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So, I was playing a game last week, and my opponent was dark elves (I was Ogres) and his general was on a dark Pegasus flying around with a reverse ward save, good armor save, and the crown of command. He general was basically there for tar pit units. I knew he wouldn't just leave his general out there with out having some protection. So, magic phase I cast the breaking bones gut magic spell which is 2D6 STR 2 hits no armor save. However, we had rolled terrain and there was a magic tower that gave +2 magic resistance. Normally this would add +2 to any ward save against spells. He and I were both with in the 6 inches of the tower so we both got magic resistance 2.

However, the reverse ward save doesn't have a value, therefore it was my thought he has to roll against my STR with no bonus to his ward save (so 2 or under), or he could opt to use the magic resistance 2 and get a 5+ ward save against it, however they should not stack.

I found nothing in the FAQ that covers this. So it was allowed for him to stack them (we rolled for it).

Thoughts?

Hmmm, well, his ward save would have been 2 or less, right? And MR 2 is a bonus to the ward save ("A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves..."), so makes it better. So wouldn't his WS have been "improved" to 4 or less?

MR has no effect on the Pendant....

I've seen "reverse ward save" all over the place, but have no idea what it actually means/is.

Verd_Warr wrote:Hmmm, well, his ward save would have been 2 or less, right? And MR 2 is a bonus to the ward save ("A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves..."), so makes it better. So wouldn't his WS have been "improved" to 4 or less?

Since the reverse ward save has no value, ie 5+, 4+. etc, I don't think magic resistance should help increase the save. MR will not increase the STR of my magic attack, which was STR 2. Otherwise, if it did, I should be rolling 3s to wound instead of 5s. The reverse ward save says the model that is wounded must roll equal to or under the STR of the attack. MR didn't increase my spell's STR to 4, therefore there should be no bonus. I would say that the DE player gets a choice, to use either the MR 2, or the reverse ward save.

Oh well, I am pretty sure next book they are nerfing the dark elves. No more reverse ward and no more Hydra. Hydra may not go away but it will most likely be nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:MR has no effect on the Pendant....

Can you find where it states this in the book, FAQ, or anything? We looked and found nothing.

Crom wrote:Can you find where it states this in the book, FAQ, or anything? We looked and found nothing.

It's on page 72 of the BRB where it describes what Magic Resistance does.

"A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells."

Reverse ward save does not equal ward save.

hamsterwheel wrote:

Crom wrote:Can you find where it states this in the book, FAQ, or anything? We looked and found nothing.

It's on page 72 of the BRB where it describes what Magic Resistance does.

"A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells."

Reverse ward save does not equal ward save.

Reverse ward save counts as a ward save, because you cannot use it in conjunction with regeneration right? I agree that MR should not be used with it, just for it being over powered anyway, but I cannot find anywhere that specifically says that the reverse ward save is not a ward save, or if it benefits from MR.

Pendant of Khaeleth = "Reverse ward save"

hamsterwheel wrote:

Crom wrote:Can you find where it states this in the book, FAQ, or anything? We looked and found nothing.

It's on page 72 of the BRB where it describes what Magic Resistance does.

"A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells."

Reverse ward save does not equal ward save.

Yes, the reverse ward save is in fact a ward save. It just has special rules as to how to roll it.

-Matt

I don't know what a reverse ward save is cuz I don't have DE. But if at some point it becomes a ward save just at a different value, then I assume it behaves in all ways like a ward.

Like, it doesn't matter if you got a ward through armor or an item or dodge or whatever. In the end it's all just a Ward as described in the BRB.

If it is entirely its own ability with its own rules and limitations, then I would say they aren't combined.

Here is the logical issues i have with the reverse ward save and MR. Since, the reserve ward save doesn't have a value to roll for save, say 3+, 4+, 5+ and so on, it shouldn't get the benefit of magic resistance. MR doesn't raise the STR of my attacks against the reverse ward save, and since it doesn't have a value, you always must roll equal or under the STR of the attack that hit you. It is a ward save in the fact that is always there and unmodifiable, but if the model gains a MR bonus from something it isn't raising the STR of my attack. Therefore, it should not get any bonuses.

I guess my argument is that there IS a value for the "reverse" ward save. It is variable, but set by the STR of the attack that triggers the save. The MR is a bonus to that, now known, ward save not to the attack STR.

