Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ascalam wrote:I really hope that you were joking on this one, because if you weren't you REALLY need to hit up a history book or two

Same movie dude. its the speech Bluto (John Bulushi) gives when they get kicked out of school. It is kind of funny people took you serious though Sharkticon

mikhaila wrote:Son, going to sit you down, hand you a couple of beers, and make you watch animal house with me, next time you're up.

Haha sorry guys! We should probably let this thread steer back on topic now that I've been enlightened

mikhaila wrote:If I was the TO I would:

1) Lecture him on the reality of the situation, that he isn't fooling anyone, and to knock off trying to pull this crap.
2) Tell everyone that no list in this type of event is a forfeit.
3) Enforce #2
4) Give him double secret probabation, and boot him the next time he tries to pull something.
5) Watch his next games carefully.

One tool shouldn't be given the ability to kill a league.

One of the main reasons I love attending your events. And scary enough, will finally be playing 40K at your tournments soon as my army is finally up and running

I think many people forget, in a small tourney, the TO and the Store Owner have conflicting interests.

The TO wants to run a well-run event with integrity...

The Store Owner wants to please unreasonable customers...

All it takes is for you to 'disqualify' someone from a tourney for no lost and the store owner to say "Come on, he is a customer, can't you figure it out?" Many TO's have rules they can't enforce, especially if it requires kicking someone out of an event as a Store owner may see it as kicking someone out of the store.

Most GTs are so successful as they are not held 'in a store' so the TO very much can enforce what he wants and how he wants. Many RTTs suffer from being a one-day event at a store and there is pressure to let things slide, like appearance requirements, list issues and other rules which a Store Owner doesn't want customers kicked out over.

I think this is why we see Hard Boyz being such a trainwreck disaster in some locations due to the conflicting interests.

pretre wrote:

Phazael wrote:That said, there are a lot of passive aggressive cheaters out there who rely on obfuscation and inobvious cheating to get away with crap. Failing to remind opponents of rules that favor the opponent, being the most prime example, but there are others. This is much harder to address.

Wait, so your opponent forgets to roll for reserves and you don't remind him (intentionally or unintentionally) and you're cheating?
Or your opponent counts up his attacks for a charge but doesn't add the charge bonus and you don't remind him (intentionally or unintentionally) and you're cheating?

That does sound hard to address. How are you going to know intent or even if the other player knew what the correct rule was or noticed the error?

Intentionally failing to remind is what pretre was talking about, I'm sure. And I agree. It can't be enforced, but if I see something my opponent is forgetting, I will make an effort to remind them. I want to beat them because of superior decision-making and execution, not because they forgot to do something that was already determined. Forgetting Null Zone/Hammerhand at the start of the phase, lining a unit 1 inch from my gunline and forgeting to assault, etc. It just seems so cheap to win that way.

nkelsch wrote:I think many people forget, in a small tourney, the TO and the Store Owner have conflicting interests.

The TO wants to run a well-run event with integrity...

The Store Owner wants to please unreasonable customers...

All it takes is for you to 'disqualify' someone from a tourney for no lost and the store owner to say "Come on, he is a customer, can't you figure it out?" Many TO's have rules they can't enforce, especially if it requires kicking someone out of an event as a Store owner may see it as kicking someone out of the store.Most GTs are so successful as they are not held 'in a store' so the TO very much can enforce what he wants and how he wants. Many RTTs suffer from being a one-day event at a store and there is pressure to let things slide, like appearance requirements, list issues and other rules which a Store Owner doesn't want customers kicked out over.I think this is why we see Hard Boyz being such a trainwreck disaster in some locations due to the conflicting interests.

News to me

Maybe store owners without a clue do this? Pleasing one unreasonable customer will displease the dozen reasonable ones who have to put up with the guy bending or breaking the rules. A dozen people buy more than one person. Cater to the unreasonable people and you end up with a store only populated by only the unreaonable.

I have it easier, wearing both the store owner and TO hats at once. For TO's running events in stores, it's essential to talk to the store owner/manager and set some rules and guildelines in advance. Then communicate all rules to the players. Make sure they know what is required, and what the penalties might be.

mikhaila wrote:

News to me

Maybe store owners without a clue do this? Pleasing one unreasonable customer will displease the dozen reasonable ones who have to put up with the guy bending or breaking the rules. A dozen people buy more than one person. Cater to the unreasonable people and you end up with a store only populated by only the unreasonable.

I have it easier, wearing both the store owner and TO hats at once. For TO's running events in stores, it's essential to talk to the store owner/manager and set some rules and guildelines in advance. Then communicate all rules to the players. Make sure they know what is required, and what the penalties might be.

I didn't say 'good' store owners...

Just saying store owners who don't know or care much about a tourney, and has someone from the community trying to run an event and paying customers complaining.

I have seen it tons of times where a kid shows up without painted models and the event requires painting... the owner tells the store owner to 'allow them in'. Same goes with invalid lists. The dozens of stories about Hard Boyz prove this scenario happens... 'someone' is running the event, and the store owners are not really informed or invested and force the TO to do whatever 'keeps customers happy.' Allowing people to participate in Hard boys 1000 points down or fudging lists and the way byes were handled all show the major issue with the RTT one-day format and TO vs Store Owner.

And I agree... stores caving to unreasonable customers lead to an exodus of the reasonable. But if the reasonable is a person in your store for 1 day who you never see again and the unreasonable is a paying customer who is there all the time, and the Store owner is not aware of the 'politics' of the gaming community, I can see why they would pressure the TO and not support a TO throwing people out for any reason.

Can any of us actually say we would quit and walk out if forced to play against no list, point values and the TO was letting people participate without following the rules? Very few people will simply walk out but everyone wants those other people thrown out. Maybe if people did walk out, Store owners would be much more willing to support TOs who eject players for not following rules or not being prepared to participate. The thing is you can't always blame the TO. It isn't always in his control.

I think the usual response would be for people to not attend / avoid attending events at that store, or events run by that TO, depending on the case... rather than walk out on an event they already paid for / drove to participate in / etc.

I ran a league for about 5 brutal months. There is a ton of problems with league play that pop up if rules are not balanced or "ruled over with an iron fist" by the TO. The main problem I ran into were new players not knowing the rules, and the problem of new codexes coming out. I wrote the whole league rules in about a day, then spent a week, rewriting them over and over checking for any problems, tweaking to not give an advantage to one army over the other. Most thought the scenarios were good, a few complained about a few things, but that was to be expected.

As for your "problem guy", he should not have been allowed to play. If he claims he goes to GT all the time, well....then he probably goes and looks around, but doesn't play. Any game even friendly ones I have a list on hand. Even if it just a pencil whipped quick version. I always ask for my opponents list unless I have played them over and over, and even then I ask if any changes have been made. It sounds to me, that he is a win at all cost guy, that doesn't mind cheating to get an advantage. We have only ever really had one case of this at my FLGS and it was from a player that just showed up one day. He decided to bump his models closer and closer whenever his opponent wasn't looking. His game was forfeited, and he never returned.

I played a kid at Ard Boyz this past sat who did the exact same deal to me.

I didn't really care, mostly because a person who cheats is usually someone who rolls dice when he picks them up or won't mention rules when you don't know. They are also someone who will try and use an ability that isn't in their list and play dumb when you call them out.

A kid being confused about cover and trying to play its reasoning to his benefit isn't a typical cheater, though not having a list present and then making one is total BS.