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Morning Dakka,
I am looking for general advice, how you as a player handle this, and how you think a TO would handle it. I'll give a run down of the scenario. Please give constructive feedback, as I am friends with the TO and would like to aid them moving forward for similar events.

During a ongoing escalation league we ran into the following issues. Of note, this was the final sessions, game 2 out of 3. Please keep in mind this is an escalation league where there is no paint requirement, and you are support to have printed copies of your list. The reason this is important you have to build off your prior week. So week 1 is 750, so you have to use the same units, but they can have different composition in your week 2 / 1000 pt list, can so on up to 1500.

I presented to my table to find a Grey Knight player, who I have never before met. I asked for my opponents list to which he informed me he does not have one. I asked for his former week list, figure not a huge deal as he can show me what he's added in. He responds he has never had one, and has never been asked. I mentioned this to the TO. Who asked my opponent to write a list. My opponent questions why, I point out because it helps the opponent not feel he's getting hosed, and that he has a army I am not familiar with and still learning about.

Attempt 1 resulted in a illegal list that was over points. Attempt 2 had a legal lists. Not off to a good start we start the game. My opponent steals the initiative and fires a shot at a tank through area terrain. I point out it would be a 4+ cover save does he want a new target. My opponent indicates he has never played it this way, and I point there are several tree's obstructing a straight shot in area terrain. We talked about area terrain, and he still refutes a cover save. I ask if I allow this to go, can I claim a cover safe off the 2 rifle dreads who are on a hill who will be shooting threw terrain, he says yes. I allow the shot, and lose the tank.

We got to resolve the next set of shots, he then refutes his previous offer. I'm very confused at this point. And ask clearly, hey you just said and agreed on this. He refuses, and we move on. My turn goes, we move to his. He pulls the same thing. I grab the TO. TO walks him through area terrain rules, looks at the line of sight to the tanks and mentions they are all cover saves. I mention I was trying to meet in the middle. My opponent indicates lets start the entire game over. Now this is an hour into an hour and a half game. Where most of the clock has been run by my opponent making a list. I'm ranked #2 in the escalation league total standings, and this game is going to hose me, so we move on. As I mention to the TO, that the only result that can help me is a massacre, and to do this I have to play the game. Because otherwise its getting called a draw and i'm shafted.

So turn 3 goes, I Lash my opponents units all around, setting up rapid fire, and end the lives of 2 grey knight squads, using obliterator to take out tanks, and deep strike terminators suiciding them to put my opponent back peddling. My opponent tries to claim a cover save while standing on a hill for a Dreadnaught. I ask him has he been using the Hill for elevation / lines of sight, he mentions yes. TO comes over, mentions, no, its not a cover save if your just elevated / its not declared as cover.

By turn 4 we are in combat and my opponent mentions. "I realize I probably look pretty bad, why don't I offer you a cover save for your demon princes for the rest of the game, would that make you happy." I do not even respond, as by this time, the Princes have done their job, my units are stuck in cleaning up min / maxed demon hunter squads. And there is nothing in his army that ignores my 3+ / 5+ save. Game ends. I massacre my opponent badly, full points.

After the game the opponent mentions he is a frequent GT attendee. This shocked me greatly. First, denying cover saves everywhere, even after the TO has chimed in. No list from someone having gone to a GT? My opponent also spend 30 minutes talking about the statistical advantages he implements with dice rolls, and how his researches dice. All round he seemed like a power gamer trying to cheat to win, which was really disappointing. I admit, I got louder then normal, and think I was pretty beat red, so i'm using this as learning experience for myself as well on how to deal with this in the future.

Here starts another problem. The opponent that played my current opponent in Game 1 that same day is upset. Its clear my opponent played him over points, he wants a resolution. The result was the TO "talked to the player" after the event. He is able to play in the next escalation league. This seems problematic to me, so here are my suggestions.

1. Implement the "no list, no play" rules
2. Immediately eject players from the league for blatent cheating
3. Ban the kid from 1 session of events to prove a point.

