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I was in a tournament this weekend, I play Deamons and out of 10 people at the tournament there were 3 GK players UGH! but anyway I did good I tabled my first 2 opponents then I played a internet list GK player razorback spam, 3 riffle dreads, crow and purifiers with the inquisitor chick, vindicar and 1 group of jump troops. So here is my question I got my bad half in the first but I did have one banner in that half in my bloodcrushers.

So first question, his assassin shoots tells me it will do 2 wounds if it wounds I say ok, he hits and wounds my bloodcrusher squad I say I am going to take it on a regular one, and pick up my dice and roll, I do not save I remove the model, he then states oh I was shooting at the banner one, I say ok then I should get a re-roll you could not even see that one (behind a wall and had no line of site at all) so I re-roll and save he calls the GM over and complains I tell him what is going on the GM sides with him ok I remove the model, was this correct how it was played out? I dont think he can tell me after I rolled my save what model he was shooting at can he?

Second question, I don’t own a rule book but can hammer hands stack from a purifier unit and from the chick inquisitor?

Third question, Don’t I get re-rolls to hit crow when I charge him?

Four question, Can a jump troop cast warp quake and then shunt 30 inches and form a conga line spread 2 inches apart so it takes up a line on the board that I cannot land within 12 inches off?

Dr_Chin wrote:I was in a tournament this weekend, I play Deamons and out of 10 people at the tournament there were 3 GK players UGH! but anyway I did good I tabled my first 2 opponents then I played a internet list GK player razorback spam, 3 riffle dreads, crow and purifiers with the inquisitor chick, vindicar and 1 group of jump troops. So here is my question I got my bad half in the first but I did have one banner in that half in my bloodcrushers.

So first question, his assassin shoots tells me it will do 2 wounds if it wounds I say ok, he hits and wounds my bloodcrusher squad I say I am going to take it on a regular one, and pick up my dice and roll, I do not save I remove the model, he then states oh I was shooting at the banner one, I say ok then I should get a re-roll you could not even see that one (behind a wall and had no line of site at all) so I re-roll and save he calls the GM over and complains I tell him what is going on the GM sides with him ok I remove the model, was this correct how it was played out? I dont think he can tell me after I rolled my save what model he was shooting at can he?

He gets to choose where to allocate the wound in your unit, and he does have a special type of ammo that will let him cause two wounds. I'm confused about where you get a reroll from, though I'm not hip on all the Chaos Daemon rules, so if it's there, then disregard me.

Second question, I don’t own a rule book but can hammer hands stack from a purifier unit and from the chick inquisitor?

For better or worse, yes, it does.

Third question, Don’t I get re-rolls to hit crow when I charge him?

You get furious charge and preferred enemy.

Four question, Can a jump troop cast warp quake and then shunt 30 inches and form a conga line spread 2 inches apart so it takes up a line on the board that I cannot land within 12 inches off?

This I'm actually not 100% sure about. I though that warp quake happened after movement, but I can't recall for sure. Hopefully Nos or someone with a more photographic memory will jump on to correct me if I'm mistaken.

Dr_Chin wrote:

So first question, his assassin shoots tells me it will do 2 wounds if it wounds I say ok, he hits and wounds my bloodcrusher squad I say I am going to take it on a regular one, and pick up my dice and roll, I do not save I remove the model, he then states oh I was shooting at the banner one, I say ok then I should get a re-roll you could not even see that one (behind a wall and had no line of site at all) so I re-roll and save he calls the GM over and complains I tell him what is going on the GM sides with him ok I remove the model, was this correct how it was played out? I dont think he can tell me after I rolled my save what model he was shooting at can he?

The Vindicare rules let him allocate the wound. A cover save would only apply if 50% of the unit was in cover. You're opponent and the GM where correct.

Second question, I don’t own a rule book but can hammer hands stack from a purifier unit and from the chick inquisitor?

Yes, hammerhand stacks.

Third question, Don’t I get re-rolls to hit crow when I charge him?

I think you just get furious charge, but I'd need to double check.

Four question, Can a jump troop cast warp quake and then shunt 30 inches and form a conga line spread 2 inches apart so it takes up a line on the board that I cannot land within 12 inches off?

Sounds legal to me. Would just need to check what phase warp quake kicks in.

Dr_Chin wrote:I was in a tournament this weekend, I play Deamons and out of 10 people at the tournament there were 3 GK players UGH! but anyway I did good I tabled my first 2 opponents then I played a internet list GK player razorback spam, 3 riffle dreads, crow and purifiers with the inquisitor chick, vindicar and 1 group of jump troops. So here is my question I got my bad half in the first but I did have one banner in that half in my bloodcrushers.

