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I have read a lot of GW based indignation on this very forum, and, being no GW fanboy I empathise fully. It can be a very expensive hobby, mainly, in my humble opinion due to GW having successfully annihilated the competition. But there are numerous people who play the many alternatives to Warhammer/40k/LOTR, such as Mantic citing the cost of GW products being very expensive as the main reason. So think about this, should GW fall spectacularly from grace and Mantic etc, move into their markets, then surely Mantic would increase prices knowing that since there is precious few alternatives any more they can charge what they please, a bit like GW are doing now. Once the 'other games' for want of a better name become big and popular I can hardly imagine they will retain their big, friendly image they used to snag the disenfranchised Warhammer crowd. Just putting this out there, this is entirely hypothetical and could be wrong, as it's just my weird logic.

Makes sense actually. In a buisiness sense, I can see it happening.

No it kind of makes sense, any company once it becomes a monopoly tends to try to do this in some form. As long as there remains healthy competition though it shouldn't happen. That's probably why there is such an uproar about the prices; they're priced like a monopoly when they're not.

Could be right, could be wrong.

For me, though, it's not about prices so much as how you treat your customers and product. Other big names don't tend to wait as long as GW does in patching their product nor do they actively work to cut off a section of their clientele(the Australian/Southern Hemisphere fiasco). Some even go so far as to take exchange rates in to account for regional pricing.

I think that the thing with other games is that you can play them, yes, but you don't get to have a community if you play an alternative.

An example - my gaming group wanted to "do something different." So they got into Clan War. Like 2 guys were interested, the rest were not, but bought into it anyway.

So here is a group of 4, all playing. But the game went under and they never really released all the expansions that were needed. Our group lost interest. Then - BAM - tons of useless Clan War models.

Now, if the game had a community at my local gamestore, I could go play it if I wanted (even though the game went under). But nobody plays it. Nobody.

So what's the better investment? Paying more for a game that people actually play? Or paying less and taking a risk that your friends will get bored with it and not want to play an OOP game anymore in a couple of years (after you've dropped the cash and spent tons of time painting models)?

There's a big difference when you say "I know a couple of guys who play (fill in the blank) versus "Yeah, they play that at my local gamestore all the time!"

Solorg

JeneralJoe117 wrote:I have read a lot of GW based indignation on this very forum, and, being no GW fanboy I empathise fully. It can be a very expensive hobby, mainly, in my humble opinion due to GW having successfully annihilated the competition. But there are numerous people who play the many alternatives to Warhammer/40k/LOTR, such as Mantic citing the cost of GW products being very expensive as the main reason. So think about this, should GW fall spectacularly from grace and Mantic etc, move into their markets, then surely Mantic would increase prices knowing that since there is precious few alternatives any more they can charge what they please, a bit like GW are doing now. Once the 'other games' for want of a better name become big and popular I can hardly imagine they will retain their big, friendly image they used to snag the disenfranchised Warhammer crowd. Just putting this out there, this is entirely hypothetical and could be wrong, as it's just my weird logic.

The problem with your analysis is you're mistaking the market for the position: that is, GW believe (wrongly, it would seem) that is can charge ever increasing premiums because they (at least appear to) buy into the notion that there is a "GW Hobby". That is, people who enter the table-top gaming scene through GW stores and GW games will stay with those games to the exclusion of their competitors. In other words, GW acts like they have a monopoly position.

Whether Mantic or PP or CB would adopt similar pricing if they were in GW's shoes is an interesting question, but it must be realized that none of them are at all likely to be able to fill that position. For one thing, because GW is unlikely to completely collapse and exit the marketplace; more likely they simply bow to economic reality at some point in time.

We often forget that, for all of their most recent boneheaded moves, GW did make some very good moves in the last decade or so, chiefly that at the height of their profits from LotRs, they heavily invested in the production of plastic kits. Let's make no mistake, while people love PP's superior rules and CV's superlative models, GW has a staggering dominance in the area of plastic kits.

Mantic is trying to carve a niche for themselves by providing affordable plastic kits in the Fantasy area (and soon sci-fi), but they are ways away from offering anything like the breadth of product that GW offers. Plastic models are, in my opinoin, the key to really achieving mass success, as, let's face it, they are far more accessible for the casual entrant into the hobby.

So, in the near term? Prices may be raised for whatever reason, but as long as GW remains a powerful player in the miniature hobby, other players will have reason to try and undercut them when they play on the same terms.