Not contending that the RAW wording of the pendant backs that up very well, if at all. But I guess that wording is what caused this thread in the 1st place

Crom wrote:Here is the logical issues i have with the reverse ward save and MR. Since, the reserve ward save doesn't have a value to roll for save, say 3+, 4+, 5+ and so on, it shouldn't get the benefit of magic resistance. MR doesn't raise the STR of my attacks against the reverse ward save, and since it doesn't have a value, you always must roll equal or under the STR of the attack that hit you. It is a ward save in the fact that is always there and unmodifiable, but if the model gains a MR bonus from something it isn't raising the STR of my attack. Therefore, it should not get any bonuses.

Does the Model have a ward save?
If No, MR gives a ward save.
If Yes, the MR makes the ward save better.
Nothing in the rules state that MR only works with some ward saves but not others.

Does the pendant have a value for the ward save? Yes it does. The value is equal to the strength of the attack.
MR does what MR does. It improves ward saves.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Crom wrote:Here is the logical issues i have with the reverse ward save and MR. Since, the reserve ward save doesn't have a value to roll for save, say 3+, 4+, 5+ and so on, it shouldn't get the benefit of magic resistance. MR doesn't raise the STR of my attacks against the reverse ward save, and since it doesn't have a value, you always must roll equal or under the STR of the attack that hit you. It is a ward save in the fact that is always there and unmodifiable, but if the model gains a MR bonus from something it isn't raising the STR of my attack. Therefore, it should not get any bonuses.

Does the Model have a ward save?
If No, MR gives a ward save.
If Yes, the MR makes the ward save better.
Nothing in the rules state that MR only works with some ward saves but not others.

Does the pendant have a value for the ward save? Yes it does. The value is equal to the strength of the attack.
MR does what MR does. It improves ward saves.

-Matt

OK, so I hit him with 10 (2 D6) STR 2 hits and wounded 7 (really good rolls), so he has to roll a 2 or under or suffer a wound, but is with in 6 inches of the statue that gives MR 2. So, now he gets to roll 4 or under to avoid the hits? It just sounds extremely over cheesy to me that this benefits from the MR....

Plus the ward has no value, it is equal to or under the STR of the attack, which should be not able to be modified. It is like a STR test, which you cannot modify at all, and all stat tests are almost always at the base value with no modifiers allowed.

Crom wrote:
OK, so I hit him with 10 (2 D6) STR 2 hits and wounded 7 (really good rolls), so he has to roll a 2 or under or suffer a wound, but is with in 6 inches of the statue that gives MR 2. So, now he gets to roll 4 or under to avoid the hits? It just sounds extremely over cheesy to me that this benefits from the MR....

Plus the ward has no value, it is equal to or under the STR of the attack, which should be not able to be modified. It is like a STR test, which you cannot modify at all, and all stat tests are almost always at the base value with no modifiers allowed.

The ward save has a value, you stated in the 2nd half of your statement.
The rules for MR say they modify, so I don't see why your having such a hard time with this.
As for as stat tests, that has nothing to do with ward saves or MR.

-Matt

I don't have the dark elf army book, so i can't check for myself, but i do have a question for the owner of it.

Does the pendant entry actually say it's a ward save? Or does it say that the wound is ignored or some other word along those lines?

It does call it a ward save Scarecrow

It doesnt make the ward save better; it reduces the dice rol required to pass by 1 for each point of MR

So instead of needing to roll 2 or less, you need to roll 0 or less.

Even though the RAI seems pretty clear, GW would need to FAQ this to clear up the RAW.

I can't remember the last time I actually took MR anyway, so it is moot for me

Davall wrote:Even though the RAI seems pretty clear, GW would need to FAQ this to clear up the RAW.

I can't remember the last time I actually took MR anyway, so it is moot for me

In our case it was a piece of terrain that gives all units with in 6 inches MR 2....wasn't an item or a spell. Plus, rules as written states that it is a bonus to the roll. So, it would as it seems be worse since he had to roll a 2 or under and every roll he made he added 2. A reverse ward save only has to beat the STR of the attack. So, if a magic attack does direct damage with no STR value the reverse ward save does nothing. It only acts against the STR level of the attack. My attack was STR 2, therefore you need to roll a 2 or under.

This ward save is very specific. There are many ways of attack in WHFB that can deal damage with out STR, like Lore of Metal and Death. These attacks that do not have a STR value cannot be saved by the reverse ward save. Therefore, if a model has a reverse ward save and MR, it should have to choose which it is going to use and cannot use both and they do not stack. The ward save itself has no value at all, it only ignores wounds rolling under the STR of the attack. MR gives you a bonus to your roll.

hamsterwheel wrote:

Crom wrote:Can you find where it states this in the book, FAQ, or anything? We looked and found nothing.

