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After reading a thread in another forum, I concluded that not everyone considers the same thing to be cheating. Personally I considered it cheating, when 1. Done on purpose, 2. To gain an advantage.

Just to give a few examples of things I have done or had done to mean. To tell me if anyone was cheating. After a few post I will give the back story.

Example A:

After a game had finished one of the players determined that one of the list was over by 150pts. Points level for the game was 1500pts? Did someone Cheat?



Example B:

Bug player keep wanting to run his units during his movement phase. Also in assaults would move a few models of a unit, then move models of a second unit into the same combat. Then he would move the rest of both units. Did someone Cheat?

Example C:

Player never had a list. Units always seemed to have just the right wargear needed. Did someone Cheat?

Example D:

Player would spend a lot of time in a tournament arguing basic rules? (Basic being does a power weapon and pistol give +1 attack) Did he Cheat?


So you all tell me if someone or anyone Cheated.

Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

A. Cheated. It could have been accidental. I've made mistakes with lists, too. However, the person that was over should forfeit the game (if he won) and conceed full points to the other player (if in a tournament or campaign).

B1. (running in the moving phase) Cheated. It's possible he's not clear with the rules. However, to speed along the game, I don't typically have an issue with this. However, if the person is doing this for an unfair advantage, i.e. moving and running with unit A so that a nearby unit B isn't bottle-necked, then no sir.

B2. (Moving 2 units into assault piece-meal). Cheated. You move ALL of unit A, then unit B. If Unit B can't get into assault, tuff luck!

C. No list = no game. Full stop right there.

D. Could be a new player. Don't call new players cheaters. Just correct them. If you think they are stalling, call a TO over immediately.

I think you missed my first sentence. I told you when I think its cheating. getting caught is not one of them.

jbunny wrote:I think you missed my first sentence. I told you when I think its cheating. getting caught is not one of them.

? Not sure what you're trying to convey with this post.

He was replying to me, and I did miss it. I still don't know why ask, though. Please just post your story so we can all tell you that you are rightfully indignant.

There is a difference between cheating and mistakes. Rules get broken all the time, the difference is intent. If someone knowingly omits or misrepresents a rule they are cheating. I think some people throw the cheater label pretty fast when often times it is a mistake. Intent is the key to all of the examples you have provided.

a) Did they know they were 150pts over? If so, then they cheated. If they claim otherwise and say it was an accident, then they should lose the match regardless of what actually happened during it (not really important for a friendly game but important for a tourney). If you're over the point limit, you pay the price.

b) Did the other player correct them that running occurs in the shooting phase? Did the other player correct them regarding the proper movement of units into assault? If so and they kept doing it then they were cheating. Its a different situation if both players agree to change the rules (not cheating) compared with one person unilaterally changing them (cheating).

c) Not having a list isn't cheating in and of itself but allows easy cheating during the game. I played a guy at my old FLGS in 3rd edition who always ran a greater demon with the old 3rd edition codex in which the demon was assigned to a specific champion. If that champion died, the demon appeared but had some disadvantage (wounded and/or had to make instability checks every round... can't recall the exact details). Both times I played the guy, I focused my fire and assaults on units with champions to prevent the demon from coming in full strength, whitling the available squads down every round till one was left, at which point the player promptly told me convienently that the last one was INDEED the one with the demon. The first time I didn't mention anything as I didn't want to make a bad impression and accuse him of cheating but asked him prior to the next game to write down which squad had the demon for the next game. The next week, he scribbled a few illegible words on a scrap of paper that (even when HE read them back because I couldn't) didn't specifically refer to one unit (he had three units of chaos space marines with champions and supposedly wrote "chaos marines" as his unit designation). I simply politely declined further offers to play him from then on. Not everyone who comes without a list is planning to cheat but, if they are, it makes their job a whole lot easier.

d) No, not cheating. I've met and played with/versus people who are incredibly friendly but simply can't get the hang of the rules. There was a guy at my old store who ONLY played marines weekly for a year yet still argued with you every time his marines failed morale and ran because they shouldn't due to the adjectives in ATSKNF. It's annoying but its not cheating unless they're doing it on purpose to stall.

lord_blackfang wrote:Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

What gives you the impression that people posting in the tournament discussions forum view cheating as cheating only if you get caught? I know people love bashing tournament players around here, but implying that they condone cheating is pretty low.