So first question, his assassin shoots tells me it will do 2 wounds if it wounds I say ok, he hits and wounds my bloodcrusher squad I say I am going to take it on a regular one, and pick up my dice and roll, I do not save I remove the model, he then states oh I was shooting at the banner one, I say ok then I should get a re-roll you could not even see that one (behind a wall and had no line of site at all) so I re-roll and save he calls the GM over and complains I tell him what is going on the GM sides with him ok I remove the model, was this correct how it was played out? I dont think he can tell me after I rolled my save what model he was shooting at can he?

Two things: If you are trying to claim that the banner gets a cover save, but the original guy didn't, then you are wrong. Either the entire unit has a cover save, or nobody does. It doesn't matter if the assassin targets someone he can't see, if he can see a majority without obstruction. I'm not sure why you rerolled.

However, he should have designated the target as he was rolling to wound. Without being there I have no idea what happened, but if he never mentioned to banner until after he was completed and allowed you to save, then that was his fault.

Second question, I don’t own a rule book but can hammer hands stack from a purifier unit and from the chick inquisitor?

Yes. This is covered in the rulebook FAQ.

Third question, Don’t I get re-rolls to hit crow when I charge him?

Yes (and Furious Charge). Next time ask to see his codex if you want to be sure on something.

Four question, Can a jump troop cast warp quake and then shunt 30 inches and form a conga line spread 2 inches apart so it takes up a line on the board that I cannot land within 12 inches off?

Yes. Interceptors have Warp Quake, and it only cases about where they are when the deep striking occurs.

daedalus wrote:

Dr_Chin wrote:I was in a tournament this weekend, I play Deamons and out of 10 people at the tournament there were 3 GK players UGH! but anyway I did good I tabled my first 2 opponents then I played a internet list GK player razorback spam, 3 riffle dreads, crow and purifiers with the inquisitor chick, vindicar and 1 group of jump troops. So here is my question I got my bad half in the first but I did have one banner in that half in my bloodcrushers.

So first question, his assassin shoots tells me it will do 2 wounds if it wounds I say ok, he hits and wounds my bloodcrusher squad I say I am going to take it on a regular one, and pick up my dice and roll, I do not save I remove the model, he then states oh I was shooting at the banner one, I say ok then I should get a re-roll you could not even see that one (behind a wall and had no line of site at all) so I re-roll and save he calls the GM over and complains I tell him what is going on the GM sides with him ok I remove the model, was this correct how it was played out? I dont think he can tell me after I rolled my save what model he was shooting at can he?

He gets to choose where to allocate the wound in your unit, and he does have a special type of ammo that will let him cause two wounds. I'm confused about where you get a reroll from, though I'm not hip on all the Chaos Daemon rules, so if it's there, then disregard me.

My question is the timing of which he chose the target, can he choose after I already rolled and failed my save?

daedalus wrote:

Dr_Chin wrote:
Second question, I don’t own a rule book but can hammer hands stack from a purifier unit and from the chick inquisitor?

Yes, hammerhand stacks.

Does she even have hammer hands?

Dr_Chin wrote:
My question is the timing of which he chose the target, can he choose after I already rolled and failed my save?

Well, no, he chooses where to allocate the wound. You can't fail the wound and THEN allocate it.

Dr_Chin wrote:

Does she even have hammer hands?

Good question. Not entirely sure. If you're referring to Valeria, then no, she doesn't appear to have any psyker powers, however, if it's a generic Inquisitor, then he or she could well have access to it.

EDIT: Fixed the quote.

daedalus wrote:

Dr_Chin wrote:
My question is the timing of which he chose the target, can he choose after I already rolled and failed my save?

Well, no, he chooses where to allocate the wound. You can't fail the wound and THEN allocate it.


Ok this is what I thought, that was the argument.

Dr_Chin wrote:
Yes, hammerhand stacks.

Does she even have hammer hands?

Good question. Not entirely sure. If you're referring to Valeria, then no, she doesn't appear to have any psyker powers, however, if it's a generic Inquisitor, then he or she could well have access to it.

Of course they can do so. As long as they remain in coherency they can move how they wish.

The vindicare can choose where the wound is allocated, i.e. which group the wound(s) gets allocated to. If the GK player forgets to do so, you are then free to allocate the wound how you wish, and they cannot go back and change that allocation.

Strictly speaking he forgot to use an ability, and has no right to change your allocation. However its such an...obvious abilty i can understand why the TO sided with him. Additionally it doesnt *really* make a difference whether you allocate before or after your save, as it is only a single model getting hit - assuming they all have the same armour / invulnerable / cover save available whcih model it is allocated to doesnt make a difference as to your chances of succeeding on your save.

Finally, see the BRB FAQ which states that psychic powers stack unless otherwise stated. So hammerhand plus hammerhand is indeed +2S

nosferatu1001 wrote:Of course they can do so. As long as they remain in coherency they can move how they wish.

...