Any other suggestions from other Dakkittes?

I talk to them personally first to see what the issue is. You said "kid" so im not sure old this person is but people in general don't stop doing something until there are repercussions

Fair play is usually a result of penalties imposed for not playing fair. However, a list is almost always required unless it's between people who know each other well (How do you add up your list without a.. list tho??)

I don't favor ejection unless its a huge problem because I believe that given a chance most players will reform their behavior if they want to continue playing. Public humiliation usually isnt the best form of punishment in these circumstances

I've had to deal with this before, and what I do is like I said.. Sit the person down, explain the rules and what will happen if they continue to break them. After that is done, if they keep up the behavior then I restrict them from playing in my events

If you waste the first hour while he writes out a list (and then corrects for being illegal) which was mandatory to provide anyway then he should concede the match, but you can still play a friendly game. If he's have survived for a draw after wasting the first hour that would not have been a fair result in my book.

njpc wrote:I presented to my table to find a Grey Knight player, who I have never before met. I asked for my opponents list to which he informed me he does not have one.

Not okay unless you're in a friendly game and even then not really okay.

I mentioned this to the TO. Who asked my opponent to write a list.

Handled.

Attempt 1 resulted in a illegal list that was over points. Attempt 2 had a legal lists. Not off to a good start we start the game.

Handled.

My opponent steals the initiative and fires a shot at a tank through area terrain. I point out it would be a 4+ cover save does he want a new target. My opponent indicates he has never played it this way, and I point there are several tree's obstructing a straight shot in area terrain. We talked about area terrain, and he still refutes a cover save. I ask if I allow this to go, can I claim a cover safe off the 2 rifle dreads who are on a hill who will be shooting threw terrain, he says yes. I allow the shot, and lose the tank.

You're going to have to clarify here. Was your tank 50% obscured by the actual elements on the table using TLOS rules? If not, then you were wrong. Simply shooting through area terrain does not grant a cover save.

We got to resolve the next set of shots, he then refutes his previous offer. I'm very confused at this point. And ask clearly, hey you just said and agreed on this. He refuses, and we move on. My turn goes, we move to his. He pulls the same thing. I grab the TO. TO walks him through area terrain rules, looks at the line of sight to the tanks and mentions they are all cover saves.

Sounds like you have 50% coverage and you engaged a TO, so handled.

I mention I was trying to meet in the middle. My opponent indicates lets start the entire game over. Now this is an hour into an hour and a half game. Where most of the clock has been run by my opponent making a list. I'm ranked #2 in the escalation league total standings, and this game is going to hose me, so we move on. As I mention to the TO, that the only result that can help me is a massacre, and to do this I have to play the game. Because otherwise its getting called a draw and i'm shafted.

Or you can present your case to the TO and have him throw out the game, which I probably would have done if I got to 1.5 out of 2.5 hours and hadn't started the game.

So turn 3 goes, I Lash my opponents units all around, setting up rapid fire, and end the lives of 2 grey knight squads, using obliterator to take out tanks, and deep strike terminators suiciding them to put my opponent back peddling. My opponent tries to claim a cover save while standing on a hill for a Dreadnaught. I ask him has he been using the Hill for elevation / lines of sight, he mentions yes. TO comes over, mentions, no, its not a cover save if your just elevated / its not declared as cover.

This is why it is important to clearly go over terrain and cover before a game starts.

By turn 4 we are in combat and my opponent mentions. "I realize I probably look pretty bad, why don't I offer you a cover save for your demon princes for the rest of the game, would that make you happy." I do not even respond, as by this time, the Princes have done their job, my units are stuck in cleaning up min / maxed demon hunter squads. And there is nothing in his army that ignores my 3+ / 5+ save. Game ends. I massacre my opponent badly, full points.

Umm. At least have the courtesy to respond. He's trying to reach out, as lame as it is. It may be just fake courtesy from him, but a nice 'Hey, that's cool man. I appreciate the thought, but we don't need to do that.' would go a long way.