Did someone cheat...unfair advantage? Cheater. You don't have to mean to do it, you just have to do something that is not in the rules. Will I get mad over it...depends on what happened. 5 pts over in an 1850 game while technicaly cheating I probably won't care unless its a tournament. I think the more important thing is was it intentional and is it a tournament. With that said...
Example A: Cheating. This is way to many points and it would bug me if I was over (made a mistake similar but it was a friendly game and I promptly appologized and we are still friends), and it would be bothersome if they "convinently found out" after the game ended.

Example B: Technically it's cheating. Would I care? Probably not assuming he gains no advantage from the run. The second part is also technically cheating, however assuming that moving the model doesn't change anything (ie the squad would have been able to assault anyway) I really wouldn't care.

Example C: In a tournament this is a no-no. If I play games against someone alot I don't need to see a list everytime, but if I haven't played you ever or in a while I would like to see one. I normally keep mine on my phone and have it sitting there all game for my opponent to look at.

Example D: It depends. Is he new? Then no I would let it go, but I would prefer that even a rookie would know the basic stuff before hopping into a tournament. Is it an experienced player trying to avoid a massacre and limit himself to a major loss. Then I'm saying he is cheating the tournament rules and getting a TO.

augustus5 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

What gives you the impression that people posting in the tournament discussions forum view cheating as cheating only if you get caught? I know people love bashing tournament players around here, but implying that they condone cheating is pretty low.

Didn't you know? Everyone that plays tournaments is a WAAC jerk who will cheat and rules lawyer to get what they want.

And everyone that plays casually is a living paragon of how the game is supposed to be played, never making a mistake, having a rules argument or attempting to get one over on someone else.

Suggesting otherwise is an offense on Dakka, punishable by being WRONG.

augustus5 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

What gives you the impression that people posting in the tournament discussions forum view cheating as cheating only if you get caught? I know people love bashing tournament players around here, but implying that they condone cheating is pretty low.

Based on this thread, the first and last discussion I participated in there.

Can we get the story now or is OP just fishing for replies?

"Cheat" is such a loaded word... I'd say by far the only clear cut case is #1, and even then, it's possible it was unintentional. Maybe he swapped out a unit, didn't carry the 1 when adding up the points, etc etc?

I'm trying to use that word less... and just work out any situation based on its' merits alone and, as another poster said, not attribute motive to actions. It's really hard to know a person's intentions, but it's easy to correct their actions within the rules when/where needed.

Leave it at that, imo... no need to call someone a "cheater".


Case in point: I played against a completely illeagal army for fantasy (they had 4 units of plague censer bearers). Somehow, I didn't realize it until afterwards, as I had only glanced at their list, and we played the entire game (with me losing terribly!) before I noticed when packing up.

Explanation: 8th edition was fairly new, he was an infrequent player, and I guess hadn't noticed that only 3 repeat special units are allowed.

Imo, many, many situations have a reasonable explanation like this... and the "C"-word shouldn't be brought into it.

jbunny wrote:Example A:

After a game had finished one of the players determined that one of the list was over by 150pts. Points level for the game was 1500pts? Did someone Cheat?

If the player knew he was over, and failed to point it out to his opponent before the game, then yes, that would be cheating. If it was an honest mistake, then no... it's just not putting enough care into his army list design.

Example B:

Bug player keep wanting to run his units during his movement phase. Also in assaults would move a few models of a unit, then move models of a second unit into the same combat. Then he would move the rest of both units. Did someone Cheat?

This would really come down to the specific situation. Did the other player know that running doesn't happen in the movement phase? If they did, did they choose to allow it anyway?

If both players agree to alter the rules, that's not cheating.

Example C:

Player never had a list. Units always seemed to have just the right wargear needed. Did someone Cheat?

I've never understood why anyone would even consider starting a game against an opponent without a written list in the first place.

In this situation, though, it would only be cheating if the player was actually 'altering' his list on the fly. Impossible to call without more information.