Solorg wrote:So what's the better investment? Paying more for a game that people actually play? Or paying less and taking a risk that your friends will get bored with it and not want to play an OOP game anymore in a couple of years (after you've dropped the cash and spent tons of time painting models)?

Wow thats it completely! Well said.

Once upon a time, in the 80 and 90s ALL of gaming was like this, heh. Even GW was a strange British company, they didn't have stores etc. and were just another line of imported games. Places to play in stores kind of grew up, and the information age rise of social media really changed the scene. The safe games in those days were mostly Steve Jackson games or board games, because they were known.

Once upon a time you had to convince your mates to play the thing and that was the best you could hope for...

I think it's a testament to Mantic that this topic keeps coming up. Mantic are a new company, the game rules are in beta and they have not even released all of their Fantasy lines....and none of their sci-fi stuff. Yet we talk of them as if they are direct competition for GW.

As someone else said, GW has the community. In my area 40k dominates. I would like to play WarmaHordes but it's hard to get a game without traveling a little. I know some areas where WarmaHordes has the community, and the numbers are growing. However if you look at the numbers you are much more likely to be able to get a game of 40k in most areas than any other game system. That's what has GW where they are today.

I would argue that the OP's scenario where if GW disappears and others fill in its void, they'll become just as bad as GW is only really likely if a single company fills the niche. As it currently stands, Privateer Press is pretty big in the US and is getting bigger elsewhere, Mantic is growing, and Spartan Games is picking up a lot of momentum. So it's more likely that a few companies would fill the void left by GW, which means they'd be in competition with each other and (hopefully) less likely to do what GW's been doing.

Just my two cents.

It makes sense business wise sure. However many of these other companies are still run by people who are into the gaming hobby, and not executive boards whose only goal is increase stock market value like GW. People who actually use the product and care about the customer base are less likely to be as harsh as GW has been in recent years.

$pider wrote:I think it's a testament to Mantic that this topic keeps coming up. Mantic are a new company, the game rules are in beta and they have not even released all of their Fantasy lines....and none of their sci-fi stuff. Yet we talk of them as if they are direct competition for GW.

As someone else said, GW has the community. In my area 40k dominates. I would like to play WarmaHordes but it's hard to get a game without traveling a little. I know some areas where WarmaHordes has the community, and the numbers are growing. However if you look at the numbers you are much more likely to be able to get a game of 40k in most areas than any other game system. That's what has GW where they are today.

I don't know where you are in NJ, but The Game Room in Brick Township (Ocean County) has a good Warmachine community (it has mainly became popular with 40k players, most of them switched to it), there is open gaming on Fridays from 6-10 PM if you are interested and close by.

Mad4Minis wrote:It makes sense business wise sure. However many of these other companies are still run by people who are into the gaming hobby, and not executive boards whose only goal is increase stock market value like GW. People who actually use the product and care about the customer base are less likely to be as harsh as GW has been in recent years.

And I don't believe the wargaming community has had a giant like GW in it before. It'll be the textbook case of 'how not to treat your customer base' for years to come.

This is assuming someone can become GW. I believe there are certain historical entries to the market that cannot be recreated or captured by another company. For example, I can't see there being another Bill Gates or MS for the software world. The market is simply too large, too saturated with competition, too governed by patents and too evolving to develop that kind of market share again.

GW is in a similar position. Anyone with a pressure pot and some silicone can cast miniatures now (with a bit of patience). Third party borderline basement companies are using 3d technology to develop miniatures and selling at competitive pricing. I don't see GW going away of course---but I do seem becoming more of an IP brand with collectible models--rather than a tabletop game.

infinite_array wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:It makes sense business wise sure. However many of these other companies are still run by people who are into the gaming hobby, and not executive boards whose only goal is increase stock market value like GW. People who actually use the product and care about the customer base are less likely to be as harsh as GW has been in recent years.

And I don't believe the wargaming community has had a giant like GW in it before. It'll be the textbook case of 'how not to treat your customer base' for years to come.

...I would think that if another company rose to GW's level of " success" , they will have learned not to male the same sort of mistakes and simply follow GW over the cliff edge.

Solorg wrote:There's a big difference when you say "I know a couple of guys who play (fill in the blank) versus "Yeah, they play that at my local gamestore all the time!"

As someone who, with my brother and another friend, bought into Warzone as a second game in the 90's, I understand this completely.

