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So, I'm reading a few threads on here, and it seems that within the Table Top Gaming industry, having a "relationship" (positive) with your customers is regarded as a requirement for success, as opposed to simply being a nicety.

I've had a think about it, and I can think of no other hobby that demands this level of relationship, most other hobby companies, simply supply their wares and then, as a consumer, it's up to you. If we take the general complaints about GW, and then think about contrasting companies like PP, Mantic, Corvus Belli, MERCS...etc etc, we can see this recurring theme.

So, what is it about this hobby that we feel we need this constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase? Why do we feel that as hobbyist we deserve an active hand in our chosen games development? Don't get me wrong, I know the power of market research, but it seems (the internet community at least) the community wants more, and we get disgruntled when it doesn't happen.

Another thing related to this is our apparent need to purchase every new thing a company puts out.....ok, so lets take GW for instance. People are bummed because of their latest attempt to restrict knowledge of their upcoming releases.....people seem to feel cheated and exposed.....but why? We don't have to purchase every new release as it comes out, and yes, that includes rules......are gaming groups so enraptured by GW that they can't decide for themselves how they enjoy their hobby time?

The way it seems in so many cases, is that consumers have become slaves to the machine......

So, what do you guys think?

Note: I know GW is going to get some serious air-time in a discussion of this nature, but this thread was not intended as a GW bash or fanboi thread.....if anything it's about us, the gamers, rather than the gaming companies

Because the internet.
It is not a phenomenon confined to hobbying.

News programmes ask the viewers for their views and use footage from someone's cell phone.
Info is freely available and immediate.
We have 24 hour news and discuss things in OT about crap the other side of the globe.

Internet blogs, websites and forums for just about any subject under the sun.
Talk shows on TV and Radio, "reality" TV with every Dick John and Sally having an opinion on all and sundry.

Gaming isn't any different.

Well that doesn't explain our need to be constantly stroked by the gaming companies though does it? Why don't we treat buying a game like we would buying any other item? an air-rifle, a fishing rod, a go-kart?

I'm not saying blogs and online reviews are not valid, of course they are, but our constant need to be pampered to by our favorite gaming companies goes way beyond that!

Game companies sell an experience, just as much as they sell a product... this takes the form of the rules for the games, and the types of game released.

Take your fishing rod and go-kart for example... they don't come packaged with a fishing permit or go-kart track hire so the product is separate from the experience it provides, and therefore any factors beyond the quality of the product are not directly attached to the company that manufacturer them.

The seller of the fishing permit is responsible for maintaining the quality of the river or lake.

The people that run and manage the go-kart track are responsible for making it fun and safe.

In the case of wargames companies, all but a few of them provide both the product and the experience, which is why the connection exists.

Without popular rules sets that lots of people use, we're left with nothing but models for the sake of painting/ collecting and playing whatever home-mae rules someone has come up with.

I am not so sure that there are not websites full of complaints about air guns. Difference is that consumers are savvy.
If I wanted to buy an air gun I can buy magazines and trawl the internet for reviews. A crap product won't get recommended. I will be less likely to buy it.
For all I know there are fanboys for certain brands?

The gaming hobby has a much more complex set of subjective aspects than most other hobbies. However, I see the same sorts of discussions in scale modelling communities.

I am not suggesting for a moment that information culture is the sole issue, just that it is an part of the issue and stimulates the feeding frenzy.

Using emotive terms like "being pampered" is probably not helpful
But maybe you are correct because I get the impression there is an bit of spoilt kids syndrome in certain parts of the gaming community.

Using the term "pampered" may be emotive, but it's close to the truth.

People, for example, hate when the argument "if you don't like it go elsewhere" is used, and yet even so, it remains a true option....people do not wish to take advantage of their ability to walk away....this type of outlook suggests to me that they wish to be pampered rather than face the choices open to them.

I dislike both the use of the word "hate" being overused.
Also I dislike the "If you don't like it piss off" line too.

It is both arrogant and condescending. Apart from being nothing more than a platitude.
I am neither pampered, nor incapable of making my own decisions as to which gaming system, if any, I wish to use.

If you wish for a reasonable discussion of this issue, and imho, you have raised a valid topic, then insulting people from the kick off is not a good idea.

It sounds that you are not willing to listen to other peoples' opinions, so it is not going to be an open discussion.

You are overlooking the amount of investment in time and cash that people may have already spent on a hobby they are passionate about. It is easy for me to say stuff it as I am relatively new and will have under £100 worth of unfinished 40K models that will never get used.
The WHFB stuff will do for other systems.

I also do not have the emotional attachment to a given game system. But I can understand the dilemma for others who have poured a lot of commitment into the hobby. It may not be such an easy option just to give it up.
Actually the more I think of it the less reason I see for you to accuse people of being pampered.

