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Delephont wrote:Taking the car analogy....if I buy a Ford Mustang tomorrow, and three years from now I take it into a Ford dealership for a service, and they refuse to service the car because it isn't their latest product, and they refuse me parts because they stopped supplying them when the latest product came out....would you ever buy from Ford again?

To take the car analogy a bit further:

1. Ford WILL service your car, but they'll probably try and steer you towards a new car, depending on how old your current car is. It is up to you whether or not to accept their offer - your car won't mysteriously stop running or anything if you refuse. Just like how you can continue to play with your old models and the old editions.

2. Ford is under no obligation to continue to sell old cars after the new models superceed them.

I think that is as far as you can take the Wargaming and Car analogy, considering that a few things that don't really have an analogue in the car industry. The main difference is that GW also owns the roads that their cars run on. Every once in a while, they change the configuration of the roads, requiring major overhaul of their "cars".

People aren't angry with GW for wanting to sell miniatures- of course they do, it's all they are interested in. But a good selling teqnique is one that doesn't make it blantantly obvious you just want their cash and makes they company look good. It's not that they shouldn't want to get our money, it's just they do it in a way that is so obvious and often quite insulting.

Every wargaming company wants to make money but they don't get the same complaits GW do. It's because they make the customer believe they are interested in them and the hobby overall. Do I really believe mantic are doing it to help us out- no they are a business, however I like them more than GW because they appear interested in the hobby so when they do raise prices I am more sympathetic.

I was just imagining a world, where we, the consumer, put together a manual that informed companies how we want to be treated and spoke to....that would sure as hell simplify things.

Unfortunately, if you look at any University text-book on marketing and strategy, one of the critical success factors for any company in any industry is to know you customers needs.....in short the answer has been there for a very long time, it makes you wonder at what point a company feels it can re-write those basic principles and still have a chance of "winning".

4M2A wrote:...
...

I belive being such a niche hobby makes a difference. It can be quite difficult for people to participate in the hobby without relying on a large company. If I want to play paintball I can go to an independant painballing centre and have a good chance of playing. You can't really do that with wargaming. There are clubs but they aren't very common, especially in the UK, so people have to go to a shop to play.
...
...
.

There are clubs all over the place in the UK. They just aren't 40K clubs. Maybe that is the basis of the whole issue.

Many people who only play 40K (or WHFB) do not see any wargame hobby outside the GW HHHobby. They only buy GW books. They only buy GW models and paints. They only play at GW shops.

Truth to tell, of course, there isn't any GW HHHobby, there is only a commercial machine designed to vacuum the maximum possible amount of cash out of your wallet.

Once you realise that, the emotional connection with GW is broken. Perhaps that makes people feel like a sucker.

I wish people would stop seeing the hobby as a "niche" activity.
Not sure if they do so because some how it makes them feel "special" in some way.

Just seems like an excuse to put up with practices that would not otherwise be tolerated.

Hi Delephont.
1st off, good thread.
To answer you question about when companies belive they can dictate to customers ,rather than listening to them.

It all hapens when the poeple making the big decisions become too far removed from the customers they are SUPPOSED to be serving.
And they forget what thier buisness actualy is, and just base decision making purley on what appears to be the easiest route the the next set of bonuses....

EG.
The actual core demoghraphic of GW plc is not '...kiddies that buy toy soldiers...'
(This simply serves to 'justify' the corperate decisions made by corperate managment to get to the next set of bunuses.)

But gamers who want a good experiance when they play a game, and /or collectors that want good quality minatures at reasonable prices.

GW plc admit ony about 1/3 of thier customers actualy play thier rule sets.
And only about 20% of thier customers stay with GW plc products for more than 2 years.
And sales volumes are falling about 4 % every year.

A company that is engaged with thier customers would understand the company IS NOT delivering the products with suffificient 'value' to its customers.

But GW plc corperate see this lack luster performance ,and spin it into reasons to continue the same way....