After the game the opponent mentions he is a frequent GT attendee. This shocked me greatly. First, denying cover saves everywhere, even after the TO has chimed in.

Some of this could be misunderstanding, not having seen the table. Also frequent GT attendee does not necessarily mean good at the rules. lol

No list from someone having gone to a GT?

GT attendees can be lazy too.

My opponent also spend 30 minutes talking about the statistical advantages he implements with dice rolls, and how his researches dice. All round he seemed like a power gamer trying to cheat to win, which was really disappointing.

Whoa whoa whoa. When did he cheat? You're ascribing motive to him, which is very difficult to do without reading his mind. Confusion over cover happens to EVERYONE. Writing a list and having an illegal element happens to a lot of good people. This guy could have been having a bad day, but saying he's a cheater is a bit OTT.

I admit, I got louder then normal, and think I was pretty beat red, so i'm using this as learning experience for myself as well on how to deal with this in the future.

Good. It takes two to tango. The best thing to do when faced with a situation like this is to be extra professional and nice yourself. Do not feed into a negative situation.

Here starts another problem. The opponent that played my current opponent in Game 1 that same day is upset. Its clear my opponent played him over points, he wants a resolution. The result was the TO "talked to the player" after the event. He is able to play in the next escalation league. This seems problematic to me, so here are my suggestions.

It's a league. Leagues are fun. I think you might be going a bit far on punishments.

1. Implement the "no list, no play" rules

Reasonable

2. Immediately eject players from the league for blatent cheating

Anyone can accidentally be over points. 8 teams for ETC this year had illegal/incorrectly setup lists. Those are top tournament players. Some schmuck playing a league can accidentally do it too.

3. Ban the kid from 1 session of events to prove a point.

Wait, this guy's a kid? Why isn't a solution to this mentoring and working with him to better his game, his understanding of the rules and his sportsmanship?

Situations are never as black and white as we think.

Kirasu wrote:
I don't favor ejection unless its a huge problem because I believe that given a chance most players will reform their behavior if they want to continue playing. Public humiliation usually isnt the best form of punishment in these circumstances

This is a very good point.

After all, there are other players waiting to play the alleged cheat, who will miss out on games if he is ejected.

A reformed player who doesn't cheat any more is surely much better than an empty slot in the standings.

It may be a little more effort, however making sure he has a proper list is the best way to go.

Besides Trees don't mean diddly to a tank for cover unless it's halfway obscured. The way you wrote it out it sounds like you're treating trees as if your tank or his Rifleman dreads were Infantry models.

If it's a kid, there is no point in kicking them out. Get someone who doesnt have a chip on their shoulder to teach them the proper way to play. Even if its the proper way to be a TFG.

Yeah, you have to be more clear about the tank cover save there, because how you presented it, there would be no save. Perhaps you meant to say there was terrain actually blocking the vision instead of calling it area terrain (which only provides cover to infantry that are inside of it)?

Should have clarified a few points, thank for for the open feedback, its something I do appreciate here.

I'm a little older, he wasn't a "kid" he was a 25 year old player. I'm a little more, seasoned one could say

The tank was obsecured. Basically when trying to draw LOS to it, you had to draw though area terrain, with the 4 tree's blocking more then 75% of the tank, with the only visible portion being the side lower rear portion down by the tank tread. I should have clarified this in my original post. The shot was valid in my eyes, asking for a cover save did not seem to be out of norm.

My statements of cheating are referencing the cover saves / retracting his offers. A GT gamer offering a cover save for the rest of the game to a model that does not need one? That's a little odd? Still maybe a true attempt. The dice idea, is to me somewhat hazy. I wouldn't be talking about the statistical merits of dice when my came has start poorly on a few fronts. Granted if this was all a misunderstanding, i'd be surprised, but accept it if at any time he said it. When asked why he was talking about it, he mentioned he likes to have a higher statistically advantage of rolling what he wants. Its statistics, it doesn't break rules, just something I personally don't go for.