Finally, see the BRB FAQ which states that psychic powers stack unless otherwise stated. So hammerhand plus hammerhand is indeed +2S

I guess the shunt was a dick move, by not moving his units the full 30 inches and just spread out the unit 2 inches in a line it took like most of the board away from me for jumping See Attachment.

The question was does she have hammer hands?

You cast Warp Quake at the start of the movement phase. 12" from wherever a model in the unit is when the end their move is a warp quake.


A shunt move is just a 30" jump infantry move. There are no restrictions on how that move is made. yes they can sting their models out 2".





Valeria is the only inquisitor that can get a 4++ save. She does NOT have hammerhand or any psychic powers. She does have some other abilities/equipment like a poke-ball and a gravity gun.


A bit off topic:
In all honestly, If the guy was using Valeria and Interceptors in a Crowe Purifier list, it was Not Really a Netlist.

DR Chin - not really. Its a competitive tournament and the player was using a very effective Area Denial strategy. You are never compelled to move the full 30", or that matter any inches, when moving - it is ALWAYS "up to" X".

Hammerhand. Not "hands". And assuming it was Valeria, then no Valeria does not have any psychic powers. Again, when someone is doing somethuing funky, ask to see their codex and get them to show you the rule. If they wont do so, get the TO over.

See the problem is I did not know he was doing something untill the drive home, I drove a few people and 2 of them play the new GK's and I was telling them what happened, they also said that A: he should have allocated first before I rolled my save or even before he shot. B: They did not have their codex but that the she did not have hammer hands C: He should have told me about Crow and the re-roll (I did explane about eveything in my list) D: that they where not sure about the shunt move.

A: Before you rolled your save, not before he shot.
B: She doesn't.
C: He should have.
D: That was entirely legal and very smart.

So that is what I need to know, thank you.

And for A, as I explained - as long as all saves / etc were identical, deciding after you take your saves made no difference to the odds of you passing your save in the first place. Functionally it makes no difference.

WHile the shunt move for ceptors is very smart its not the mark of someone who wants to actually play a game when playing against daemons. With two units of them you can essentially make 90% of the board off limits to the daemon player.

Dr_Chin wrote:B: They did not have their codex

They were playing at the top table in a Tournament and they did not have a codex?

Usually Codex+Rulebook+FAQ/errata is Required for entering a tournament.

svendrex wrote:

Dr_Chin wrote:B: They did not have their codex

They were playing at the top table in a Tournament and they did not have a codex?

Usually Codex+Rulebook+FAQ/errata is Required for entering a tournament.

No one was playing orks and the other CSM yesterday, if they did play GK's 5 out of 10 people would have been playing GK's

The only thing that sounds like it was improperly done was Valeria casting Hammerhand as she is not a psyker. I would imagine he was just using the female Hereticus inquisitor model and gave her Hammerhand + Rad Grenades, which is a solid addition to a Crowe + Purifier list. Hammerhand does stack, so if this was the case it was legit, but if it was Valeria then he messed up.

Using the Shunt move and Warp Quake in that way was tactically genius, and I wouldn't have thought of it in a game like that. Your opponent is to be commended for thinking outside the box on that one.

The Vindicare snipes specific models with an AP1 Rending weapon that can cause 2 wounds or ignore invulnerable saves, and so if you have special models in a unit that grant the entire unit an ability, it would be wise to focus fire on the Vindicare early in the game to avoid getting sniped. It doesn't matter if he can see the model he chooses, because all that is required is that he can see one model in the unit. He technically should have allocated the wound before you rolled the save, but it barely matters. The long and short of it is that you failed the save, and he obviously would have picked the model in the unit that has special gear. He gains no tactical advantage from knowing if you passed or failed the save before allocating the wound, because on the one hand you pass, and nothing happens, and on the other hand a model dies and he can choose which one. This is one of the reasons that having a decent amount of ranged firepower in any list is a good idea.

I thought the new Vindicare does not ignore invulnerable saves, he removes invulnerable saves granted by wargear with the shieldbreaker round.

The new GK can be tough for a Daemons list.

That is correct. Which is why the OP still had a save to roll

calypso2ts wrote:I thought the new Vindicare does not ignore invulnerable saves, he removes invulnerable saves granted by wargear with the shieldbreaker round.

The new GK can be tough for a Daemons list.

Technically, the Shieldbreaker gives him the ability to ignore invulnerable saves, as they lose their save immediately when the wound is allocated, assuming of course it is granted by wargear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strictly speaking he forgot to use an ability, and has no right to change your allocation. However its such an...obvious abilty i can understand why the TO sided with him. Additionally it doesnt *really* make a difference whether you allocate before or after your save, as it is only a single model getting hit - assuming they all have the same armour / invulnerable / cover save available whcih model it is allocated to doesnt make a difference as to your chances of succeeding on your save.

