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Crom - except thats not how MR works; it reduces the value needed to pass the ward save by 1, or grants a 6+ (or better) if ward save if you have none to begin with.

Pendant is a Ward Save where you roll *under* the value. So if you are hit by S2 you must roll 2 or under

MR reduces the value required to pass by 1 for each point of MR - so it turns "pass on a 2-" to "pass on a 0-" for MR2

Page 72:
A model with magic resistance has a bonus to its ward save when saving against damage caused by spells. This bonus is based on the number shown in brackets after the magic Resistance special rule. Magic Resistance (2) would give a +2 bonus (turning a 5+ ward save into a 3+ ward save, for example).

Ok, so the first part says magic resistance is a bonus.
The 2nd part gives you one example of MR, but not an all inclusive rule.
I fail to see how it doesn't combine and give a bonus to a pendant.
Yes, the pendant is undercosted. But that's not part of YMTC.

-Matt

Nowhere in the PoK rules, or in the MR rules, does it say that MR penalizes the PoK Ward save. The MR rules specifically says it grants a bonus to Ward saves, not a positive modifer. Granted, in the example printed in the rules, the bonus becomes a positive modifier; under nearly all circumstances the MR bonus will become a positve modifer; but the rules says bonus.

End of discussion.


As far as dealing with the Unkillable Dread... it's not as easy as it sounds. Sure, cheap R&F can kill him. The point of putting him on a Dark Peggie is to grant him the maneuverablity to hit the target he wants to fight, usually something with 4+ Strength, or a killer combat character or two you want to tie up indefinitely in a challenge. Try catching something with a 20" march with cheap R&F sometime - or better yet, don't; it's an exercise in futility.

My experience is he dies when he fails his Stubborn 10 test.

-Matt

RAW say wards get a "bonus". PoK is a ward. In the situation you described, "bonus" for the PoK is to take the 2 to a 4. RAW say your opponent was right. In this situation, it is still less powerful than if he had a Talisman of Preservation. No idea why it's "cheesy" here. Sure, PoK is really good, although I stopped taking it since I kept rolling 6's.

Just got a response from GW, pendant of khaeleth is affected by MR.

Question wrote:Just got a response from GW, pendant of khaeleth is affected by MR.

Which means nothing until an official FAQ is published. Call/e-mail 4 different times and get 4 different answers.

This is not a shot at you, Question, but GW's track record when it comes to their non-official FAQ responses.

Yea phone monkeys get less respect than webmouths.

Yes, when the Unkillable Dread actually does fail a stubborn 10 roll, there is a decent chance he will get run down.

That happens about once per 12 rounds of combat, or once per 24 if you keep the BSB nearby. Hardly a reason to seriously worry.

Doom and darkness might help as well as stacking iceshard blizzards.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Page 72:
A model with magic resistance has a bonus to its ward save when saving against damage caused by spells. This bonus is based on the number shown in brackets after the magic Resistance special rule. Magic Resistance (2) would give a +2 bonus (turning a 5+ ward save into a 3+ ward save, for example).

Ok, so the first part says magic resistance is a bonus.
The 2nd part gives you one example of MR, but not an all inclusive rule.
I fail to see how it doesn't combine and give a bonus to a pendant.
Yes, the pendant is undercosted. But that's not part of YMTC.

-Matt

Yep.

Pendant is a ward save that changes how ward saves are saved; its based on the strength and you need to roll under (not over.)

The BRB states that a 5+ ward save when hit by a direct damage spell; if the unit has MR this Ward Save is reduced to 3+.

So instead of passing on a 5 or less, you instead pass on a 3 or less as your ward save is now 3+ and the Pendant says you must roll under.

Just because its *supposed* to be beneficial; doesnt make it good in all cases.

Aeon wrote:So instead of passing on a 5 or less, you instead pass on a 3 or less as your ward save is now 3+ and the Pendant says you must roll under.

Just because its *supposed* to be beneficial; doesnt make it good in all cases.

There is no "supposed" benefit. It is a true benefit. The BRB doesn't say "...supposedly models with MR have a bonus...", it just says they have a bonus and yes it is good in all cases, otherwise it would not be a bonus.

The book clearly states that MR 2 would turn a 5+ ward save to a 3+ ward save. Which according to the Pendant you need to roll equal to or under.

Im not sure what you mean by supposed and true benefits; Im guessing having flamming attacks is a true benefit to? So whats the Dragon Helm or Dragon armour? Does it turn flaming attacks into supposed benefits?

Aeon wrote:The book clearly states that MR 2 would turn a 5+ ward save to a 3+ ward save. Which according to the Pendant you need to roll equal to or under.

Im not sure what you mean by supposed and true benefits; Im guessing having flamming attacks is a true benefit to? So whats the Dragon Helm or Dragon armour? Does it turn flaming attacks into supposed benefits?

