KFF, Killa kan wall question? (sorry)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**sickening**

Ok, so the new FAQ said

Q: What cover save does kustom force field give to a
vehicle within 6" of it? (p35)
A: 4+. Note that for a squadron of vehicles only those
within 6” of the custom force filed will count as
obscured.

The main rule book on page 64 under squadron of vehicles said
"the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

the page 22 under units partially in cover said
"If have or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves."

Now with that all said, if I have two kans within 6 inch of a KFF will the third also get a 4+ based on the main rule book rules?

**kmdl1066**

Yes.

And it doesn't even have to turn into an 8,000 page thread about whether it is 4+ or 5+ anymore.

Edit: Also, if only one of the Kans were within 6" of the Big Mek, the squadron will still get a 5+ save for being a unit within 6" of the Big Mek.

**Jidmah**

"At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted[...] need to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover. in this case the the vehicle is said to be obscured('hull down')"(BRB pg. 62)

Being obscured and being in cover is essentially the same, so if two out of three vehicles are obscured, all kans would have a 4+ cover save.

Also not that in WH40k units never have mixed cover saves.

**DeathReaper**

kmdl1066 wrote:Yes.

And it doesn't even have to turn into an 8,000 page thread about whether it is 4+ or 5+ anymore.

Vehicle squadrons take cover saves exactly like any other unit, if 50% or more are in cover the whole unit can claim the cover save.

and we all knew RaI was 4+, but RaW reads as a 5+.

**sickening**

Cool, that is the way I always played it so nothing has changes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
kmdl1066 wrote:Yes.

And it doesn't even have to turn into an 8,000 page thread about whether it is 4+ or 5+ anymore.

Vehicle squadrons take cover saves exactly like any other unit, if 50% or more are in cover the whole unit can claim the cover save.

and we all knew RaI was 4+, but RaW reads as a 5+.

ahhh Ninja! and this is why I stared the post.

**Biotox**

I believe it works like this: If 50% of the unit is in 6" of the KFF, the unit gets the cover save based on page 22 and page 64. Since the KFF counts them as obscured.

In your example, you will need 2 of 3 kans in the 6" of KFF to get the 4+ cover.
That's how I would play it anyway.

**kmdl1066**

DeathReaper wrote:
kmdl1066 wrote:Yes.

And it doesn't even have to turn into an 8,000 page thread about whether it is 4+ or 5+ anymore.

Vehicle squadrons take cover saves exactly like any other unit, if 50% or more are in cover the whole unit can claim the cover save.

and we all knew RaI was 4+, but RaW reads as a 5+.

To me, and I would venture most people, the GW FAQ's are RAW. So RAI and RAW are now in glorious agreement on 4+

World peace is surely the next step. Oh wait, there's still that shock prow thing. And the special attacks thing. And the FNP vs other unsaved wounds thing. So carry on as normal dakka!

**CiaranAnnrach**

kmdl1066 wrote:Yes.

And it doesn't even have to turn into an 8,000 page thread about whether it is 4+ or 5+ anymore.

Edit: Also, if only one of the Kans were within 6" of the Big Mek, the squadron will still get a 5+ save for being a unit within 6" of the Big Mek.

Does it?

When I was reading the rulebook earlier, specifically the section regarding vehicles and cover, it outlined when a vehicle receives a cover save, and explicitly states that vehicle cover saves do not work the same way as non-vehicle cover saves. There were only two instances that I saw where the rule book gave a vehicle a cover save - if 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted is hidden by terrain or models, or if a special rule/piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured.

Special rules/wargear have to confer the obscured status to a vehicle in order for the vehicle to claim a cover save. Just conferring a cover save is not sufficient in and of itself.

**kmdl1066**

Hence the discussion of Kustom Force Field, a special rule/piece of wargear which confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured.

**Macok**

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
kmdl1066 wrote:[...]
Edit: Also, if only one of the Kans were within 6" of the Big Mek, the squadron will still get a 5+ save for being a unit within 6" of the Big Mek.

Does it?

When I was reading the rulebook earlier, specifically the section regarding vehicles and cover, it outlined when a vehicle receives a cover save, and explicitly states that vehicle cover saves do not work the same way as non-vehicle cover saves. There were only two instances that I saw where the rule book gave a vehicle a cover save - if 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted is hidden by terrain or models, or if a special rule/piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured.

