Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As fans of a Science Fiction (and Fantasy) game I'm sure many of us are familiar with the concept of alternate histories. Fictional worlds where at some point in Earths history something changed which causes events from that point to differ from "established history". So my question is this, what alternate history have you seen (be it in a game, movie, novel etc.) or thought of yourself that you really enjoyed?

I have a few, a couple years ago I read a book that gave me an idea for a futuristic Roman Empire. The concept iss that the Empire never fell and eventually went on to controle the world and then started branching out in the future and took controle of various planets and alien races. It expanded the ideals of the Roman Empire into a galactic setting. For instance you wern't considered a Roman citizen unless you where born on Roma Terra (earth), gladitorial games existed with the combatants being of any species, the Roman military was one of the most highly trained militaries in the galaxy etc.

Another alternate history which I found interesting was a mocumentary on BBC that began with the North losing the American Civil War and how American history was changed from that point such as America being changed to the Confederate States of America, Slavery remaining legal even in modern day and actually becoming an economic staple for the CSA. It showed an interesting picture as to how the course of events might have been differant.

Britain if Boudicca had managed to drive the Romans out.
Just to see what might have been...

Britain if the Empire had remained whole (Including all American colonies)

Oooo, I love alternate histories. The best one I've read recently, (although it was an airport level series!) was about an American Naval fleet from 2020 or so going back in time to just before the attack on Pearl Harbour. Great read, and I liked how they ended up prolonging the war and being seen as horrible, immoral people by thier own allies!

It was everything you wanted 'The Final Countdown' to be!

Alternate WW2 is fun.

If the ancient greeks decided to combine the hero engine (a steam engine capable of turning an axle at high speed) and their railway system... how far ahead would we be now?

There's a guy named Harry Turtledove, all he does is alternative history.....He's not that good of a writer though. I enjoy his premises more than the actual books.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a guy named Harry Turtledove, all he does is alternative history.....He's not that good of a writer though. I enjoy his premises more than the actual books.

a friend of mine read 'Guns of the South' by Turtledove sometime ago and said it was interesting.

Any more?

The Man in the High Castle is good, although it's more about perception than a genuine "what if" scenario. It's an alternate WWII history where the Axis powers won, revolving around an in-universe alternate history where the Axis powers lost, but which is also distinct from reality in its own ways. It's exactly what you'd expect from Philip K Dick.

alarmingrick wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a guy named Harry Turtledove, all he does is alternative history.....He's not that good of a writer though. I enjoy his premises more than the actual books.

a friend of mine read 'Guns of the South' by Turtledove sometime ago and said it was interesting.

Yeah, actually that's not bad. It involves evil time traveling south African racists who go back in time to help the confederacy win the war. It's a stand alone book.
Turtledove seems to really like the idea of the CSA winning. He's got another like 12 part series about the same thing.

Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream".

Adolf Hitler emigrates to the USA after the Great War and becomes a pulp science fiction writer.

How come no one ever has fantasies about mundane alternate realities? Like, what if I had put the cheese on top of the cucumber on the sandwich yesterday? Who knows what fabulous adventures could have occured?

Now we will never know...

This is actually a common day dream I have. And I've explored it before but have read countless articules about games and I seem to recall a movie with Nazi Europe and America working together as allies in the 70's.

I already covered the overused and all too common "What if Hitler won."

What would life be like if we had another ice age? Complete with now-extinct super predators.

Life if the Mongols were still conquering the world. What if Aztecs still lived in Central America? They could become fanatical cultists with terrorist-esqe gear who sacrifice random tourists and other such victims to their gods.

What if JFK survived his assassination attempt? Like if the sniper missed and was apprehended or killed.

I'll stop there just to save everyone the trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_history

I enjoy the 1632 series quite a bit - a West Virginia coal town gets transported to Germany during the 30 years war - Lots of books, and it's collaborative effort between many authors.

The Hammer and the Cross is an excellent trilogy where instead of falling to christianity, scandinavians undergo a resurgence of faith in the old norse gods.

The Strange Affair of Spring Heeled Jack is good - a steampunk set in an alternate 'victorian' london.

A lot of Turtledove's stuff is worth reading, and the scope of the southern victory series is pretty awesome if you get into it.

This one isn't a troll even though I am sure it is a touchy subject, Fatherland by i think it as Thomas Harris. A friend of mine did an English essay about it at school and it got me curious about reading it.
Setting is a few years after WW2, the Axis powers won and follows a policeman investigating some murders of previously high ranking Nazis and uncovering certain truths, showing how much propaganda they were fed during the war and what wasn't told to them.

Command and Conquer: Red Alert

The years of rice and salt.

Raptors never died out and we had to fight them throughout history...
Greeks V. Raptors
Romans V. Raptors
That might actually be fun to imagine...

Vargtass wrote:How come no one ever has fantasies about mundane alternate realities? Like, what if I had put the cheese on top of the cucumber on the sandwich yesterday? Who knows what fabulous adventures could have occured?