Ejection does seem harsh in hindsight. Part of the reason i'm posting this. I'm the person who was affected, but at the same part using this as a learning experience is the goal to help the event moving forward. Basically its a continuing rotating escalation league in quarters. The league restarts every 4 months, the top 4 qualifiers move onto a tournment in December. I ended up qualifying. I am offering to assist run the next quarter, and am hoping to stream line things a bit to help things run smoother. I am a huge supporter of if you see problem, offer a solution, don't just complain.

Thanks again for feedback so far.

No list No Play. Thats just how it is in almost every tourni i have ever been in.

Cover rules for troops can sometimes get hazy but for vehicles and monster creatures they are pretty clear. TBH i would have grabbed the TO the moment something like this came up and got the game on the right track. I get a little too literal in my efforts with LOS sometimes when it comes to troops in freindly games. The other day i could see 5 of my buddies models from the mid thigh down. We got in a bit of a minor dispute over it. Leg is a legal target and more than one leg to me makes it all the more a legal target. He didnt see it that way. In the end i didnt shoot at them but the game was tence after that. I have to remember that it it just a game and that its just for fun. a tourni however has prizes and money involved so rules are rules and i would have involved a TO if i had one.

One of my freinds says that dice take skill. That his skill with dice has lead him to be able to roll better. He has been my freind for over 30 years but at that moment i told him that he was talking about cheating. Stats are one thing but when someone starts making vauge comments about how they like these because the stats are more favorable to them, i start to roll their dice.

End result, sounds like a putz and i for one am really happy you cleaned his clock. Involve the TO more often especially when you are right as you were with the LOS rules. Make sure he brings a legal list and let him continue to play.

I'm starting to try to revise my own stance on these issues... it seems to me that getting "hot under the collar" is the problem. I do too... whether it's a multiplayer video game, warhammer, sports... but being the bigger man and "extra professional" is I think the way to go.

I had an opponent who I thought was antagonizing me, intentionally rushing my turns while taking his time on his own, challenging me on every ruling to the point of absurdity, etc... but in hindsight, I think he was a pretty nice guy. Maybe having bad day. Whatever.

It doesn't mean I'm going to let things slide, or pretend to be nice when I'm upset... but being more "professional" and simply either sticking to the rules discussions, or letting the TO handle it, is imho the way to go.

I'm not proud of getting angry in return at an opponent, the few times it's happened... I think being more professional and just really sticking to the game is the way to go if you're having trouble reasoning with your opponent.

I.e., you can't agree on cover saves... just have the TO check it, as you did.

Honestly, I think you handled things pretty well and I wouldn't be worried about it. But maybe next time it won't "get to you" so much... and you can grit your teeth, get through the game and call it a wash. Who knows, next time you play him you might actually have a decent time!

Those are my thoughts having been in similar situations and wishing I'd kept my cool a bit more... while by no means conceding the game or rules, but not letting it get to me and not getting upset with my opponent when he may be genuinely ignorant, play things differently, or just be having a bad day.

He never should have made it in the door without a list. Beyond that, anyone I catch intentionally cheating will get tossed immediately, if its indesputable. This has happened exactly twice in a couple dozen RTTs and dozen GTs I have been involved in operating. You have to have a rep of willing to crack down on these shennanigans or you give the green light for a whole assortment of assclowns to try it.

That said, there are a lot of passive aggressive cheaters out there who rely on obfuscation and inobvious cheating to get away with crap. Failing to remind opponents of rules that favor the opponent, being the most prime example, but there are others. This is much harder to address.

Phazael wrote:That said, there are a lot of passive aggressive cheaters out there who rely on obfuscation and inobvious cheating to get away with crap. Failing to remind opponents of rules that favor the opponent, being the most prime example, but there are others. This is much harder to address.

Wait, so your opponent forgets to roll for reserves and you don't remind him (intentionally or unintentionally) and you're cheating?
Or your opponent counts up his attacks for a charge but doesn't add the charge bonus and you don't remind him (intentionally or unintentionally) and you're cheating?