This could well happen. But let's take advantage of the lower price points provided by other companies while we still can. The current amount of competition out there is very like a lot of smaller sharks sensing blood, and they are slowly moving in for the kill.
I like the Mantic mini's, yes, even the much lambasted Elves. Their undead are brilliant, as are the Mantic Orcs.....and the game is not half bad either.
The sort of deals that Mantic are providing us with at the moment are nothing short of staggering, £99 for over 100 mini's plus a 56 page full colour rulebook! That is very good value indeed. A full army plus rules for less than it costs for 1000pts of GW stuff, and that does not even cover the cost of the Codex/ Army book and the main rules......

That's the problem....

All these politics and capitalism are getting in the way of mai toy soldziaaaaaazzzzzzz!!!!!

This is normal for any sort of company. There will always be a top dog company (GW), and once they fall under, another will takes its place. Most likely Priviteer Press or Battlefronts. But thats just my opinion.

But yes the OP does make alot of sence on the topic

I don't think that if GW died out that another company would take the approach of opening their own dedicated shops everywhere. As far as this hobby goes GW are unique in that. Everyone else sells stuff themselves online and at tradeshows but mainly through independent retailers. And anywhere where you have an independent retailer you get a variety of stock, one manufacturer is alongside another. And there is no effective monopoly in the way GW currently have.

Fact is in the UK the bulk of gaming shops are GW stores that only sell their own stuff, obviously. The independents have died out, partly thanks to the way GW has aggressively expanded over the decades putting the squeeze on them. That's not to say GW haven't made a success on their own merits, their products were among the most attractive of their time when GW were first expanding big time. They have since made their products the biggest on the market, by opening their own shops they attract customers dedicated to them. But the result has been that independents, those relying the GW stuff as their bread and butter alongside other manufacturers, have suffered and died out in many places. This leaves only GW operating an effective monopoly on miniature supplies in some towns and cities. It's bad for customer choice.

But a lot of GWs woes come from the fact that they operate so many stores with colossal overheads. They are a big company and maintain their massive presence through their highstreet shops, but it comes at a huge cost to them. Given their struggles leading to constant price increases their strategy, as a lot of people would judge it, is not sustainable for the long term.

So really, I'm not convinced that if GW died out that another company would fill their shoes and take the same approach by attempting to aggressively dominate the marketplace in the same manner, meaning they couldn't operate a similar monopoly which ultimately would be reflected in the way that prices are held back a bit more.

And if GW died out would more independent stores open? I hope so, but maybe we're too far down that road now.

Its a possible scenario but I have a hard time painting the future just in black and white... GW behavior is just one way of doing things and not the only way.
Since we are shooting some ideas about the future I believe this industry will be diluted between several companies and the size disparity between each others will not be so big.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one of the biggest reasons for GW acting they way they do, from a business perspective, is due to the fact that they are a stocks and shares company, rather than a small privately owned business.....GW derives it's investment capital from it's investors, and to attract those investors they have to "provide" a percentage return on investment, year on year! However, when GW goes out to attract investors and share holders, they are competing with pharmaceutical companies, energy companies amongst others.....

If GW collapsed, and lets say PP or CB took their place as industry leaders, so long as they stayed privately owned companies, they wouldn't be FORCED to make the same decisions that GW now has to make.

Delephont wrote:If GW collapsed, and lets say PP or CB took their place as industry leaders, so long as they stayed privately owned companies, they wouldn't be FORCED to make the same decisions that GW now has to make.

Any business will try to squeeze as much money as it can out of its customers. The only difference is whether they'll try to do it all at once or go in for the long haul. PLCs tend to favour the former, private companies can go both ways depending on how smart the owner is.

JeneralJoe117 wrote:I have read a lot of GW based indignation on this very forum, and, being no GW fanboy I empathise fully. It can be a very expensive hobby, mainly, in my humble opinion due to GW having successfully annihilated the competition. But there are numerous people who play the many alternatives to Warhammer/40k/LOTR, such as Mantic citing the cost of GW products being very expensive as the main reason. So think about this, should GW fall spectacularly from grace and Mantic etc, move into their markets, then surely Mantic would increase prices knowing that since there is precious few alternatives any more they can charge what they please, a bit like GW are doing now. Once the 'other games' for want of a better name become big and popular I can hardly imagine they will retain their big, friendly image they used to snag the disenfranchised Warhammer crowd. Just putting this out there, this is entirely hypothetical and could be wrong, as it's just my weird logic.

GW is just another in a long line of "Industry" leaders.
Your post here is only depended on that GW is the only game in town. That is one way to look at it, another is to look at past performance of the gaming industry and see trends that are increasingly familiar, and continue to move in a bell curve.