Delephont wrote:People, for example, hate when the argument "if you don't like it go elsewhere" is used

Probably because it is a non-argument in the same way as someone who loves James Bond but doesn't like the direction of the latest films being told to "go watch something else then". Watching something else will not be the same as watching new James Bond films which are closer to the feel of the originals and is about as helpful as telling someone who is on fire to go drown themselves - yes, it puts out the flames but is not a solution.

To be honest this and many other of your posts/topics on the subject have a very similar core of "I'm right, so try and justify your position" and even in a world of opinion where there are no right or wrong stances, yours always comes across as condescending.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I dislike both the use of the word "hate" being overused.
Also I dislike the "If you don't like it piss off" line too.

It is both arrogant and condescending. Apart from being nothing more than a platitude.
I am neither pampered, nor incapable of making my own decisions as to which gaming system, if any, I wish to use.

If you wish for a reasonable discussion of this issue, and imho, you have raised a valid topic, then insulting people from the kick off is not a good idea.

It sounds that you are not willing to listen to other peoples' opinions, so it is not going to be an open discussion.

You are overlooking the amount of investment in time and cash that people may have already spent on a hobby they are passionate about. It is easy for me to say stuff it as I am relatively new and will have under £100 worth of unfinished 40K models that will never get used.
The WHFB stuff will do for other systems.

I also do not have the emotional attachment to a given game system. But I can understand the dilemma for others who have poured a lot of commitment into the hobby. It may not be such an easy option just to give it up.
Actually the more I think of it the less reason I see for you to accuse people of being pampered.

Interesting response. The points I'm hoping to generate a discussion on are not necessarily my own points of view, but observations I have made while reading the posts on this forum. While you may not have an emotional attachment to the system, others may have, so I'm not sure why you feel singled out in this thread?

To be honest, everything you've stated so far are exactly the points needed to generate a discussion on this point, although I would hope that the discussion could be held without people feeling attacked.

So if my use of certain terms like "hate" offends you, then I apologise and I will consider more carefully how I type things in future to avoid offending others.

SilverMK2 wrote:Probably because it is a non-argument in the same way as someone who loves James Bond but doesn't like the direction of the latest films being told to "go watch something else then". Watching something else will not be the same as watching new James Bond films which are closer to the feel of the originals and is about as helpful as telling someone who is on fire to go drown themselves - yes, it puts out the flames but is not a solution.

To be honest this and many other of your posts/topics on the subject have a very similar core of "I'm right, so try and justify your position" and even in a world of opinion where there are no right or wrong stances, yours always comes across as condescending.

Ok, perhaps I need to clarify my own opinion before seeking the opinion of others. In many ways, a company puts out a product, whether it be a James Bond film or a new set of gaming rules....half the population likes it, the other doesn't....the people who don't like it complain (which is fair enough)....my question to you is, what are the companies supposed to do about it? If they re-make the film, or re-write the rules, they run the risk of simply robbing Peter to pay Paul, so the opinion group switch, and the company finds itself back at square one. In the case of the James Bond movie, actually, the only solution to the disgruntled viewer is "go watch something else".....does it solve the problem, well of course not, because the viewers problem is that (in their eyes) the "right" James Bond movie hasn't been made.....but at the same time, throwing you slipper at the T.V. isn't also going to magically change the film in front of you.

Your last statement, if I'm being honest, doesn't make any sense what so ever my posts on this subject are simply my opinions. How should I deliver my opinions if I don't actually subscribe to them? That you translate that into a stance of "I'm right and you're wrong" suggest to me that you may need to re-evaluate your understanding of debate.

I might also add that condescension is observed rather than delivered....so if you constantly read my posts that way, perhaps that is more a reflection on you rather then me. However, in the same way I have offered my apologies to Chibi Bodge-Battle, I will happily offer them to you, and if you can suggest some way that I can communicate with you that avoids me coming across as condescending, I'd be happy to take those suggestions under consideration.

The whole concept of brands is to create an emotional connection between the consumer and your brand. This is what many consumer facing companies do by "marketing" in a very general sense -- more specifically by blogs, showrooms, You Tube channels, advertising, sponsorship of festivals, sporting contests and TV shows, and so on.

Obviously companies only do that sort of thing because they think it works.

Now, I would suggest that everyone should remember the following:



That said, people do form emotional connections to brands. You only need read the fanboi wars between Macintosh/Windows, or PS3/XBox360, to realise that. At a less intense level, everyone has preferences based on relatively trivial differences. I prefer to buy Plymouth English Gin because I like the shape of the bottle. I don't suppose it tastes any different to Tanqueray or Bombay Sapphire once mixed with tonic water and lemon.

I don't know whether GW has a specific policy of forming emotional brand based relationships with consumers on order to maximise profit. I suspect they don't, or they would be publishing blogs, forums and so on. Their attitude is actually more like a turtle. Pull the head inside the shell and ignore the consumers until they go away.