That does sound hard to address. How are you going to know intent or even if the other player knew what the correct rule was or noticed the error?

My two penn'orth:

There's no real evidence of cheating here, only misunderstanding and laziness. I've been playing for a few years, and the terrain rules still catch me out.

The point about him not bringing a list was silly. I've never played at a tournament, but I'd expect to have to bring a list in order to prove my army was legal. Writing a list certainly shouldn't eat into game time - some armies peak later in the game. So I'd agree, no list = friendly games only until list is written, auto-win for opponent for rankings.

Re: Cover. You offered a compromise, rather than getting the TO at the first instance. This was the gentlemanly thing to do, but may have been a mistake for such a key rule. The message you sent at that point was "this is up for debate, so we'll settle it amicably". His reneging on that deal was discourteous. Maybe that was another chance to get a TO over.

Re: The hill. This was a different issue to the first one. Our club counts any based object as area terrain, and the BRB says to clarify all before. Area terrain is an abstraction so, in a situation where there is scope for confusion, it's much more important to clarify (the BRB, for instance, states models have more chance of finding something to dive behind if in area terrain - I like to think that something akin to a "hull down" position takes place on a hill). If you hadn't decided beforehand, I think this should probably have been a dice-off. The BRB isn't clear on this, and your opponent has probably played different ways.

Finally, his offer to give you an advantage may have been an olive branch, rather than a calculated decision to offer something worthless. We are all terrible at hiding it when we are annoyed, so he probably sensed that something was wrong. As evidenced by your decision not even to respond.

As it looks to an outsider, he pitched up with blatantly improper planning and an incomplete understanding of the rules. He gained an advantage as a result. When he realised there was a mistake, he offered you a compromise to redress the balance.

My suggestions:

1) No list = no tournament legal play.
2) Be very clear when settling a dispute with compromise. (though it sounds like you were)
3) Agree area terrain in advance or dice off.
4) Always think the best of your opponent when trying to judge his/her motives.
5) If someone offers an olive branch, the least you can do is say "no thanks, mate."

doctorludo wrote:My two penn'orth:

As it looks to an outsider, he pitched up with blatantly improper planning and an incomplete understanding of the rules. He gained an advantage as a result. When he realised there was a mistake, he offered you a compromise to redress the balance.

My suggestions:

1) No list = no tournament legal play.
2) Be very clear when settling a dispute with compromise. (though it sounds like you were)
3) Agree area terrain in advance or dice off.
4) Always think the best of your opponent when trying to judge his/her motives.
5) If someone offers an olive branch, the least you can do is say "no thanks, mate."

I trimmed the quote: more for ease of reading. I don't think his offer of my demon princes having a cover save for the rest of the game is very valid. Once his entire army is engaged in combat, as they were, my demon princes having cover save is irrelevant to the game. That, any their standard 3+ save, is better then the 4+ cover save. His army had no way to nullify the 3+. Still, I should have just responded with "appreciated, but no thank you."

Thank you for the input. I will pass on the advise in here, definitely highlighting:
1. List before every event opens for the day. For simplicity, when you check in give a copy of a readable list to the TO. If Rd1 starts and you still don't have one. You forfeit your points for that round to your opponent. You may play for fun, but will continue to forfeit points to opponents until you write a readable army list with the spare paper and pens we provide for you.
2. A terrain listing with the cover save and how it is implemented. The Colonial GT had this in NJ when I attended. It single handedly eliminates all terrain conversations. It had visual aid's IE pictures of terrain.
3. A brief how to guide on how to settle rules despites.
4. A copy of all faq's in a binder at the shop. This is easy, as I actually have one printed, so giving to the shop is easy.
5. Time clock at every other table.