C.F.O Why invest in game development when the majoroty of customers are not interested in the rules?
(Because good rules drive interest and grow the base of players and provide FREE marketing and positive word of mouth!)

C.E.O Why try to engage with customers long term, they generaly quit after a year or two?
(Because it more cost effective to retain customers than recruit new ones!)

Chairman Why not simply put up prices to make up the shortfall in sales volumes?
(Becuse raising the prices deters new starters and pushes away existing customers , at an ever increasing rate, and at one point the increase in RRP can not make up the shortfall in sales volume!)

The level gaming companies engage with their customers varies quite a bit...

From here is a free rule set, play it and see if you like it!
If you enjoy this game, visit out web site and see other products you might like ...

To companies that try to deliver a 'total hobby experiance'.

And obvuiosly the way the company presents itself sets the expectations of the customers .

Kilkrazy- I wasn't denying that clubs exist (I am a member of one so know how good it can be not to rely on a store) but a very large percentage of people playing wargames play GW games in GW stores and don't see the hobby as anything more than that. GW staff are happy to continue the myth that GW are the hobby so don't always let people know these clubs exist. While there are a lot of independant clubs GWs present on the streets draws in a lot of people who don't know anything else about wargaming. For a lot of people GW stores are the only places to get games. Being a niche hobby it isn't always as simple as just inviting over some friends. Not everyone has a local club and so GW can be the only answer.

I know how difficult it can be to find a club and while there are a lot in the cities, in the more rural areas there are very few. I live far from any major towns or cities and finding a club was very hard. I found one in the end but I have found that aside from knowing someone already in the club it can be difficult to find as there aren't very many ways for a club to let people know it exists.

Clubs are thin on the ground in rural areas. Everything is thin on the ground in rural areas, that's part of what defines them as rural. GW shops are even thinner on the ground in rural areas than clubs.

If you actually live in a small hamlet of a few hundred people, miles from the nearest village or town, you still have the ability to make your own club, completely separate from GW. Obviously it's going to be harder than in some place with more population -- that's the reality of the situation.

It's much easier nowadays for clubs to organise and recruit than ever before. A club can make a page on Facebook or Yahoo Groups for free.

My experiences have been very different. I don't live in a very rural area (my town isn't small but it's a good distance away from any cities or large towns), and there are 3 GW stores close enough to game at. On the other hand there is only 1 club nearby and that is still a good distance away. The club is open at specific times in the evening, which can be difficult given the time taken to get there. GWs are open all the time and so I can turn up whenever I have time to make the journey. It is much more practical to play at GW shops but I don't only play GW games so I have to make the extra journey.

While I don't mind traveling I can understand why people would find it easier to go to a GW store where everything is ready for them and there is a high chance of getting a pickup game.

4M2A wrote:My experiences have been very different. I don't live in a very rural area (my town isn't small but it's a good distance away from any cities or large towns), and there are 3 GW stores close enough to game at. On the other hand there is only 1 club nearby and that is still a good distance away. The club is open at specific times in the evening, which can be difficult given the time taken to get there. GWs are open all the time and so I can turn up whenever I have time to make the journey. It is much more practical to play at GW shops but I don't only play GW games so I have to make the extra journey.

While I don't mind traveling I can understand why people would find it easier to go to a GW store where everything is ready for them and there is a high chance of getting a pickup game.

Am I really weird. Isn't this what basements are for? I have played at stores, but by far the majority of games were played at peoples houses. Is that not the case everywhere?

There are a lot of even more good points here.
One thing though that needs to be underlined is that nobody is forcing people to buy GW brand paint (or GS, brushes or glue). Maybe there are consumers who as Swuk mentioned do an 'apple' on it and buy the GW baseball cap and T-Shirt aswell as one-of-everything on the shelves, but they only have themselves to blame. (Although I have to admit I too find the GW staff's hard sell in store and the toen of the site far too in-yer-face)

There are a lot of other modelling hobby supplies out there. Ppl need to take responsibility for that aspect themselves. There is choice in the market there.