It remains to be seen if this will be a successful long term strategy.

Kilkrazy wrote: I don't know whether GW has a specific policy of forming emotional brand based relationships with consumers on order to maximise profit. I suspect they don't, or they would be publishing blogs, forums and so on. Their attitude is actually more like a turtle. Pull the head inside the shell and ignore the consumers until they go away.

It remains to be seen if this will be a successful long term strategy.

That's an interesting take on GW in particular.

In comparison to MERCS, and others who have invested in the internet as a form of customer interface, and it really seems to work for them! On the other hand, GW has invested heavily in Gaming stores, and while these venues would appear to be more interfacing than a faceless blog on the internet, they seem to have the opposite effect...

In this day and age, the online presence of companies and their 'corporate image/culture' or the lifestyle that they appear to offer (Nike, Apple, 'Cloud' computing) is nearly as important as the product.

The trend is clearly towards more openness, idea flow, and interaction. GW tries to buck this trend by ignoring its online community, restricting communication with its consumers, and displaying stolid determination to do business the way they decide to do business with print media as their primary (only?) customer interface.

In short, GW customer relationship appears to be the exact opposite of what companies like Apple, Google, and Chipotle foster. On the one hand, GW, with its slow revenue stagnation. On the other Chipotle, which doubles in size every 3 years. I wonder which model is more viable...

Ok, so maybe this is what Chibi Bodge-Battle was getting at when he pulled me up on my use of the word pampering.

It looks like people have an expectation for a company to not only provide a quality product, but to offer a kind of "after market support" in terms of keeping the products vibe "alive" post purchase.

I can see that this may be where the disatisfaction for certain companies and the satisfaction for certain others is coming from.

So I forbade myself from doing this, but it seems relevant to the discussion. It seems to me then that the whole idea of GW's stores is perhaps out-moded?!?

I mean, aside from a place to play their games, and create a sort of local gaming community, beyond those aspects the store thing seems to be failing? Does that seem like a fair appraisal?

Going back to my original point then, what is it that we gamers want from our chosen games company? (apart from the obvious good rules and good quality miniatures) and is it something that can be realistically delivered? remembering that you can't please all the people all the time!

Delephont wrote:So, what is it about this hobby that we feel we need this constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase? Why do we feel that as hobbyist we deserve an active hand in our chosen games development? Don't get me wrong, I know the power of market research, but it seems (the internet community at least) the community wants more, and we get disgruntled when it doesn't happen.

Well I think unlike other hobbies I think their is a higher level emotional investment which I think is mainly due to painting and converting side of the game, the end of the day you spend a week painting and converting a model (and in most cases a lot of money), a new codex/armybook comes out and makes it unusable you going to be pretty pissed off, I know its not that way with everyone, some people get pissed off because the auto win button has been changes but I certainly think for a lot having really cool models suddenly become paper weights really is a pain

Another thing related to this is our apparent need to purchase every new thing a company puts out.....ok, so lets take GW for instance. People are bummed because of their latest attempt to restrict knowledge of their upcoming releases.....people seem to feel cheated and exposed.....but why? We don't have to purchase every new release as it comes out, and yes, that includes rules......are gaming groups so enraptured by GW that they can't decide for themselves how they enjoy their hobby time?

I don't think this is exclusive to wargaming, I know with my model railways when they release a new update model that looks 10 times better I am always very tempted to go out and buy one (money permitting), what it comes down to is why did you start wargaming in the first place? I mean for its always been how cool the models look! I have always wanted my army to look the best is can, with GW before the prices got silly I would always buy the latest version of a model, I think part of was by the time a new one had released my painting had improved as well. I wouldn't say that is true in all cases like with my Blood Ravens I hate the new speeder models and have been buying the old 2nd ed metal ones on ebay, I just think they look so much cooler than the current ones! As for the rumours I actually don't care, I think the restriction is a bit silly with GW as it kills a ot of hype but hey, people will still buy it!

I think GW has fostered this emotional response in it's consumers. What other company comes out with "new and improved" items on a monthly basis? Ford Motor Company, for example, doesn't. They release new models on a yearly basis, and can charge more for them due to improvements and features. People loyal to whatever game they play are trained by GW to wait and see what new rules, units, upgrades, ect the development team has come up with. The frustration comes when the "older" items increase in price due to development on newer items. Loyalty that has been cultured is then tested by a perceived "not necessary" price increase. No one complains when Ford raises prices year after year, they say: "Oh, Bluetooth? No wonder it's more money.