It's on page 72 of the BRB where it describes what Magic Resistance does.

"A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells."

Reverse ward save does not equal ward save.

Oh, so you won't mind if my Unkillable Dread has (and uses) Regeneration then!

Bloodcurdling roar nerfs the dreadlord on peg. 2d6 strength 1 hits, save that!

TCWarRoom wrote:Bloodcurdling roar nerfs the dreadlord on peg. 2d6 strength 1 hits, save that!

Yeah the reverse ward save + crown of command + heavy armor + mounted on a dark pegasus, is ultra cheese. Charge your opponents biggest unit, and tie them for at least half the game, sometimes the whole game. After discussing it with one of my gaming buddies we have decided that since it goes strictly off the STR of the attack it should be considered like an attribute test, and any MR gained outside that acts as an optional standard ward save. So, if he had MR 2 the player could choose 5+ ward from the MR2, or roll equal or under the STR of the attack.

Otherwise, for the point cost that thing is just stupidly over powered. Imagine getting a 1+ armor save, reverse ward save and then a freaking bonus to the reverse ward save roll? that just doesn't sound right. The reverse ward save is a very specific special save and that is what you have to roll regardless of MR.

TCWarRoom wrote:Bloodcurdling roar nerfs the dreadlord on peg. 2d6 strength 1 hits, save that!

Yep, that'll likely lay a wound or two on.

Crom - as I said, technically it increases the ward save - which makes the reverse ward worse, as it is a roll under not over.

It's IS a ward save. MR does make ward saves better.
Nothing cheesy or unclear about it.
A 4+ Ward save with MR 2 is a 2+ against enemy magic too.
The PoK is no different from the 4+ ward save except it's worse against low strength things and better against high strength things. Hit him with S2-S4 magic spells or use attribute tests like Lore of Death, neither of which it gives superior protection to a normal ward save against.

"A model with MR has a BONUS to its ward saves when saving against damage caused by spells."
Using rules as intended and logical in any slightly 'grey' situation is the correct way to handle things. If you use the most stupid no-common-sense answer to a grey area then the game can get stupid fast. I would not play a 2nd game with someone who tried to say a BONUS to my ward save made me take extra damage for no reason. You are That Guy if you'd ever call that.

So is someone trying to claim MR while having the Pendant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So is someone trying to claim MR while having the Pendant.

No, it was a game where a piece of terrain was adding +2 MR to all units/models with in 6 inches of it. The argument came up when I hit him with 2D6 STR 2 hits and wounded him 7 times. He wanted to add +2 to his ward so he had to roll a 4 or under. I disagreed and said that it was an attribute test against the STR of the attack, and that the ward save itself has no set value. MR would give him a 5+ ward save and he could opt to take that instead.

We rolled for it, he won, he got the bonus to his reverse ward save, and then a few days later discussing it with friends we decided you get to choose, MR or reverse ward save they do not stack. Also, MR making the reverse ward save worse, is just as silly as the reverse ward save itself.

TheBloodGod wrote:It's IS a ward save. MR does make ward saves better.
Nothing cheesy or unclear about it.
A 4+ Ward save with MR 2 is a 2+ against enemy magic too.
The PoK is no different from the 4+ ward save except it's worse against low strength things and better against high strength things. Hit him with S2-S4 magic spells or use attribute tests like Lore of Death, neither of which it gives superior protection to a normal ward save against.

QFT

I don't understand where people are getting the whole "PoK is not a ward save" thing. It's a ward save, with a value equal to or lower than the strength of the attack. It also gets a +2 bonus from the MR, so the value of the ward save, goes from 2 or lower to +2, to 4 or lower.

Unless someone can give me a quote saying that PoK is NOT a ward save then I really don't understand the logic.

I dont really see how a Dreadlord on a dark pegasus is hard to kill. With heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak and mounted save, you get a 2+ save and a variable ward save. Overwhelm him through sheer number of attacks and he tarpits for maybe 4 combat phases. Hes on a pretty large base, 4 20mm models can get into base contact with him, and the pendant doesnt help against lore of death sniping spells. And in the end you spend like 260+ pts(which is basically like 50 t3 fodder models)? And hes probably your general as well.