Example D:

Player would spend a lot of time in a tournament arguing basic rules? (Basic being does a power weapon and pistol give +1 attack) Did he Cheat?

Was he doing it to gain some sort of advantage, or just because he's not really familiar with the rules?

Do these questions really need answered? Common sense trumps.

As for Example D though: it depends. Like as been said, might be a new player, might be someone trying to stall. Not too hard to spot a staller.

RiTides wrote:"Cheat" is such a loaded word... I'd say by far the only clear cut case is #1, and even then, it's possible it was unintentional. Maybe he swapped out a unit, didn't carry the 1 when adding up the points, etc etc?

I'm trying to use that word less... and just work out any situation based on its' merits alone and, as another poster said, not attribute motive to actions. It's really hard to know a person's intentions, but it's easy to correct their actions within the rules when/where needed.

Leave it at that, imo... no need to call someone a "cheater".


Case in point: I played against a completely illeagal army for fantasy (they had 4 units of plague censer bearers). Somehow, I didn't realize it until afterwards, as I had only glanced at their list, and we played the entire game (with me losing terribly!) before I noticed when packing up.

Explanation: 8th edition was fairly new, he was an infrequent player, and I guess hadn't noticed that only 3 repeat special units are allowed.

Imo, many, many situations have a reasonable explanation like this... and the "C"-word shouldn't be brought into it.

QFT. I know that I have come home from a tournament, thought about what happened and immediately gone to, "I got cheated!" when I remember something that happened. Then I digress, because I think of a few different things:

1. Intent
2. The opposing player (was he trying shady things all game?)
3. Could I have stopped him?

Intent - Did it seemed like he meant to do it? Or was it something that was a slip of the mind? Were we moving quickly through an assault and he got 5 more attacks than he should have? If so, whose fault is that? The person that counted the attacks, or the person that let him swing 5 extra times? I think there is room here for honest mistakes.

The opposing player - Was he fudging his rules all game? Or was this a one-time slip? Did the guy seem to be stretching the rules in his favor at every turn, or did something fall his way and both of you didn't catch it? Or, did one of you catch it, but all too late? I have been in a situation when I realized something had happened in my favor, but it had long since past or it was something that we glazed over. There is no way to tell if it would have affected a game one way or the other, but it makes me feel terrible that it happened, because I know the rules and I play fairly.

Could I have stopped him? - If I give my opponent an advantage by me not knowing the rules, I could expect him to correct me if I am in the wrong, but if he doesn't, can I fault him? If I tell him that he has a cover save, when he actually doesn't, but he doesn't correct me, is he cheating?

That's why "cheating" is a loaded word. I don't think it is as clear-cut as everyone is making it out to be. To say that someone who had been playing fairly all game moved 7" instead of 6" is a cheat is a little harsh and generalizing, especially for those that weren't playing in that game, don't understand the situation and didn't know the rapport that the two players had with each other.

lord_blackfang wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

What gives you the impression that people posting in the tournament discussions forum view cheating as cheating only if you get caught? I know people love bashing tournament players around here, but implying that they condone cheating is pretty low.

Based on this thread, the first and last discussion I participated in there.

Can we get the story now or is OP just fishing for replies?

So based on the one thread you admit to participating in, inside of the tournament discussions board, you feel validated in implying that those who post there condone cheating?

puma713 wrote:That's why "cheating" is a loaded word. I don't think it is as clear-cut as everyone is making it out to be. To say that someone who had been playing fairly all game moved 7" instead of 6" is a cheat is a little harsh and generalizing, especially for those that weren't playing in that game, don't understand the situation and didn't know the repoire that the two players had with each other.

There certainly is a distinction between honest and intentional mistakes. But then what's the correct word for not winning a game when you should have, if you can't say you got cheated?


augustus5, I'm sorry you were offended by my post, but I'm trying to cut down on the number of off-topic arguments I let myself get dragged into because someone can't get over one off-hand remark. Maybe next week.

Man handled.

My point was that not all cases are clear cut "Your cheating". They need some back story.