Games Workshop products are kind of unique as they have a dedicated high street presence here in the uk

TBH , I think GW sucks in the same way that Apple sucks ( its good bad its bad ) They make some half decent ( but far from perfect products ) , drown you in their PR and make you pay though the nose...just like Apple

...every time im jumped on by a GW staffer it kind of makes me wanna barf, lol , they are so indoctrinated and brainwashed by their companies PR
agreed they are pleasant . informative and helpful...but somewhere in the pit of my stomach i want to grab them by the throat amd tell them to stfu already

anon GW staffer "... oh yes people will winge , but the same people come back next week and buy our products"

me " but your not realy listening , your dictating , please take your foot of mine and , just lay the framework and the global community will will in the gaps "








It is important to remember that GW pushed its boat out pre internet days....it is also important to remember that GW has a mind numbingly small % of the entire wargames market as a whole..they do however have a high profile hi st presence focused on table top gaming ( in some parts of the uk )

However , No one has yet been able to combine computer gaming with table topgaming...warcraft online not warhammer online dominates , in korea starcraft dominates

Outside of games workshop, wargaming communities of all kinds prosper. The lack of comfortable easy to get to tabletop venues ( comfy chairs / drink beer /eat food etc ) has always made tabletop gaming a niche ' thang ' and fanboy dominated apple stylee. Its hard to beat a mouse mat , and wargaming the comfort of your own home...that said If GW closed all its doors tomorrow table top war games would continue at about the same level they do today.

why ? well the internet and online communities are able to take up the slack in a way that just wasn't possible pre 'tinternet days'










It may well be that the GW high street presence disappears all together over the next decade...information wants to be free , so the future may well be cheaper plastic purchased online or at any toy stores..even Tesco's and Asda. You see GW no longer provides a unique hub of information , the internet community can serve itself "information wise " far more effectively than any corporate boffins could ever dream off. ...... It has not escaped my attention , that space marines carry religious scrolls and that GW guards its Bible with the Monastic fervor , alas the internet is like the Gutenberg printing press , oh woe are we (GW corporate heads ) , the word, our word is available to the unwashed masses...we are undone (sighs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg

If i want to understand WH , i come here or watch tutorials on you tube , every thing fluff wise / rule wise etc is down loadable FOC ....GW will want to complain about Intellectual property rights , but in this day and age free information = large community = participation = sales ...a lesson GW has yet to learn.

As table top gaming tends to be played locally , the need for a global universal rule set is less critical...any plastic ...any house rules will do. I do think there is room in the market for the "Apple" of table top games ...but Apple for all its faults is much smarter than GW because its a computer company....if GW could get its act together and embrace the computer age it would be facing a far better future than it currently does.





....remember GW , you know that company that used to make warhammer ?

history is littered with companies that believed in themselves and not their customers....Sinclair a prime British example

GW is going through a phase of self delusion, its targeting young children and developing a creche ( Hitler youth program lol ) brainwashing the young.
Its a valid approach in some respects , but what satisfies a 10 year old from a middle class background for a short time , a summer or three may not be the best approach in the long run.
....want ketchup with that ?








The future

Its big wide rainbow planet out there , 7 billions souls & growing, the future is destined to be information rich and energy poor.
GW strategy of closing shops and raising prices is likely to back fire before to long. Yes in this future expensive hobbies will be traded for cheaper ones , (we are some way off playing shove halfpenny for a loaf of bread lol ) But If i was in charge of GW future id play the game ...and it is a game , very differently.

1 Embrace the internet...its power to spread information ( give all the rules n fluff , tutorials and what not away fro free in every & language on the planet )
2 realy listen to your current customers
3 massively upscale your plastic operation ...if Indians want to play with war elephants with wings so be it , if the Chinese want dragons and samurai swords so be it , tune the game to the culture
4 last but not least, spam cheap plastic like the world was gonna end tomorrow and you will have a community 100 million strong

The first plastic miniatures company that does this (prolly Chinese , lol ) will dominate the arena of table top gaming.

There is room for 100 or even 1000+ different armies , if the codex and rules where streamlined this would not be an issue at all.

With Economies of scale 50 quid would buy you a 2000 point army , a crate of beer or a few bowls of rice a starter one.

Ultimately this is the future of table top gaming. The internet delivering universal information for free , Chinese or Indian villages knocking out tabletop quality painted miniatures by the truck load.
Everyone's a winner , table top gamers across the globe will have access to low cost plastic & free rules....the power of internet communities will do the rest.

my 2 cents, rubles , yen etc

This is a really interesting thread. I've been a long time lurker here at DakkaDakka but a member of a few other boards. Personally I hate the continual whining that goes on on the net (about everything not just GW) but in this case GW does have to share the burden of blame for this whining.

IMHO the issue between customer relations and GW is really complicated, and these are just my thoughts and definitely not reflective of everyone's experience. Back in the 80s (when there was no internet) the people who played warhammer were beardies (like I am now) and D&D gamers. These was a very specific demographic. Fantasy wasn't as mainstream as it is now (especially since the LOTR movies and Warcraft).