Special rules/wargear have to confer the obscured status to a vehicle in order for the vehicle to claim a cover save. Just conferring a cover save is not sufficient in and of itself.

I guess it does. The whole unit gets 5+ cover when one model is in range. GW has a long tradition of ignoring the rule you just provided. Right now RAW seems to be that just cover save is enough for the vehicle to use it. Similarly with invulnerable save (they just work like cover saves work due to SW, without any rules in BRB). Obscured status seems to be just plain 4+ cover for vehicles and nothing more.

Now due to the new and clear FAQ it seems if more models of a vehicle squadron is in range of KFF then suddenly they get better cover saves.

**Orock**

This revelation will surely turn the polish tournament scene on its ear!

**nosferatu1001**

Ciiaran - sadly GW ignore thjose rules, and say that stormcaller and SoS, as well as Flickerfields, do actually work on vehicles.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Orock wrote:This revelation will surely turn the polish tournament scene on its ear!

That was my initial reaction as well, and I don't have anything to do with Poland whatsoever.

**CiaranAnnrach**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ciiaran - sadly GW ignore thjose rules, and say that stormcaller and SoS, as well as Flickerfields, do actually work on vehicles.

I did not know that. GW really should get their rules straight. At the very least you'd think they would errata that section.

**Corbett**

Not to start a rant, so please don't shoot me but the flickerfield at least, is a invuln not a coversave, I can't speak on the other two that were mentioned. Also I have to question the FAQ is answering questions about the dex, and it's always been that a armies Dex overrules the rulebook. I could easily see it that if 2 out of 3 kans are inside the 6" range those two would get the save while the third would not.

**CiaranAnnrach**

Corbett wrote:Not to start a rant, so please don't shoot me but the flickerfield at least, is a invuln not a coversave, I can't speak on the other two that were mentioned. Also I have to question the FAQ is answering questions about the dex, and it's always been that a armies Dex overrules the rulebook. I could easily see it that if 2 out of 3 kans are inside the 6" range those two would get the save while the third would not.

No, if 2 out of 3 are inside the 6" range, they all get the cover save. There's no doubt about that - it's part of the cover save rules for vehicle squadrons. The problem comes when only 1 of 3 is within 6" - do the other two get a 5+ save because of KFF's first ability which grants the save to units, or does that 5+ save only apply to non-vehicle units? It looks like the former, though I find it highly odd that a single item would grant multiple saves of the same type to the same unit.

**MasterSlowPoke**

I posted this argument in the main FAQ thread, maybe it will help convince you?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:A KFF does provides two functions:

1. It gives a cover save to units.
2. It grants the obscured status to models.

These two functions are not mutually exclusive.

The FAQ answer also clarified two things:

1. The obscured status granted by the KFF is indeed 4+.
2. Reiterated the fact that the obscured status is only granted to models, and not units, so only the models in range can receive it.

There is no problem with a unit having multiple cover saves (see the Astral Aim vs 3+ cover debate), and the best is always taken. Therefore, a vehicle within 6" will have a 4+ save, as the 5+ is redundant. Likewise, a unit of vehicles will need a majority within 6" (or otherwise be obscured in their own right) to be counted as having a 4+. Again, this is not in opposition to the 5+ the unit already has.

The key concept here is the delineation between models and units.

**nosferatu1001**

Corbett - and there are no general rules for HOW you take an invulnerable save on a vehicle. At least with cover saves we have a vague idea...

**CiaranAnnrach**

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I posted this argument in the main FAQ thread, maybe it will help convince you?

I'm familiar with your argument, and I don't need convincing of anything regarding the matter. I'll not be arguing the point with anyone who wants to play it that way. It does not change the fact that I find it odd that a single piece of wargear would provide two saves of the same type to a single model.

**doctorludo**

OK. I'm going to stick my neck out here.

I read this as follows:

In a squadron of 3 models, only those within 6" of the KFF will get a cover save.

So if one is out of KFF range, and the others are in KFF range, the one out of range gets no KFF save against any hits allocated on it.

As this FAQs the codex, I interpret this as an exception to the BRB. In this case, the exception being that cover saves are determined for individual models.

So what am I missing? Does no-one else see it this way?

**MasterSlowPoke**

Close.

Only those within 6" will count as obscured by it. Cover saves for squadrons work on majority, like all other units, so if two are in, all three will benefit from the 4+.