It also clearly states that it is merely an example. By true benefit I mean the rule states it is a bonus, that is how it behaves in all circumstance where it would be applicable. Flaming does not, it merely "is". It may be a benefit, it may be a hindrance and the book does not describe it as either. In fact, Flaming Attacks specifically says "...while Flaming Attacks do not give bonuses against normal troops..." MR says it is a bonus, pure and simple. It then goes on to give an example as to how it is a bonus to one particular type of ward save, which is explicitly not inclusive of all types of ward saves.

There are multiple types of ward saves now?

Aeon wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Page 72:
A model with magic resistance has a bonus to its ward save when saving against damage caused by spells. This bonus is based on the number shown in brackets after the magic Resistance special rule. Magic Resistance (2) would give a +2 bonus (turning a 5+ ward save into a 3+ ward save, for example).

Ok, so the first part says magic resistance is a bonus.
The 2nd part gives you one example of MR, but not an all inclusive rule.
I fail to see how it doesn't combine and give a bonus to a pendant.
Yes, the pendant is undercosted. But that's not part of YMTC.

-Matt

Yep.

Pendant is a ward save that changes how ward saves are saved; its based on the strength and you need to roll under (not over.)

The BRB states that a 5+ ward save when hit by a direct damage spell; if the unit has MR this Ward Save is reduced to 3+.

So instead of passing on a 5 or less, you instead pass on a 3 or less as your ward save is now 3+ and the Pendant says you must roll under.

Just because its *supposed* to be beneficial; doesnt make it good in all cases.

That is just silly, so in my case if I had say 2D6 STR 4 hits no armor save and the Dark Elf dude with the pendant was with in range of the terrain piece that gives MR 2, he would have to roll a 2 or under? You only get one ward save, and MR doesn't affect the STR of the attack, the pendant says you must roll equal or under the STR of the attack. In my opinion MR 2 would give you a 5+ ward save that would be optional in this case. Models that have multiple ward saves must choose one, and things like regeneration and such also come into this. MR does not affect the STR of the attack. The ward save itself has no value, it is not 3+, 4+ or whatever, it must roll equal or under the STR of the attack.

I think the most logical outcome of this is that if anyone waring the Pendant and has a reverse ward save, and also for whatever reason gains Magic resistance, will then get to choose. Do I want to use my reverse ward save, or do I want to use my MR 2 which gives me a 5+ ward save?

That I think is how we are going to rule it in our gaming group. Seems logical and fair to me.

Aeon wrote:There are multiple types of ward saves now?

Absolutely, 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+, 2+ vs. Fire, Pendant of Khaleth, Forest Spirt, Opal Amulet, etc. But I'm sure you already knew that, because if there wasn't we wouldn't need a description. "Ward Save" would simply suffice for all models that possessed it.

For those who think it makes the ward save worse...
A model with MR improves his ward save.
A model without MR gains a ward save.

So, S2 hit vs pendant with MR3.
Pendant is a ward save, so he doesn't gain a ward save from the MR, as per the MR rule.

Are you actually thinking that the pendant will provide a ward save of -1 or less on a D6, because of the MR?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Crom wrote:Here is the logical issues i have with the reverse ward save and MR. Since, the reserve ward save doesn't have a value to roll for save, say 3+, 4+, 5+ and so on, it shouldn't get the benefit of magic resistance. MR doesn't raise the STR of my attacks against the reverse ward save, and since it doesn't have a value, you always must roll equal or under the STR of the attack that hit you. It is a ward save in the fact that is always there and unmodifiable, but if the model gains a MR bonus from something it isn't raising the STR of my attack. Therefore, it should not get any bonuses.

Does the Model have a ward save?
If No, MR gives a ward save.
If Yes, the MR makes the ward save better.
Nothing in the rules state that MR only works with some ward saves but not others.

Does the pendant have a value for the ward save? Yes it does. The value is equal to the strength of the attack.
MR does what MR does. It improves ward saves.

This is how I would view it as well. MR just improves the ward save. If you have a magic item that gives you a ward save, even a variable ward save, you have that as your base and then magic resistance improves upon that save. Just because its a variable ward save doesn't mean its still not a ward save. If the item says, "Character has a (insert value) ward save." Its still a ward save. The rule for magic resistance clearly indicates how it works with a ward save.

The Dark Elves have more nasties - take a level 4 Sorceress with Dark Magic and the Black Amulet. I've seen the Sorceress take out Bloodthirsters in a challenge! All you have to do is get the spell that lets her gain wounds for all the models she kills so she has some 6 wounds and she can drop the Bloodthirster. If she doesn't kill him in round 1, then losing to a ranked unit will cause him some issues. If not, repeat next turn.