In the 90s GW started targetting younger markets. And I was one of those kids who fell in love with the old style 40K.

As time passed I noticed that every time I went into the GW shop in Dublin I was getting older and the guys playing there kept getting younger. Right now anytime I'm in that shop the only people playing (during the 9-5 hours) are 9-12 year-olds. After hours it is different there are older gamers etc etc But my point is GW targets a very young market that does not have a lot of cash. These demographic is more likely to be hit hardest by price hikes and by competitivness issues. Others are not. For instance I've had a manticore since the 2002 that is and remains crap in the game I still love the model but never play it. It doesn't bother me but I can see how this would do most people's head in.

On top of this as a number of posters above infer that currently many people relate to warhammer in a similiar way to how they relate to video-gaming. The relationship and business model that GW has is VERY different to that of gaming cmpanies who invite Beta testing and opinion polls. GW's style of business harks back to D&D not Warcraft.

On top of this GW's old website (6 years ago) was very much geared towards converting and DIY terrain building. The old storm of chaos supplement and LOTR sections had tons of tutorials on how to build your own terrain and gaming board. Only about 5% of this material survived the website relaunch (mainly campaign material). The comapny must have realized that they were losing money this way and made a business decision to corner that market by releasing terrain and gaming boards themselves. So that now, other than the zigurat tutorial, GW have stopped using the web for this kind of community relationship. Back in the early 2000s Black Gobbo was a weekly converters' corner on the US GW site; each country's own site ha dtheir own converting tid-bits (especially Canada, Germany and France). But this is gone and even the Astromicon section of the new site (that housed the directory to articles like that still on the site) is gone. The metal bitz order aspect of gaming is gone too.

I personally think this was a horrible decision - back in the old days when I had to save pocket money to buy models I decided to play dark elves. Now up until the recent release there was nothing for us for years. Converting and DIY modelling was the main stay of the hobby for me. As it was for people with TK armies, Bretonians, Wood Elves (for a long time) etc.

I don't know why everyone has to have their 2c on every new model a portion of that is just because that's how the internet works. Personally I rarely give a toss about models realeased for armies other than mine so in contrast to Swuk's POV from mine GW is a company who part realease a product over years rather than releasing a new one for me every month.

TBH a lot of people don't relate to the product the way GW do or many other customers do. Partly due to the fact that GW (a niche company) targetted a mass market full of people that aren't familiar with the business model GW uses and part because times have changed.

The internet community (mainly the gaming and Modelling, painting and terrain communities) fill the gaps left by the loss of GW's DIY terrain tuts and converting corners, but I take the point that it *feels* like GW are discouraging this by selling their own terrain. This leads to bitterness for some people. Other people just shop around.

I personally don't have a specific issue with GW wrt prices - costs all over the world are rising due to the recession and the price of oil. Plastics are made form oil. GW needs plastic and thus has to pay more, and thus has to charge more. That's life. To my mind there's as much sense bitching to GW staffers about that as there is to petrol pump attendants. However the costs of things needs to fall or GW will loose customers due to the recession.

As regards the rumour mill - this is the internet community's own fault. Too much childish bitching has led to a childish punishment. Both GW's decision to clam-up about new releases and the community's reaction to that decision are childish.

I do have an issue with the game design practices of GW however. This 2011 not 1983. GW should be encouraging a core game system that they can get feedback upon from the gaming community. Using the internet to find *serious* play testers etc should be possible and should be of benefit to everyone. Core rules should be free, easy to read and sensibly laid out. Army list rules should all always work with the core set no matter how it changes. There is no point designing (as it seems they did with Wood Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Demons of Chaos and Dark Elves) an army with one edition of the rules in mind and then release a whole new system that unbalances the game.

But hey life aint perfect and TBH I don't see anyone being able to create a *perfect* system. But I do hope that GW will go through this 'isolationist' period and then move to a more relaxed relationship with the community that takes advantage of the new demographic's expectations and attitudes to technology rather than insisting of the D&D inspired corporate model.

anyone who is happy to pay 20 quid fro something that costs 2 quid needs thy head examined ( sure 1000 quid over 20 years in nothing but ! and there are many big buts )

high prices GW prices are 2 if not 3 times higher than they actually need to be ( bordering on criminal ) ...like paying a fiver for a wilted sandwich at a motorway service station

high prices = barrier to entry

high prices = resentment

high prices = much smaller community if you actually play the game and not just paint or collect

when it was just middle class geeks ..grown now into beardies ...GW ways where less of an issue

I think the beardies have been let down , the new gen of geeks are being preached n fleeced , and the much wider market and global community being under served



It is very doable to serve all the markets , expensive fine cast for collectors , highly refined armies/rules etc for the players, cheap s chip starter sets for casual gamers who might paint or play for fun.