For me:
1. Breath I can think of 9-10 ways I could have handled the game in a more efficient manner. From the very beginning. Most importantly, asking for 5 minutes to walk away while the TO is talkign to the opponent to let the TO handle things.
2. Although I try to talk to my opponent, maybe finding them during the break and talk specifically about the tables, terrain, set up, questions about my army list. I always have a copy with typed out rules on the bottom. I think I can take this a step further.
3. Learn about Demonhunters. They seem confusing to play from an opponent perspective, playing them is probably hard to keep track of.
4. Electric pointer. I'll be honest, all the squating and bending is killing my back / knees. My opponents can use it to.

njpc wrote:Morning Dakka,
I am looking for general advice, how you as a player handle this, and how you think a TO would handle it. I'll give a run down of the scenario. Please give constructive feedback, as I am friends with the TO and would like to aid them moving forward for similar events.

During a ongoing escalation league we ran into the following issues. Of note, this was the final sessions, game 2 out of 3. Please keep in mind this is an escalation league where there is no paint requirement, and you are support to have printed copies of your list. The reason this is important you have to build off your prior week. So week 1 is 750, so you have to use the same units, but they can have different composition in your week 2 / 1000 pt list, can so on up to 1500.

I presented to my table to find a Grey Knight player, who I have never before met. I asked for my opponents list to which he informed me he does not have one. I asked for his former week list, figure not a huge deal as he can show me what he's added in. He responds he has never had one, and has never been asked. I mentioned this to the TO. Who asked my opponent to write a list. My opponent questions why, I point out because it helps the opponent not feel he's getting hosed, and that he has a army I am not familiar with and still learning about.

Attempt 1 resulted in a illegal list that was over points. Attempt 2 had a legal lists. Not off to a good start we start the game. My opponent steals the initiative and fires a shot at a tank through area terrain. I point out it would be a 4+ cover save does he want a new target. My opponent indicates he has never played it this way, and I point there are several tree's obstructing a straight shot in area terrain. We talked about area terrain, and he still refutes a cover save. I ask if I allow this to go, can I claim a cover safe off the 2 rifle dreads who are on a hill who will be shooting threw terrain, he says yes. I allow the shot, and lose the tank.

We got to resolve the next set of shots, he then refutes his previous offer. I'm very confused at this point. And ask clearly, hey you just said and agreed on this. He refuses, and we move on. My turn goes, we move to his. He pulls the same thing. I grab the TO. TO walks him through area terrain rules, looks at the line of sight to the tanks and mentions they are all cover saves. I mention I was trying to meet in the middle. My opponent indicates lets start the entire game over. Now this is an hour into an hour and a half game. Where most of the clock has been run by my opponent making a list. I'm ranked #2 in the escalation league total standings, and this game is going to hose me, so we move on. As I mention to the TO, that the only result that can help me is a massacre, and to do this I have to play the game. Because otherwise its getting called a draw and i'm shafted.

So turn 3 goes, I Lash my opponents units all around, setting up rapid fire, and end the lives of 2 grey knight squads, using obliterator to take out tanks, and deep strike terminators suiciding them to put my opponent back peddling. My opponent tries to claim a cover save while standing on a hill for a Dreadnaught. I ask him has he been using the Hill for elevation / lines of sight, he mentions yes. TO comes over, mentions, no, its not a cover save if your just elevated / its not declared as cover.

By turn 4 we are in combat and my opponent mentions. "I realize I probably look pretty bad, why don't I offer you a cover save for your demon princes for the rest of the game, would that make you happy." I do not even respond, as by this time, the Princes have done their job, my units are stuck in cleaning up min / maxed demon hunter squads. And there is nothing in his army that ignores my 3+ / 5+ save. Game ends. I massacre my opponent badly, full points.

After the game the opponent mentions he is a frequent GT attendee. This shocked me greatly. First, denying cover saves everywhere, even after the TO has chimed in. No list from someone having gone to a GT? My opponent also spend 30 minutes talking about the statistical advantages he implements with dice rolls, and how his researches dice. All round he seemed like a power gamer trying to cheat to win, which was really disappointing. I admit, I got louder then normal, and think I was pretty beat red, so i'm using this as learning experience for myself as well on how to deal with this in the future.