As regards the core point of Delephont's question:

Delephont wrote:So how would gamers and companies find some common ground? How can we make the love affair balanced?

Have *our* own rules. Back in the day before Warhammer Citadel made D&D minis. If there was a universal rule system that GW (or any other corporation) didn't control that the main body of gamers played they would *eventually* be forced to adapt.

As is GW invented warhammer and 40k. And as a corporation they are similar in behaviour to say Fifa who prmote soccer & want you to believe it's the best thing ever; or the International Rugby Board wanting to sell Rugby Union as the best; etc etc. It's up to the customer to be savy.

I for one would definitely be interested in a universal game system (with free open source rules for generic fantasy & scifi armies - large & small) designed by gamers for the best gaming possible (rather than as a means to sell stuff). *Edit* One such system is War engine http://warengine.darktortoise.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

4M2A wrote:While I don't mind traveling I can understand why people would find it easier to go to a GW store where everything is ready for them and there is a high chance of getting a pickup game.

I can only take so much of going into GW, the staff are cool but some of the regulars annoy me, I think a lot of the time I would rather not play than have to spend time with some of these people, I actually think this is why the idea of having stores that provide gaming fail, they just seem to attract a different type of person that gaming clubs do...

That relies on you having friends in your area that play. From people comments on forums I think the wargaming hobby in the US isn't so closely linked to GW stores. It may not be the case in the UK but I am only talking from my experience. Most of the 40k / WHFB players I know outside of my club play in stores because they have the space, terrain and the chance to play new people.

Besides i've never met anyone with a basement

Mate of mine had a basement, was pretty cool for gaming actually, then we all discovered women and drink

itsonlyme wrote:Mate of mine had a basement, was pretty cool for gaming actually, then we all discovered women and drink

Isn't that why basements have those convenient reinforcement poles!

Besides i've never met anyone with a basement

Really, basements are pretty standard in the US. Where do all the mopey teenagers live then? Almost every kid I knew lived in his basement so they could have as little interaction to their parents as possible, and maybe visa versa.

I do not believe that GW is a game company. While GW may have stated out a a games company that required the use of minitues, however it is now miniature company that makes a game to provide a use/ reason to (continuing) buy the figures that they produce.

To support my argument I think you need to understand GW and its relationship with it’s customers, and must first know a little about GW’s history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop

Games Workshop originally came from White Dwarf, a game review magazine that accepted outside advertisements and reviewed 3rd party games. In the pages of White Dwarf, the editors/writers eventually made up their own rules/games. These proved very popular and were then published on their own. In 1984 GW is born; a game company. Citadel Miniatures at the time was an independent company that produce sci-fi and fantasy figures, and they just happened to also produce figures that were for/compatible with GW games. The GW games had great writing/background/fluff and good rules and thus proved very popular. So popular, that Citadel Miniatures found that the figures they made for GW games were composing more and more of their sales. During the mid 90s, GW bought Citadel Miniatures so that it could better control the miniatures used in its games. With the quality of the miniatures and games improving, and White Dwarf devoting itself solely to GW games (but still having the quality writing that made GW a success in the first place) it was a golden age for GW. As the 90’s drew to a close, and GW’s profits rose, they had the finical means to make the investment to improve their plastic casting process. While plastic casting had a much larger initial investment required than metal, long term it could produce better products en mass much cheaper. As the range of plastic kits/figures grew, so did the customers collections. Newer editions of their core games were written to utilize the larger collection of figures. Unfortunately, these newer rules were less concise, upsetting older players. So in early 2000 and continuing through the decade, the quality of the plastic miniatures kept improving but the quality of the games were declining. Remember that the company founded and run my fans in the 80s and early 90s became a publicly traded corporation in 1994 and thus investor profits and dividends were now more important that producing a quality product that would be love by its fans. This shift in company philosophy is what changed GW from a games company to a model/figure company.

GW has existed in some form or another for over 30 years, and has created quite a large fan base. This large fan base has fuels the rise of outside companies using GW IP to make other games, videogames, literature, and movies. As these other companies continue to make quality products with the IP, and Games Workshop themselves not, I wonder how long until the IP is worth more than GW and they are bought out and dismantled or overhauled.