I agree with the first bit about the TO, and honestly if it was my opponent I would let them take it back for the same reason.

However, I'd like to point out that if it was a cover save, it very well could make a difference, as someone could probably be willing to go to ground for an important model if the unit in question is otherwise expendable (which might be the case for Bloodletters depending on the circumstances). If he had rolled a 3 and said "well I would've gone to ground then", what would you say? Reroll or take the original roll?

Where did the save against the shieldbreaker come from ( i know nothing about the bloodcrusher ) ? The exitus is an AP 1 weapon.

I don’t think it was a shieldbreaker shot it was a for each wound it does 2 so Bloodcrushers have 2 wounds so if it wounded it is dead, the discussion comes from when he stated what model he was targeting, which was after I announced what model I was taking the wound on and picked up my dice and rolled and failed to save the wound. I did not think that was the correct sequence that it should have happened but the TO agreed with him. So I got a bit pissy, well there were other things going on that kind of got me pissy also.

The opponent apparently did the Turbopenetrator Round (2 wounds). Either way, all Daemons have invulnerable saves that are not provided by wargear.

Pedro - all daemons have an invulnerable save.

Dr_chin - except, as was pointed out - it makes no difference to your dice roll. there was only one save to make,the save was an identical save (5++) to everyone else, and so on.

Dr_Chin wrote:..., the discussion comes from when he stated what model he was targeting, which was after I announced what model I was taking the wound on and picked up my dice and rolled and failed to save the wound. I did not think that was the correct sequence that it should have happened but the TO agreed with him. So I got a bit pissy, well there were other things going on that kind of got me pissy also.

The only thing that your opponent did wrong, the way you tell the story, is that he did not specify that he was targeting the banner crusher before you rolled saves for a model you selected. However as you were not aware of the rules for the Vindicare, it is entirely possible he just pointed out the banner crusher as his target, and you assumed he was shooting at the unit. Or you were too quick with starting with saving throws not waiting for him to select the model, which is understandable as you did not know its rules.

All of these are a combination of you being unfamiliar with its rules and your opponent not spelling out everything. I can certainly see the TO point of view in this case as let's be honest, knowing the rules for the Vindicare everyone knows it will be used to snipe off an important model.

You being pissy seems to be more about being unlucky (bad wave first) and your opponent capitalizing fully on it by using warp quake very effectively. Most of the other points (stacking Hammerhand and assaulting Crowe) are due to lack of information (can be both your and your opponents fault). The female inquisitor model could have been Valeria (in which case he certainly did not have a net list) or a regular inquisitor with a female model (more likely), charging crowe gives the unit rerolls and furious charge and he should have mentioned that.

However in my experience, with the GK codex being still rather new, many players still forget some of the rules their models have. It is always a good idea to take the time to walk through your and your opponents lists to make sure these kind of situations are avoided as much as possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Pedro - all daemons have an invulnerable save.

Dr_chin - except, as was pointed out - it makes no difference to your dice roll. there was only one save to make,the save was an identical save (5++) to everyone else, and so on.

Sure ok until it happens to another GK player when they lose a justicar or something that is needed after you make the roll and remove the model and go ugh I could have gone to ground if you told me you where shooting at that model, but too late! sorry, its not cool to do that or say your inquisitor had hammer hand when she did not, and not cool not informing me I could have had preferred enemy it’s like kicking a fat kid after you take his ice cream lol.

All I am saying is this guy was a d!ck for playing dirty against a deamon player when he is playing a spam GK list, he could have beat me fair and square he did not he had to use dirty tactics.

Please read the tenets on spelling and grammar, it would make your posts a little easier to read

As the poster said above - you could have mistaken him pointing to the banner crusher as designating the unit.

Now at least you know what the most infamous sniper in the game can do. Hes also slightly worse in some ways now, as he cannot snipe models out of combat any longer....

The inq may have had hammer hand, you didnt seem clear on exactly what the inquisitor was or is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please read the tenets on spelling and grammar, it would make your posts a little easier to read

As the poster said above - you could have mistaken him pointing to the banner crusher as designating the unit.

Now at least you know what the most infamous sniper in the game can do. Hes also slightly worse in some ways now, as he cannot snipe models out of combat any longer....

The inq may have had hammer hand, you didnt seem clear on exactly what the inquisitor was or is.

I checked the GK codex she was the only inq with at 4+ inv save so it must have been her and I did not see any war gear that gives them 4+ so it had to have been her.

It was no mistake he even said I did not give him a chance to say who he was shooting at to the TO after I stated who I was taking it on pick up the dice from the table and rolled it and took the model off the table, if he cannot open his mouth in that amount of time sorry not my problem.

Well yes it is your problem, and the TO ruled correctly.

It made ABSOLUTELY no functional difference to yoru dice roll. ABsolutely none whatsoever.

Know thy enemy is useful, isnt it?