as such until time of errata. so if both say you must roll a 4+ to shoot you have to roll for each thing seperate, as it doesnt say that you dont roll once for both effects.

Battllecannon - no, that is not the same argument at all. Please read again!

Methinks someone dosen't know what regeneration actually does.

HoverBoy wrote:Methinks someone dosen't know what regeneration actually does.

So far the only references we've seen has been from 40K, which might be the confusion in how regen works.

-Matt

My gut says one d6, as the unit is affected by the same rule twice.

essentially any shooting unit within the ranges gets a 'needs a 4+ to shoot' so one roll should do it.

However, mny advice as someone has said is ask the tournament organiser

well you get 12 hits on a unit shooting and the need a 4+ to save. just roll once dice for all of them then , if we are saying that if there is needs to roll more than one dice and they need the same result just roll once and apply it to all.

Again Battlecannon -you are not comparing apples to apples with your examples.

hlaine.larkin wrote:My gut says one d6, as the unit is affected by the same rule twice.

essentially any shooting unit within the ranges gets a 'needs a 4+ to shoot' so one roll should do it.

However, mny advice as someone has said is ask the tournament organiser

My logic for two is that if you have a +1 strength (sword of might), and +1 strength (lore of beasts), you get +2 strength. Both effects take place.
If you normally hit on 4's, and your opponent has a -1 to be hit (glittering scales) and -1 to be hit (greyback pelt), you need 6's to hit; again both rules take place, not a single -1.
If you must roll a 4+, and must roll a 4+, I would play that as 2 rolls.

GW doesn't always use logic, and this isn't clear. Asking the TO is always best.

-Matt

but those modifiers are openended and are explicitly stated as stacking.


if you have 2 items which give you 4+ regen, you only get 1 regen save.


but if 2 items say you get +1 to this stat, they stack.

Grey Templar wrote:but those modifiers are openended and are explicitly stated as stacking.

if you have 2 items which give you 4+ regen, you only get 1 regen save.
but if 2 items say you get +1 to this stat, they stack.

Regen and ward saves are explicitly say you only get 1, so you can't roll a 4+ regen then a 6+ regen.
Neither the sword of might, nor the lore of beast spell says they stack with each other; likewise glittering scales and greyback doesn't mention stacking either.
On the other hand, the vampire counts armor that gives -2 to be shot specifies (in the FAQ) that it is in addition to other shooting modifiers.


Here's another argument for 2 rolls:
When effects occur at the same time, the player who's turn it is chooses the order.
Storm banner and Ice Shard blizzard both occur before the warmachine can fire.
Being your shooting phase, which do you choose to resolve 1st?
I can't find anything that would allow both effects to be resolved at the same time. If you cannot resolve both at the same time, they cannot be resolved by a single die roll.

Outside of this odd ball 4+ to shoot effect, does any other effect in the game produce this sort of problem?
I can't find one.

-Matt

It is an odd situation. I feel like, in the context of the game, these two things have the same mechanical result with different means, so two would make sense. But as the RaW stands...

I think Matt's above post, dealing with resolution order, makes a lot of sense. I can't think of anything similar...but maybe...say a model has some special ability or item, like a big sword that says "pass a Ld test or lose all remaining wounds blah blah blah for each hit". Now, this is stretching it quite a bit, but the GW guys are big fans of weird stuff in their games, so let's assume there's a piece of terrain that somehow grants this same ability to the character. We now have "pass a Ld test or die" twice. They're from two different sources, but both happen roughly at the same moment, and both could be satisfied with one roll (unlike saves versus wounds).
...I don't really know where to go from here. If my opponents went to all the trouble to give my war machines a 25% chance to fire for a turn or two, I'd just let 'em have it, but that's not really the point.

Looks like I'm going to stick with the sequencing and say it's 2 rolls.
I'll dig up some page and rule quotes tomorrow.

-Matt