**doctorludo**

But in this case, the FAQ provides a codex-based exception to the "cover/obscured saves work for majority" rule.

Does no-one else read it this way?

I realise that FAQ is not RAW, but assuming so for the purpose of this discussion.

**nosferatu1001**

No, it does not override the rulebook: it simply specifies who is obscured. Y0ou still use the unit rules (as the squadron rules tell you to) to work out if the UNIT receives a cover save

**insaniak**

doctorludo wrote:But in this case, the FAQ provides a codex-based exception to the "cover/obscured saves work for majority" rule.

It's not providing an exception. It's clarifying that only the models in range are obscured... you can't claim that the entire squadron is obscured by having one model that is in range.

Determining from there if the squadron gets a cover save happens in the usual manner... if half the squadron is obscured, the squadron gets a cover save.

**ork_smash**

doctorludo wrote:OK. I'm going to stick my neck out here.

I read this as follows:

In a squadron of 3 models, only those within 6" of the KFF will get a cover save.

So if one is out of KFF range, and the others are in KFF range, the one out of range gets no KFF save against any hits allocated on it.

Your interpretation is unfortunately all wrong due to a simple error of misunderstanding.

Vehicles within 6" aren't granted a cover save. Vehicles within 6" are counted as obscured. And when over 50% of a vehicle squadron is obscured, the squadron recieves a 4+ cover save as per BRB. If 50% or less of the squadron is obscured the squadron recieves no cover save. plain and simple. (or so it ought to be.)

**KingCracker**

Oh hurray they finally FAQed that one eh? Its about damn time

**blaktoof**

ork_smash wrote:
doctorludo wrote:OK. I'm going to stick my neck out here.

I read this as follows:

In a squadron of 3 models, only those within 6" of the KFF will get a cover save.

So if one is out of KFF range, and the others are in KFF range, the one out of range gets no KFF save against any hits allocated on it.

Your interpretation is unfortunately all wrong due to a simple error of misunderstanding.

Vehicles within 6" aren't granted a cover save. Vehicles within 6" are counted as obscured. And when over 50% of a vehicle squadron is obscured, the squadron recieves a 4+ cover save as per BRB. If 50% or less of the squadron is obscured the squadron recieves no cover save. plain and simple. (or so it ought to be.)

except the faq speficially states models within the squadron but outside of 6" are not obscured. there is no listing of number of models that are obscured versus those that are not, if the vehicle model is not within 6" of the KFF it is not obscured regardless of the number of models that are as per the faq.

**cgmckenzie**

No, the restriction of 'not being inside 6"' is there because infantry gets the save even if only 1 model is in range. Obscured still works like every other vehicle in the game, so if 50% of the unit is obscured, the whole unit gets the save.

-cgmckenzie

**blaktoof**

I disagree with you and feel you are incorrect.

There is not actually a rule for vehicle squadrons getting cover in the brb, only for infantry units, the vehicle section goes on to state vehicles cannot get cover like infantry but can be obscured for hull down, so there is no "cover" for vehicles.

The FAQ does not state that the majority of a squadron has to be within 6" to count as obscured, it simply states any models in the squadron not within 6" do not get to be obscured from the kff.

Given that simple and plainly stated FAQ ruling there is no justification for claiming you can have models in a squadron getting a save for being obscured that are not within 6" of the kff. It specifically and plainly states models not within 6" do not get the obscured save.

**Orock**

blaktoof wrote:I disagree with you and feel you are incorrect.

There is not actually a rule for vehicle squadrons getting cover in the brb, only for infantry units, the vehicle section goes on to state vehicles cannot get cover like infantry but can be obscured for hull down, so there is no "cover" for vehicles.

The FAQ does not state that the majority of a squadron has to be within 6" to count as obscured, it simply states any models in the squadron not within 6" do not get to be obscured from the kff.

Given that simple and plainly stated FAQ ruling there is no justification for claiming you can have models in a squadron getting a save for being obscured that are not within 6" of the kff. It specifically and plainly states models not within 6" do not get the obscured save.

as an ork player I wish this wasent true, but it does say vehicle squads dont have a majority in or out for obscured, its on a vehicle by vehicle basis. We have been running it with only the ones actually inside the bubble gaining the benefit. As it is you can still effectively screen 4/6 kanz with it to march up the field. And the particularly nasty hits you can just assign to the ones outside the field. Its not crippling in any way.