A. Friendly game. I showed up to the game store with a 2000pt list. After having to change my list 3 times because people could not agree on the points, I deployed a Dread, that was in another list, by mistake. I did not realize it until later when I was talking shop with another buddy. And while it was a fun game, I considered it a loss as I was way over on points.

B. and D were the same player. Experienced player who keeping running units in the wrong phase even when told by the opponent not to. The final straw was the multi-assault done incorrect. After several mins of arguing the opponent quit the game in fustration. He also argued thinks like power weapons even though he knew he was wrong just hoping people would given in instead of waste time looking in the book.

C. No doubt a cheater in my opinion. Never tried the no list in a tournament but he tried in in every friendly game he played.

Lord Black fang@ Sorry my work schedule does not allow me to post the exact moment some randomly picked number of post are made to this thread. Consdiering its only been about an hour I think you could of waited on the fishing comments.

Everyone else@ Thanks for realizing that just because you break the rules does not mean you are a cheater.

lord_blackfang wrote:But then what's the correct word for not winning a game when you should have, if you can't say you got cheated?

That's my point - how do you even know you got "cheated", to say that you did? At the ATC, I played a Grey Knights player that shot me up with 4 Bloodstrike missiles. Did he mean to do it? I don't know. He didn't cheat in any other manner. He knew his rules - he played quickly and measured accurately. He beat me soundly. But then I realized that he shot me with Bloodstrike missiles and I never said a word about it.

Whose fault is it? His, that he was mistaken about his codex (or worse), or mine, that I allowed him to do it? I could have easily said, "Grey Knights don't have Bloodstrike Missiles." When someone loses and it may or may not be because someone else fudged a rule, it is easy to point a finger and deflect blame. It is easy to think the other person may have done it on purpose, especially in a tournament setting.

In my situation above, I take full responsibility.

lord_blackfang wrote:

puma713 wrote:That's why "cheating" is a loaded word. I don't think it is as clear-cut as everyone is making it out to be. To say that someone who had been playing fairly all game moved 7" instead of 6" is a cheat is a little harsh and generalizing, especially for those that weren't playing in that game, don't understand the situation and didn't know the repoire that the two players had with each other.

There certainly is a distinction between honest and intentional mistakes. But then what's the correct word for not winning a game when you should have, if you can't say you got cheated?


augustus5, I'm sorry you were offended by my post, but I'm trying to cut down on the number of off-topic arguments I let myself get dragged into because someone can't get over one off-hand remark. Maybe next week.

I realize my comment to you was off-topic, but it really takes some nerve to call out people who post to the tournament discussions board as condoning cheating and then offer as your only support, a single thread you posted in. Of course, it's easy to pick on tourney players around here, as many seem to have a low opinion of them. Bravo!

lord_blackfang wrote:There certainly is a distinction between honest and intentional mistakes. But then what's the correct word for not winning a game when you should have, if you can't say you got cheated?

Can you point to a situation where you can say without a shadow of a doubt that you would have won if that one single situation had been ruled differently?

Unless the ruling is determining Victory conditions at the end of the game, there's really no way to make that call.

augustus5, I'm sorry you were offended by my post, but I'm trying to cut down on the number of off-topic arguments I let myself get dragged into because someone can't get over one off-hand remark.

The easy way to do that is to not make offensive off-hand remarks...

jbunny wrote:After reading a thread in another forum, I concluded that not everyone considers the same thing to be cheating. Personally I considered it cheating, when 1. Done on purpose, 2. To gain an advantage.

Just to give a few examples of things I have done or had done to mean. To tell me if anyone was cheating. After a few post I will give the back story.

Example A:

After a game had finished one of the players determined that one of the list was over by 150pts. Points level for the game was 1500pts? Did someone Cheat?



Example B:

Bug player keep wanting to run his units during his movement phase. Also in assaults would move a few models of a unit, then move models of a second unit into the same combat. Then he would move the rest of both units. Did someone Cheat?

Example C:

Player never had a list. Units always seemed to have just the right wargear needed. Did someone Cheat?

Example D:

Player would spend a lot of time in a tournament arguing basic rules? (Basic being does a power weapon and pistol give +1 attack) Did he Cheat?


So you all tell me if someone or anyone Cheated.