Here starts another problem. The opponent that played my current opponent in Game 1 that same day is upset. Its clear my opponent played him over points, he wants a resolution. The result was the TO "talked to the player" after the event. He is able to play in the next escalation league. This seems problematic to me, so here are my suggestions.

1. Implement the "no list, no play" rules
2. Immediately eject players from the league for blatent cheating
3. Ban the kid from 1 session of events to prove a point.

Any other suggestions from other Dakkittes?

Wussy. He has defamed your honor. Now he must be challenged to a whippy stick duel mano o mano

I would always suggest copies of army lists are kept with the TO as well as the player. Especially when in this case you are building each weeks list from the previous weeks one, it also makes it easy to check off before each round starts exactly who has army lists. The TO can then check them for legality quickly if a query arises.

Troy wrote:
Wussy. He has defamed your honor. Now he must be challenged to a whippy stick duel mano o mano

Way to quote the whole thing to make a silly interwebs joke. lol

I don't have my book with me, but isn't there a line in the BGB about being required to hand over a list if you are asked for one?

I could be confused about an older edition...

If I was the TO I would:

1) Lecture him on the reality of the situation, that he isn't fooling anyone, and to knock off trying to pull this crap.

2) Tell everyone that no list in this type of event is a forfeit.

3) Enforce #2

4) Give him double secret probabation, and boot him the next time he tries to pull something.

5) Watch his next games carefully.

One tool shouldn't be given the ability to kill a league.

mikhaila wrote:If I was the TO I would:

1) Lecture him on the reality of the situation, that he isn't fooling anyone, and to knock off trying to pull this crap.

2) Tell everyone that no list in this type of event is a forfeit.

3) Enforce #2

4) Give him double secret probabation, and boot him the next time he tries to pull something.

5) Watch his next games carefully.

One tool shouldn't be given the ability to kill a league.

Oh nos!!!!! Not double secret probation!!! Damn you Wormer!!!!

I think "secret" simply implies he doesn't anounce it to everyone (as someone else said above, that doesn't really help the situation any) but just lets the person know they're not welcome at the next two events.

RiTides wrote:I think "secret" simply implies he doesn't anounce it to everyone (as someone else said above, that doesn't really help the situation any) but just lets the person know they're not welcome at the next two events.

What no one's seen Animal House? (I'm pretty sure thats the refrance Mikhaila was going for, Wormer was the a-hole Dean of the school that put them on "double secret probation")

Call me an ass, but I don't see how this behavior is remotely acceptable from anyone attending any sort of event. I've seen it come to shouting matches at tournaments and those in authority still won't do what's necessary. If the individual is a detriment to the tournament at large, they need to be warned. If that doesn't get through, they need to be removed. I'd rather be the guy that misses out on a game than have to deal with some cheesy feth trying to cheat me any way he can. I'm too young to have to be worrying about my blood pressure.

EDIT: And, seriously, no list? Did he even want to actually play the game, or was he there to piss people off?

GK?
No List?
Poor understanding of Rules?
He lost

Karma
She's a b*tch

RiTides wrote:I think "secret" simply implies he doesn't anounce it to everyone (as someone else said above, that doesn't really help the situation any) but just lets the person know they're not welcome at the next two events.

Son, going to sit you down, hand you a couple of beers, and make you watch animal house with me, next time you're up.

Kids

Come on, Grimgob, did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? There may still be hope for them yet!

I really hope that you were joking on this one, because if you weren't you REALLY need to hit up a history book or two

sharkticon wrote:Come on, Grimgob, did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? There may still be hope for them yet!

Dam the germans and their kamikaze submarines! Maybe the player was just trying to act cool even though he was new and just got smashed.

If an opponent shows up for a game and does not have a list, he has forfeited the game in my book.

He may spend the time he would have spent on the game writing a list, and if's he's fast enough, you guys can get in a non-binding game for fun within the timeframe of the original game to kill time.