Andrew1975 wrote:

4M2A wrote:My experiences have been very different. I don't live in a very rural area (my town isn't small but it's a good distance away from any cities or large towns), and there are 3 GW stores close enough to game at. On the other hand there is only 1 club nearby and that is still a good distance away. The club is open at specific times in the evening, which can be difficult given the time taken to get there. GWs are open all the time and so I can turn up whenever I have time to make the journey. It is much more practical to play at GW shops but I don't only play GW games so I have to make the extra journey.

While I don't mind traveling I can understand why people would find it easier to go to a GW store where everything is ready for them and there is a high chance of getting a pickup game.

Am I really weird. Isn't this what basements are for? I have played at stores, but by far the majority of games were played at peoples houses. Is that not the case everywhere?

This is where the split happens, IMO.

When I started playing wargames all gaming occurred in people's homes or at clubs organised at church halls, community centres or pub function rooms. If there was gaming in shops it was in a storeroom behind, not for the general public.

GW appear to have pioneered the idea of going to a shop to play games on tables in the middle of the shop floor. Their system is based on the idea of total dependence on GW. You go to a GW shop to buy rules, models, terrain pieces, and the stuff you need to assemble and paint everything. You go to the shop to learn how to paint your stuff. You go to the shop find gaming partners and play games. There isn't any world outside GW. That's why I call it the HHHobby.

Viewed differently, GW is a convenient one-stop shop where you can get everything easily. (For a high price, as long as you want only GW stuff.)

I feel that a lot of younger players have grown up totally dependent on GW. Naturally they have a strong emotional bond to the company.

It's so much easier now to advertise and communicate with the Internet, yet people seem to be more gloomy and hopeless about their ability to use that chance to do stuff.

So that is why all GW's money goes into their shops.

In my view there are broadly speaking three groups of GW customers.

The first and largest group is the newbies. Their experience of wargaming is GW. They are wrapped up in the HHHobby and it fully satisfies them for a few years. These people are strongly emotionally attached to GW and have a love-love relationship with them.

The second group, probably the smallest, is people who, thanks to age, different experience, and/or luck, did not come to wargaming through GW, or have moved away from GW. These people don’t have any emotional relationship with GW. They regard GW merely as one among a wide range of wargaming options. If they criticise GW it is because they want GW to do better stuff for them.

The third group is people who have transitioned out of group one but have not reached the experience level of group two. These people are still kind of in love with GW but they have realised that GW doesn’t actually love them. Their emotional attachment is therefore compromised. A lot of this group will presumably migrate into group two in time.

I posted this on another thread, but it is relevant here too...

Like with all theories… we try to explain ONE that describes everything for everybody.

And to illustrate our theory, we draw conclusions from the two extreme ends… only.

When I first got introduced to GW in Australia during the mid-1980s, there were over 200 locals listed in UKWD (for Australia) as selling the product, numerous wargaming clubs, and thousands of veteran wargamers (having grown up with Airfix et al, Micro Armour et al, Battle Tech et al, and others through D&D et al).

With not one GW staff member, let alone a shop, in sight.

We, the veterans introduced our friends, our family, our children, and a few strangers to the GW world.

We, the veterans, created and built the GW following in Australia.

We, the veterans, created the thriving market in Australia.

GW saw the money, and moved in with their shops… now numbering 34, while the original 200+ were reduced to 42, because, while GW were building their retail empire, around 160 shops closed down… their reward from GW “helping and investing” in the local GW gaming world.

Although there are now around 140 locals listed in WD… that’s only 100 new shops, because they cannot compete with GW retail strategy (selling at GWUK factory cost not GWAU wholesale cost).

The United States is a similar story, however, the UK is not… the UK always had a GW shop and/or factory presence to influence the market and therefore sales.

It is true that the enticement of noobs, at the GW shop or even through the locals or at the clubs, is good tactics to create a never ending supply (loose description) of future customers.