GW just ain't doing it , " i hold these truths to be self evident "

Delephont wrote:It looks like people have an expectation for a company to not only provide a quality product, but to offer a kind of "after market support" in terms of keeping the products vibe "alive" post purchase.

Another issue for me is honesty in dealing with me - the customer.

Being honest with the release cycle lets the customer make informed decisions about their investment. e.g. You can go to auto trade shows and see the upcoming car models. The manufacturer's themselves show the new model year well in advance of being able to buy them. The current model year gets discounted as the fiscal year wears on. At all times, the information is there for the customer to make an educated decision - cost vs. the new hotness. GW on the other hand, has a nasty habbit of selling materials slated for discontinuation right up until the switchover. While this makes a certain amount of sense to clear out stocks and continue to make money - Little Billy who bought a starter or codex right on the eve of the switchover isn't going to feel like he got a fair shake. With information being increasingly restricted regarding releases - GW does not seem to be shying away from this mindset. In fact, if anything, their new policy seems tailored to enhance current practice.

Finally - while all models have an "expiration date" due to "codex creep" and "edition changes" - GW's one army at a time model exacerbates this problem by having entire armies invalidated all at once, where as some of their competitor's wave release format mitigates this to an extent.

Delephont wrote:
So, what is it about this hobby that we feel we need this constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase? Why do we feel that as hobbyist we deserve an active hand in our chosen games development?

Tabletop wargames of the GW persuasion are very different from other hobbies such as chess or fishing. The rules of chess do not change. If you buy a set, then you will not need to make any more purchases. The rules in GW style wargames do change. Given the money and time invested in an army, hobbyists naturally want a hand in the development in the game to ensure that their army is not changed in an undesirable way. This is all the more the case because GW has a history of nerfing armies. Wargames are also a social hobby, as more than one player is needed to play a game. In fishing you do not need other anglers. Wargamers want a relationship with a company because the company's actions effect the player base, and thus the opportunity to find a game.

I think the problem is that GW (and some other wargames) try to sell themselves as a whole package by selling models, rules and arranging events. This is even more true for GW because they have there own shops and a lot of people only experience of wargaming is in GW store (GW is happy to try and encourage this relationship - hence the "GW hobby" and GW modeling supplies). Unlike a lot of hobbies people don't just by the product they want and go, they have to buy multiple products and rely on the company for a location to play. While it's possible to just buy and play with friends you will be missing out on a large part of the hobby. Companies are happy to encourage people to rely on them but won't accept the downsides of that kind of relationship.

Most hobbies you can buy a product and continue using it for as long as you want (Some products will become outdated but that still takes a long time.) whereas in a lot of wargames you are required to regularly buy new models or rules. You don't have a choice who to buy from, you want 40k you have to buy from GW (or a shop stocking GW) you can't choose who to use. This is very different from almost any other hobby- people would complain the same if only one company sold Skis and they started making unpopular choices. If you enjoy 40k you have no other option but to put up with GW, where as in most hobbies we can choose from the company that suits us best. If the compay who owns yout favourite games rises the price you have to accept it or find a new game- this is especialy difficult if you have already invested a lot in the hobby. If you want to buy a car but don't like the buissness decisions of one company you just buy a different car, Gw can do what they like because if you want a 40k model you have to use GW.

I belive being such a niche hobby makes a difference. It can be quite difficult for people to participate in the hobby without relying on a large company. If I want to play paintball I can go to an independant painballing centre and have a good chance of playing. You can't really do that with wargaming. There are clubs but they aren't very common, especially in the UK, so people have to go to a shop to play. For a lot of people companies aren't just plaes to buy rules / models but also facilitators of the hobby.

*I have used GW as an example but the situation is the same for any of the big companies.

A bit off topic-
cailil - while plastic is made of oil, very little of the price of the model is down to the cost of plastic. Even a large increase in the price of oil won't change the price of a model by very much. While I don't see the point in complaining anymore GW price rises are due to GW wanting to make more money.

keezus wrote:

Delephont wrote:It looks like people have an expectation for a company to not only provide a quality product, but to offer a kind of "after market support" in terms of keeping the products vibe "alive" post purchase.

Another issue for me is honesty in dealing with me - the customer.

Being honest with the release cycle lets the customer make informed decisions about their investment. e.g. You can go to auto trade shows and see the upcoming car models. The manufacturer's themselves show the new model year well in advance of being able to buy them. The current model year gets discounted as the fiscal year wears on. At all times, the information is there for the customer to make an educated decision - cost vs. the new hotness. GW on the other hand, has a nasty habbit of selling materials slated for discontinuation right up until the switchover. While this makes a certain amount of sense to clear out stocks and continue to make money - Little Billy who bought a starter or codex right on the eve of the switchover isn't going to feel like he got a fair shake. With information being increasingly restricted regarding releases - GW does not seem to be shying away from this mindset. In fact, if anything, their new policy seems tailored to enhance current practice.