- TSR.
- FASA
- Avilon Hill
- Milton Bradley
- WOTC
- Wizkids

As of now? GW is joining the ranks of "Too smart for thier own good", so they get too focused on the idea that they are the only game in town( heh heh)
Then someone out of the background will come in, do what they do better, and in endstate- Eat thier lunch.

The Gaming industry is evergrowing, and everchanging. Thats just how it has been since someone put dice to table, and pushed thier first chit.

total sense since Gw needs to make deal with other franchises and lower prices that or i need to go to GB right now join the rioters at night and loot a GW store! no just kidding and I have to much a respect for GW to do that anyways! but it does sound like a smart idea!

When I started on Warmachine, many years ago PP made us some promises on their forum, saying they wouldn´t do what a certain other company did.

1) No plastic.
2) No armybooks
3) No changing the rules so any figures becomes obsolete.

Tha plastic I accepted and also the first pirate armybook but when they totally revamped the rules and made all my limited ed. rulebooks obsolete, I went back to GW. I´d rather be Buttf****d by someone that didn´t promise not to screw me than vice versa.

So, GW are overpriced, their treatment of their fans is horrendous and many of their initiatives suck but they don´t pretend to hide this.

See Disney World on one hand and leading airlines on the other.

I just wish more people could be made aware of this.

(I mean, I'm not backing out, I love GW! )

My issue with GW is they continue to revise things that don't need revising....Just add the damn game instead of changing it.
Put out a mini Grey Knight Codex that adds the Dreadknight. Instead of obliterates the old rules for them.

Whatever happened to Codex Chapter Approved?
Then cool things like Codex Eye of Terror can stick around.
OR Having Grey Knights in my Imperial army as a supplement.
And Nurglings!

And why not go back to your Specialist games, instead of just revising the rules for your main 2 over and over again.
I want to play skirmish style games too guys, instead of trying to find some elite little local group that's already midway through a campaign.

I think some credit has to be given to GW for achieving 'world domination' as such, it is great to have a game which is played almost everywhere. However the downside being prices and poor customer support, ignoring the community and fighting tooth and nail to 'protect' their copyrights. However because of these conditions it is great to see smaller companies grow, GW cant satisfy all tastes, especially with its business attitude, so we dabble elsewhere occaisionally. It would be great to end up with a direct contender at some point, something to make GW listen to the community, to consider and try to undercut with their prices and increase their production. In fact healthy competition could go as far to help make GW into what we, as its customer base want.
That could be a while coming like.

In all seriousness we should band together as a community, decide what we want from GW, within reason, and all send letters and emails, Dakka has 47,037 users at my last count, if we could get warseer, bolter and chainsword and others alongside thats alot more. If we all boycotted GW for one month what would the effect be? Presumably, they'd have to listen abit more. As a consumer base we have alot more power than we realise.

-Loki- wrote:

Solorg wrote:There's a big difference when you say "I know a couple of guys who play (fill in the blank) versus "Yeah, they play that at my local gamestore all the time!"

As someone who, with my brother and another friend, bought into Warzone as a second game in the 90's, I understand this completely.

This is something that often gets overlooked.

When I got back into this hobby, I started searching google for the old GW army boxes. The guy at the GW store said they didn't make them anymore and I wanted to find out when they stopped, and what they currently go for. Well, as it happens, I came across some posts here on Dakka from about 2 years ago talking about the new army box releases from a game called AT-43. People seem excited and interested, and the pictures were admittedly cool looking. So, I looked into the game and discovered that it was out of production and the publisher shut their doors.

GW may have some issues, but I'm quite sure they will still be here in 2 years.

The way I see it there is a single fundamental problem that revolves around what GW has that mantic doesn't speaking exclusively from a business-practice:

Stores.

Anyone know what it costs to rent the space for a location, then to pay the employees, and cover all of the other related expenses as they arise? Lets just say, for argument's sake, that a single GW store costs approximately $20'000 CAD to run per month. That means each store needs to turn $10'000 EVERY month, and then some. You only ever really have demand from the new players, or when there is a new codex. The trouble becomes, who buys enough models to field the maximum of a given option, for each option? Not many. I see the store making huge amounts of money over the winter period (not much to do outside, and then christmas too...). Then, since GW needs to be able to keep its store open, the prices climb, unilaterally. Mantic has no dedicated store so it does not suffer from the same ailment as GW does.

That said, the ubiquity of TTWG is now sufficiently great that the time has long since come for GW retail chain to close its doors into the night. Hobby shops already carry their product, and the competition between FLGS and GW retail makes it hard for either to really float.

TLDR: GW retail chain needs to close. Prices will not go down, but we won't see a price rise for years to come.