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Finley's (in our local GW) 700 point, 500 point list, with upgrades which arnt options and a dread with uber melta (4D6 and +3 to the damage chart, pretty much what ever he needed to kill the enemy tank). He usualy trys it on the noobie kids and leaves the more experienced onces. He's about 11 or 12 but come down ALL the time and has done fora few years now, so you kinda get used to him. Even after I beat his 200 point over list he accused me of cheating.

I agree with everyone saying "Cheating" requires intent. Making mistakes, both in terms of army lists and in terms of rules, is bad, but isn't cheating if it's accidental we've all made mistakes at some point.

I'd also add that the context of the game changes the threshold for how strictly you have to follow the rules.
If in a tourney or league, you must obey all rules to the letter. You can bend them a bit, with opponent's consent, but only in ways to speed up the game. No house rules at all (unless the entire tourney/league has them).
If in a random pickup game, you must obey all rules, unless consent is given by both players. House rules are allowed, with agreement by both players. But, the default is still to obey all rules to the letter.
If in a friendly game with known opponent, rules become somewhat optional. You can basically do anything, with opponent's permission. House rules are encouraged, and bending the rules to speed the game up is assumed.

RiTides wrote:

Case in point: I played against a completely illeagal army for fantasy (they had 4 units of plague censer bearers). Somehow, I didn't realize it until afterwards, as I had only glanced at their list, and we played the entire game (with me losing terribly!) before I noticed when packing up.
Explanation: 8th edition was fairly new, he was an infrequent player, and I guess hadn't noticed that only 3 repeat special units are allowed.

I might be mistaken but doesnt 8th edition rely on % not a cap number of units like 7th ed? Therefore being perfectly legal to have 4 units as long as it met the % requirements.

As for the post at hand:

A) Seems like an honest mistake UNLESS this was already an issue that was sbought up to that player & he did not adjust it. Either way if it was a torney game they should forfeit any points.

B) How long did it take for them to understand that you cant run in the movement phase? I woukld have corrected him the 1st time & thats it, no use complaininhg if you did nothing to fix it.

C) Only 1 thing worse than an opponent with no list = An opponent with a list that has a) no individual points caost, b) no specific equiptment e.i. not showing which powers your Libby has (allows for max cheating potential) No list = no game from me period.

D) I for one have seen many players both new & vets forget a rule (including myself) so I dont think its cheating.

WeeDawgNYC wrote:
I might be mistaken but doesnt 8th edition rely on % not a cap number of units like 7th ed? Therefore being perfectly legal to have 4 units as long as it met the % requirements.

It does have % caps on unit types, but there is also a hard cap: no more than 3 of each Special choice and 2 of each Rare choice.

lord_blackfang wrote:Did someone gain an unfair advantage? Then he cheated. How can you even ask, or did you spend too much time in the Tournament Discussions forum and they convinced you that it's only cheating if you get caught?

That's not true. Not factually speaking.
It's only cheating if it's done to gain advantage.
Even if they HAPPENED to gain advantage, that doesn't make it the same.


IMO, the answer to all 4 -A, B, C & D- is that it depends on the dircumstances.

It's possible that any one of them could be an instance of cheating, but not enough information was given in any instance to truly know.

Eric

lord_blackfang wrote:

It does have % caps on unit types, but there is also a hard cap: no more than 3 of each Special choice and 2 of each Rare choice.

Really? Was this rule abn Faq/Erratta, because it doesnt say this in the rulebook.

WeeDawgNYC wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

It does have % caps on unit types, but there is also a hard cap: no more than 3 of each Special choice and 2 of each Rare choice.

Really? Was this rule abn Faq/Erratta, because it doesnt say this in the rulebook.

Sure it does. Keep reading onto the next page.

see Duplicate Choices on pg135

jbunny wrote:
Example A:

After a game had finished one of the players determined that one of the list was over by 150pts. Points level for the game was 1500pts? Did someone Cheat?

Cheated. Did not play by the rules, and gained an advantage for it.

Example B:

Bug player keep wanting to run his units during his movement phase. Also in assaults would move a few models of a unit, then move models of a second unit into the same combat. Then he would move the rest of both units. Did someone Cheat?

Unclear. Generally running during the movement phase does not have an impact on the game and will actually speed things up, as you only need to move each unit once. I view it as a valid reason to circumvent the rules, as there is no advantage gained beyond getting to play more of the game, which benefits both players. Not sure what you mean by move a few models, and then move models of a second unit. Is this a legal time to be moving models, and if so, are they being moved in a legal way? From the looks of it, you're implying they moved some of unit A, then unit B, then the rest of unit A. I do not believe that is allowed per the rules. I'm not sure whether it would have caused an advantage. I would probably not be okay with it, but it depends on how much it breaks the game.

Example C:

Player never had a list. Units always seemed to have just the right wargear needed. Did someone Cheat?

Unclear. I would probably assume so though. This is why we have lists.

Example D:

Player would spend a lot of time in a tournament arguing basic rules? (Basic being does a power weapon and pistol give +1 attack) Did he Cheat?

I've met a painful number of people who play at a tournament level who have no grasp on basic rules. I can play four games, and catch maybe one opponent who understands how cover and LOS work now vs. 4th edition. I'm going to say not cheating, but only because I've come to expect it. Doesn't mean I like it though.

EDIT: Additional clarification - The reason why I make it sound like I'm so on the fence about it is because I do consider "Purposefully delaying the game" to be cheating, which this accomplishes very quickly.

Deadalus,

I consider B cheating as I have seen many times a player be able to run a unit ahead to open up the path for units behind it. Also if you know exactly where a unit will be after the run before you move the models it does give an unfair advantage.

Example: If I know that I roll a 3, then I have a 9" Move to measure out. I know can better tell if I am in assault range of a unit or not. If not, then I will move to a more defensive position on the board.

lord_blackfang wrote:But an enemy taking an extra shot he wasn't entitled to and getting a kill point out of it can be pretty clear-cut if it happens towards the end of the game.

Sure. Or if he hadn't taken that shot, he might have done something else instead that got him the kill point anyway.

I'm not disputing that a game can end differently if different actions are taken. I'm disputing that you can in anything other than fairly rare, specific situations claim with any certainty that you would definitely have won if something was done differently.

jbunny wrote:Deadalus,

I consider B cheating as I have seen many times a player be able to run a unit ahead to open up the path for units behind it. Also if you know exactly where a unit will be after the run before you move the models it does give an unfair advantage.

Example: If I know that I roll a 3, then I have a 9" Move to measure out. I know can better tell if I am in assault range of a unit or not. If not, then I will move to a more defensive position on the board.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Maybe if you commit to the move by virtue of moving a single guy to the spot, and then roll the run die to determine where you ran to, just so that you can only deviate by a max of d6"?

Nah, that's pretty complicated. I get your point though. Typically the only times I've done it or seen it done is when the target is so obvious that both players knew intent and that was not deviated from. That is, I've never seen it applied to such a 'grey area' before.