But, if these players become veterans who could introduce the game to others, pyramid style expansion, and they are treated like the current veterans are treated… well, the numbers show the way of the future for GW plc… reduced sales volume (the profits mean nothing on the customers level, because they only increase with the price rises, and not even proportionally).

This will lead to higher prices, which will generate fewer sales volume, which will lead to higher prices to keep the same (more or less) profit as previous years, which will generate fewer sales volume…. Get the drift here?

At a certain point… soon… the income will be less than the outgoings.

This will lead to closure of GW shops… they are already aiming for one man shops, what’s cheaper than that?

GW has only one choice to remain on top – change to a modern business plan for the future… introduce fair prices across the globe, use the internet (no, really USE it), mix print with epub productions, really really support the existing customers, and listen to the vets.

No, you can’t please everybody all the time, however, you can do things right… which will make more sales volume, hence more profits… and if the price rises now and again, GW will be supported with pleasure.

And, for reference, I still buy WD... my first one was #124.

I have bought into three GW systems, spending over A$25,000 in almost 25years. I do not overly gripe at the price or the rules... I believe I have a large stake in GW position in Australia... I should be of some importance to them, like many others... but not so.

Like religion (I believe in god, just not the business of religion)... I believe in Warhammer 40K, just not the current GW business.

Mik

Delephont wrote:So, what is it about this hobby that we feel we need this constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase? Why do we feel that as hobbyist we deserve an active hand in our chosen games development?

This is true of many, many industries. Look at the automotive industry, for example. Just about every car on the market gives bit-by-bit glimpses, reviews, and previews of next year's models in advance. Some car companies go to GREAT lengths to keep any development steps, pics, design, performance, etc. completely secret. Take the new redesign of the Corvette from a couple years ago as a prime example. Chevy designers kept that thing so under lock and key it was like some government cover-up. They even closed off the testing road course in Germany (the famous one, don't remember the name). There are huge Corvette owner clubs and many lifelong Corvette owners in clubs were specially invited by the 'Vette r&d team to come road trip to the unveiling. There was a whole show about it a few years back.

Look at the HUGE marketing for PC/console gaming. Some game companies release tidbits of new games YEARS before release. Talk about nurturing hands. Like a bunch of baby robins, we wait for Momma Blizzard to shove new expansion/patch information into our beaks.

These two phenomenon are not unique to the miniatures wargaming hobby.

Delephont wrote:Why don't we treat buying a game like we would buying any other item? an air-rifle, a fishing rod, a go-kart?... but our constant need to be pampered to by our favorite gaming companies goes way beyond that!

This is a bit of a biased example. Those items you mentioned are very, very different industries. Fishing is much bigger than wargaming, but air-rifles and go-karts are not even remotely similar. While the fishing industry and all the components that make it up are very much marketing-driven, it's not the same. I would wager, however, that some outdoor sports magazines or shows do have pre-release product reviews and announcements, and I am fairly certain there are some avid anglers hanging on every little morsel of information about them.

I once had a friend who was a professional go-kart racer. I'm certain that they have some sort of media dedicated to their sport and the go-karts that make it. I would bet that those involved with that industry are also pretty eager to see and hear about new innovations and new product.




Ghidorah

Delephont wrote:So, what is it about this hobby that we feel we need this constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase? Why do we feel that as hobbyist we deserve an active hand in our chosen games development? Don't get me wrong, I know the power of market research, but it seems (the internet community at least) the community wants more, and we get disgruntled when it doesn't happen.

I don't really want to be rude, but it doesn't sound like you're approaching trying to understand people who are critical of GW very sincerely. The emotive way you keep repeatedly phrasing your questions kinda makes it feel like all you really want to ask is, "Why does everyone who disagrees with me suck so much?" It sounds like you've already made up your mind about things, but are asking the question so as to avoid sounding like you're just calling out everyone who doesn't share your opinion.

I don't feel I need any "constant nurturing hand from the company whose game we purchase". I'd be totally happy with consistently good miniatures at reasonable prices.