Finally - while all models have an "expiration date" due to "codex creep" and "edition changes" - GW's one army at a time model exacerbates this problem by having entire armies invalidated all at once, where as some of their competitor's wave release format mitigates this to an extent.

I think you've raised some really vaild points (hope that doesn't sound condescending!), and this may also go a long way towards explaining the way people view their relationship with their gaming company. GW and others are apt to updating their rules and this can make or break an army. so yeah I can imagine a certain degree of coat-tail hanging and bated breath waiting for the axe to fall.

However, my point still stands.....just because say, GW, brings out 6th Edition WH40K, do I have to buy it? Do I have to play it? If I'm actually content with playing 5th ed, is it even wise to move onto something that may or may not bring satisfaction?

Maybe you guys can help. If I went into a local GW store, only using GW products, but wanting to play 3rd edition rules, providing I can get a game, would this be allowed? If so, then hey, all the pressure is off to keep chasing the GW holy grail, right? If on the other hand, this would be, shall we say, discouraged, then here we have a situation where a company is actually trying to force it's products into the market....surely this is a company that needs to be avoided.....surely then, I should pack my bags and go elsewhere.

Taking the car analogy....if I buy a Ford Mustang tomorrow, and three years from now I take it into a Ford dealership for a service, and they refuse to service the car because it isn't their latest product, and they refuse me parts because they stopped supplying them when the latest product came out....would you ever buy from Ford again?

Just some thoughts

This is a very interesting thread. I'm on my way to a wedding / family reunion so I have to be brief, but I'll duck in later for more discussion.

I think that in wargaming we're in a competition where all sides are not equal. In tourneys there's often a strict WYSIWYG policy and if you don't have what you need, you have to make it. In GW land if when a new codex came out the entire line that appeared in the codex came out with it in the same month, you wouldn't have a bitch session like you currently see. But because that never happens, people are constantly wanting to know when they favorite, or most used/useful item is going to come out. Ie "Where are my Tervigons, where are my Thunderwolves...." To put it in baseball terms - Space Marines are the New York Yankees and Tyranids/Sisters/Necrons/etc are the Oakland A's...and they all have to share the same bat...and the outfield doesn't get gloves.

Also because it's a competition rules have to be clearly stated, consistently from card to card, codex to codex. And if they're not, you get people discussion letter of the law versus spirit of the law. Dakka is probably one of 8 different forums where people go back and forth on rulings. The worst offending wargame companies ought to take a trip over to a successful CCG company and take a class or two. Because new rules are added over the course of years per edition, if one writer has not paid attention to what (and how) things have already been stated by other writers he runs a serious potential to screw things up for his audience. In the case of GW these little idiosyncrasies seem to happen alot If rules were more down pat, wargamers wouldn't feel the need to be nutured on that level either.

Once again my take on the relationship we have with our manufacturers is that I'm competing against others and I want a level of equality on the playing field. I'm not scouting the Reaper catalog bitchin about when 2011s new Sophie the Succubus will come out. Nor am I shouting at Hasegawa or Tamiya to put out the F-22D in 1/35th scale. You hardly hear about those last two cites because when your doing solo projects timetable isn't as important. But when you've got a rulebook in your hand and you're making a serious attempt at having fun or competing I find that I'd like some communication from the people (the only people) that are going to make that happen. And if you call that nuturing, then so be it.

-MightyG

It's the internet.

Without the internet, you didn't used to have the information flow. GW or anyone else had little other than magazines like White Dwarf, Dungeon, or The Dragon. Information was also mostly in the form of advertisements, or published interveiws.

People today want instant gratification, and instant attention to their demands. They believe that they should be able to communicate back to manufacturers and get answers, or cause things to be changed. This wasn't the case years ago. You talked to your local store, saw stuff at Games days, saw ads about upcoming models in magazines.
Newer companies are doing a better job than GW of communicating (always GW's weakness, going back decades), but then again, the newer companies have to do something to compete with the 600 lb gorilla.

Every company today has problems.
-GW's is and has been communication.
-PP needs more retailer support, and needs to get a handle on their supply problems.
-Smaller companies have numerous hurdles to overcome: Finding out how to communicate with stores, advertise product so it will sell in stores, set up organized play, support retailers, etc.

-All companies are dealing with the rising costs of metal and shipping, and dealing with the economy.

In the computer games arena if you dont get jiggy with the punters you get crucified plain and simple

and that is why PC games took a tumble, ( yes changing h/ware was an issue ) but not listening to your customers sent 99% of pc games companies straight to the bottom.