Now we will never know...

I have constant fantasies an bout mundane alternate food types, usually starting about 10.00AM. Oh wait I am having one now....mmmpizza...

corpsesarefun wrote:If the ancient greeks decided to combine the hero engine (a steam engine capable of turning an axle at high speed) and their railway system... how far ahead would we be now?

The Greeks came close on alot of things. I cant remember the name of it, but they made a gear and cog driven computer that did calculations and such. If only

KingCracker wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:If the ancient greeks decided to combine the hero engine (a steam engine capable of turning an axle at high speed) and their railway system... how far ahead would we be now?

The Greeks came close on alot of things. I cant remember the name of it, but they made a gear and cog driven computer that did calculations and such. If only

I don't know about the "if only" part. Greece and Rome were abound in slaves. The destruction of the Roman Empire ended slavery or at least brought fiefdom a step up from it.
Would you really want to live ina world where Rome or Greece had endured and prospered?

Greeks, yes.
While they had slaves they also were extremely progressive in most aspects of society and valued science and maths highly.

The romans, no.

Frazzled wrote:

Vargtass wrote:How come no one ever has fantasies about mundane alternate realities? Like, what if I had put the cheese on top of the cucumber on the sandwich yesterday? Who knows what fabulous adventures could have occured?

Now we will never know...

I have constant fantasies an bout mundane alternate food types, usually starting about 10.00AM. Oh wait I am having one now....mmmpizza...

That sounds good.

How about Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell? Would that be "alternate history" or more in the fantasy vein?

corpsesarefun wrote:Greeks, yes.
While they had slaves they also were extremely progressive in most aspects of society and valued science and maths highly.

The romans, no.

Progressive in what way exactly? They had slaves. The wealthy ruled.

Frazzled wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Greeks, yes.
While they had slaves they also were extremely progressive in most aspects of society and valued science and maths highly.

The romans, no.

Progressive in what way exactly? They had slaves. The wealthy ruled.

New idea's faced little opposition, it was a haven for philosophers and scientists.

Mostly because of the lack of centralised government, lack of the dark ages and large amounts of slaves to do the hard labour that needed doing.

Remember that as technology advanced slaves would become inefficient for labour and would end up living lives not dissimilar to factory workers today.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Greeks, yes.
While they had slaves they also were extremely progressive in most aspects of society and valued science and maths highly.

The romans, no.

Progressive in what way exactly? They had slaves. The wealthy ruled.

New idea's faced little opposition, it was a haven for rich, nonslave, male philosophers and scientists.

Mostly because of the lack of centralised government, lack of the dark ages and large amounts of slaves to do the hard labour that needed doing.

Fixed your typo

Remember that as technology advanced slaves would become inefficient for labour and would end up living lives not dissimilar to factory workers today.

Frazzled wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Greeks, yes.
While they had slaves they also were extremely progressive in most aspects of society and valued science and maths highly.

The romans, no.

Progressive in what way exactly? They had slaves. The wealthy ruled.

New idea's faced little opposition, it was a haven for rich, nonslave, male philosophers and scientists.

Mostly because of the lack of centralised government, lack of the dark ages and large amounts of slaves to do the hard labour that needed doing.

Fixed your typo

corpsesarefun wrote:
Remember that as technology advanced slaves would become inefficient for labour and would end up living lives not dissimilar to factory workers today.

Yea the slaves in Briatin, the Caribbean, and the US had lives not dissimilar to factory workers today.

We don't have slaves today, partially because we have technology that makes them superfluous.
As technology becomes more advanced those who once did the heavy labour would end up operating the machines that did the heavy labour. Today factory workers tend to operate machines that do heavy labour.

Grab yourself a little paperback titled:

The years of Rice and Salt...

Enjoy!

We don't have slaves today, partially because we have technology that makes them superfluous.
****bs. We don't have slaves in the Western Hemisphere because of determined politicking on the Britain side, successful rebellions in the Caribbean, and the worst war in US history. There is still slavery in the world FYI. Ask the Sudanese.

As technology becomes more advanced those who once did the heavy labour would end up operating the machines that did the heavy labour. Today factory workers tend to operate machines that do heavy labour.
***So do prisoners. Ask prison workers. Ask Chinese prisoners (and ask where their kidney went). Ask the Nazi prisoners.

Frazzled wrote:We don't have slaves today, partially because we have technology that makes them superfluous.
****bs. We don't have slaves in the Western Hemisphere because of determined politicking on the Britain side, successful rebellions in the Caribbean, and the worst war in US history. There is still slavery in the world FYI. Ask the Sudanese.

As technology becomes more advanced those who once did the heavy labour would end up operating the machines that did the heavy labour. Today factory workers tend to operate machines that do heavy labour.
***So do prisoners. Ask prison workers. Ask Chinese prisoners (and ask where their kidney went). Ask the Nazi prisoners.

Oh I'm sorry you are right, we stopped having slaves because we are nice guys not because we found a better way to do things.

My bad.