But GW has created the expectation they will be more than just a product seller themselves. They refer to their product as "The Games Workshop Hobby". They produce rules, they produce equipment, they sponsor tournaments, they produce tutorials (battle reports and painting master classes). They have even made attempts to cultivate a spirit of sportsmanship in how people play their games. So in essence, they have taken responsibility for not just making the product, but in influencing how it is used.

Personally, I don't expect GW do all of those things. But for GW to discontinue any of those things while raising prices means that GW is trying to sell me a weaker customer experience at a higher price. And that is unacceptable for me.

Now this is an entirely different issue from their news and rumors clampdown. Every successful company in the internet age promotes their new products to the public ahead of release. Video games promote months in advance, and often you can even demo a game before you commit to buying it. Most games in development have regular press releases on the state of their progress, usually with key developers offering insight into their thought process. Some developers become so good at courting the public this way that they can attain a bit of celebrity, like say, Raph Koster did. So when people call on GW to promote their new products, they aren't looking for nurturing. They're looking for GW to provide the basic service that nearly every modern company that makes products for entertainment does. Telling the public what products are in development is just something we expect from companies these days, like how we expect their products to not contain edible lead or to break with their first use. Now, you're free to disagree that this kind of pre-release promotion is necessary, but portraying people who want it as though they are somehow in need of constant nurturing is at best dishonest, and at worst trolling.

JOHIRA wrote:...GW has created the expectation they will be more than just a product seller themselves. They refer to their product as "The Games Workshop Hobby". They produce rules, they produce equipment, they sponsor tournaments, they produce tutorials (battle reports and painting master classes). They have even made attempts to cultivate a spirit of sportsmanship in how people play their games. So in essence, they have taken responsibility for not just making the product, but in influencing how it is used.

*BOOM* Truth.

JOHIRA wrote:Personally, I don't expect GW do all of those things. But for GW to discontinue any of those things while raising prices means that GW is trying to sell me a weaker customer experience at a higher price. And that is unacceptable for me.

*SONIC BOOM* Truthier.




Ghidorah

JOHIRA wrote:I don't really want to be rude, but it doesn't sound like you're approaching trying to understand people who are critical of GW very sincerely. The emotive way you keep repeatedly phrasing your questions kinda makes it feel like all you really want to ask is, "Why does everyone who disagrees with me suck so much?" It sounds like you've already made up your mind about things, but are asking the question so as to avoid sounding like you're just calling out everyone who doesn't share your opinion.

Now, you're free to disagree that this kind of pre-release promotion is necessary, but portraying people who want it as though they are somehow in need of constant nurturing is at best dishonest, and at worst trolling.

I also don't want to be rude, so please try to take my comments as I intend to come across (civilised), and can I urge you to contact me privately if any comment I make now offends you, rather than derail this thread.

I can see from your statement that you have done me the honour of reading the first post (my post) in this thread, but it also clear that you have skipped all the other comments that have been made since. I will admit, the dicussion got off to a bumpy start, and I'll take it on the chin that most likely my phrasing and the use of certain words were the cause of the initial mis-communication.

This has been discussed, and I have offered my apologies for that, as I want to generate a worth while discussion and thread, not start a flame war.

Your statements above only serve to re-ignite that misunderstanding, and the only reason that could happen is if 1. you're trolling or 2. you haven't read the thread fully. I don't belive you are a troll, and you most likely feel your comments are sound, so please go back and read the thread before commenting, we can avoid much stress that way.

I'd also like to add, that I made it VERY clear (see the bold text in my original post) that this discussion was never intended to be soley about GW. I'm not stupid, I realise that GW will come up in this discussion as it has done, but please do not accuse me of defending GW or its stance. If you can't read (or be bothered to read) bold text, and take that text as it was intended, then I'm sorry, but that is not my fault.

I hope that this post can lay the issue to rest!

Jack is your avatar. Therefore, I motion to dismiss this disagreement without question.




Ghidorah