Those examples are pretty generic.

It's based on context of the situation, but some of them just shouldn't need discussion.

-No Army list? What are they playing then?

Arguing? What did that have to do with the overall game?

Mixing units? Could you tell the difference between the two units?

You can't really call it cheating when your examples are just bad form, and not really clear cut in the execution.

if someone has no list you should not even play until a judge tally's up the points cost then play

if someone argues the basic rules docent mean hes cheating get others input he might be new to the game!

if they contest everything you do to their army and negate things that they did to your army the are cheating.... boot that noob!

and the #1 rule CARRY A RULE BOOK IT NEVER LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kronk wrote:C. No list = no game. Full stop right there.

QFT. I'm willing to look past your marines that are just legs glued to bases, your drop pod soda cans, your dubious grasp of the rules, your inability to measure, and your fragrant aroma, but if you show up to a game without a list, we're not playing. It's like showing up to a hockey game without sticks. All you've done is annoy me, and wasted my time; time I could have spent finding a game against someone who will respect the game in general and me in specific.

jbunny wrote:
Personally I considered it cheating, when 1. Done on purpose, 2. To gain an advantage.

This feels like a pretty good definition of cheating to me.

jbunny wrote:
Example A:

After a game had finished one of the players determined that one of the list was over by 150pts. Points level for the game was 1500pts? Did someone Cheat?

No, because it was accidental and the player admitted to it. If he makes a habit of doing this sort of thing and only owns it when he's caught, he's a cheating cheater who cheats. If it happens once in a while and he admits it as soon as possible, it's just an accident.

jbunny wrote:
Example B:

Bug player keep wanting to run his units during his movement phase. Also in assaults would move a few models of a unit, then move models of a second unit into the same combat. Then he would move the rest of both units. Did someone Cheat?

Not cheating, exactly. Rather, I'd say that he's employing poor game etiquette that could lead to mistakes.

Now, if he's doing this because it's worked for him in the past, creating "mistakes" that benefit him, then he's kind of cheating. He's semi-intentionally creating situations that benefit him unfairly. If he's got any integrity, he'll break himself of the habit ASAP. If he were a buddy of mine, I'd insist he start playing a little more by the book or stop playing with him.

jbunny wrote:
Example C:

Player never had a list. Units always seemed to have just the right wargear needed. Did someone Cheat?

No list, no game, unless I'm playing with someone I really know and trust. You can't prove he's a cheater, but his insistence on playing this way - in such a way that you can't prove it - tends to imply it.

jbunny wrote:
Example D:

Player would spend a lot of time in a tournament arguing basic rules? (Basic being does a power weapon and pistol give +1 attack) Did he Cheat?

What do you mean "arguing basic rules." Do you mean "attempting to burn time so that his army can win by timing out the game?" Because that's definitely cheating and I would call shenanigans.

insaniak wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:There certainly is a distinction between honest and intentional mistakes. But then what's the correct word for not winning a game when you should have, if you can't say you got cheated?

Can you point to a situation where you can say without a shadow of a doubt that you would have won if that one single situation had been ruled differently?

1 kill point is all it takes. Or reaching one extra objective. The smallest thing can swing the game. One extra shot, one fudged charge move.

lord_blackfang wrote:1 kill point is all it takes. Or reaching one extra objective. The smallest thing can swing the game. One extra shot, one fudged charge move.

The point was, though, that unless that little thing is happening as you are tallying up the points at the end of the game, there is really no way to say whether it would have won you the game.

Yes, getting an extra shot might have won you the game. Or it might have missed.

insaniak wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:1 kill point is all it takes. Or reaching one extra objective. The smallest thing can swing the game. One extra shot, one fudged charge move.

The point was, though, that unless that little thing is happening as you are tallying up the points at the end of the game, there is really no way to say whether it would have won you the game.

Yes, getting an extra shot might have won you the game. Or it might have missed.

But an enemy taking an extra shot he wasn't entitled to and getting a kill point out of it can be pretty clear-cut if it happens towards the end of the game. And sometimes the margin of victory is also important, so even if you still win that match, getting gypped on KP/VP can cost you in overall placing in a tournament.