If GW doesn't change its ways it going to shrink back to its starting size. Then the miniatures market may fracture and diversify ( just as the PC games market did )..table top gaming will dip globally but then explode when the right mindset & money combine...see my note on the future in my previous post

Delephont Wrote:
Maybe you guys can help. If I went into a local GW store, only using GW products, but wanting to play 3rd edition rules, providing I can get a game, would this be allowed? If so, then hey, all the pressure is off to keep chasing the GW holy grail, right? If on the other hand, this would be, shall we say, discouraged, then here we have a situation where a company is actually trying to force it's products into the market....surely this is a company that needs to be avoided.....surely then, I should pack my bags and go elsewhere.

I don't think they would be very happy about it. From my experience they would eithe just constantly pester you to buy the new rules, give priority to other players or just stop you from playing. They want to be showing people how good their new products are so playing 3rd edition isn't going to help them sell. Unfortunately if you like 40k you can't move company, especially if you can only get games at a GW store (which is the case for a lot of people).

Well, indeed. They want to promote the latest rules.

At home of course, do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.

So, here's the big question then.....how would the gamers break the chain?

Clearly being tied to a company, any company, and having a degree of dependancy on said company can only lead to misery for both parties in the long run....

Take Mikhaila's comments above, about some of the pressures these companies are under, and compare that to the pressures of your average gamer:

1. Finding a place to play
2. Finding a compatible play group (see point 1)
3. Funding the game
4. Ensuring long term satisfaction

These are just some of the things a gamer has to think about, and interestingly enough, most of those points actually equall a kind of financial stagnation for most gaming companies....point 3 means keeping prices the same or even reducing them and long term satisfaction could be interpreted as keeping the rules similar or the same to avoid "creep" or the "nerfing" of armies.....

So how would gamers and companies find some common ground? How can we make the love affair balanced?

There's a company up the road from me in Weymouth, called Peter Pig. They produce 15mm models and rules. Some of the more popular ones are Bloody Barons, AK47 Republic and PBI (Poor Bloody Infantryman). They are a small business, but their systems are popular, with tournaments for PBI & AK47 being held on a regular basis. The owner is a guy called Martin, who gets involved in running demo games at the local clubs.

Although I've heard people grumble about his rules, which I think is more to do with that you can't "power play", than actual issues, overal he appears to get it right with the customers. His rules are designed to be fun and give a good game. It's not about promoting a "new army".

The problem with GW is it's now about making money for the share holders. This means they always have to be looking at making more profit than the year before. Having a steady customer base and a profit margin that doesn't really change year in, year out, is no good for a publically floated company. They always have to be having a higher return each year. To do this they will need to always be coming up with things that bring people in and buy in bulk, then do the same when that batch of new customer's has lost interest.

Delephont wrote:So, here's the big question then.....how would the gamers break the chain?

Clearly being tied to a company, any company, and having a degree of dependancy on said company can only lead to misery for both parties in the long run....

Take Mikhaila's comments above, about some of the pressures these companies are under, and compare that to the pressures of your average gamer:

1. Finding a place to play
2. Finding a compatible play group (see point 1)
3. Funding the game
4. Ensuring long term satisfaction

These are just some of the things a gamer has to think about, and interestingly enough, most of those points actually equall a kind of financial stagnation for most gaming companies....point 3 means keeping prices the same or even reducing them and long term satisfaction could be interpreted as keeping the rules similar or the same to avoid "creep" or the "nerfing" of armies.....

So how would gamers and companies find some common ground? How can we make the love affair balanced?

The thing is that so many other companies understand how to deal with their customers that it is hard to see GW's actions as anything but disinterest. That is frightening, when a company has no interest in engaging their customer base in any real way, it comes off as insulting. Price is always going to be a big issue, however I honestly believe that is GW were to service their customers better, you would hear less grumbling about price, because the experience would still be worth it.

They really have turned into an uncaring empire, they don't talk to customers as much as talking at them. Oh and everything is a sales pitch now! Have you seen the website, their attempts to get you to buy multiple $40 boxes for that someone special are just ridiculous. I know you have to pitch, but really?

The best sales tool they could have is a good website that actually sells. Have well done battle reports with your beautifully painted minis! I tried to watch the battle reports on BOLS, unpainted, proxy models, shakey hands, stupid comments UNWATCHABLE! If GW would actually put quality on that site (soft sell) instead of just using it as a blatant sales aid, then that would help out a lot. There is so much proof of what the players want, how many info sites and forums to there need to be before GW realizes that this traffic could all be theirs. How may bits manufacturer and bits resellers do their have to be before GW realizes that they should never have stopped doing it in the past.

The problem is they are just indifferent. Mantic makes models that are substandard compared to GW , but Ronnie is out there all the time, putting a friendly face out there, interacting with customers and doing promotions. They give volume deals! They throw in a freebie here and there. They use their minis to make smaller games. In short they try harder. They gave away a free army to the person that could build a unit the fastest on youtube. GW doesn't seam to try at all anymore.