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How hard of a stickler should the TO be (and the other players I suppose as well) about really one of the only rules for the Ard Boyz tourney?

As an example: Is a squadron of tanks without sponsons (modeled) permissible if the points were paid for the sponsons? (yes they all have heavy bolters, except that one which has flamers, etc)

Not to be anal, but really isn't that the only rule, WYSIWYG? (besides not being a total sod of course)


Just wondering, as I ran into some of that during the Prelims, wondering how others would handle it/expect during the SemiFinals.

Being on the recieving end of complains about WSYWIG (I used a non-GW sniper model and some storm troopers for "counts as" Psykers) I at first felt like my opponents were only upset when they lost..

"Hell.. that jerk. His army wasnt even fully WSYWIG.."

To me, it isnt worth making a fuss over as long as the opponent is clear about their models and their lack of modeling options doesnt cost you a game..

(i.e. you are playing orks and move near a squad modeled with bolters and it turns out they are a Heavy Weapons team with maxed out heavy flamers without him reminding you first.)

[Retracted]

The TO should be almost Draconian in enforcing the WYSIWYG rule.

Three years ago my friends and I decide we are going to try Ard Boys. We scrape, scrounge, and work almost to the last minute making sure our armies were WYSIWYG.

We started playing and the TO wasn't enforcing WYSIWYG. Caused a lot of confusion on the play tables, and honestly pissed us off for working so hard to follow the rules that the TO didn't even give a feth about.

i played a guy that had every special weapon/stormbolter/temi and pintle mounted bolter as meltas. waas not impressed with that

It is one of the only true rules for your army. The TO should enforce WYSIWYG and potentially boot folks for not being WYSIWYG or remove those models from their army.

This is especially true at Semis. I can understand folks not being all-together at prelims, but come on...

I only played against one non-WYSIWYG player who said he left a dreadnought arm at home. I wasn't happy about it, but let it slide. I don't think I will be so forgiving at Semis.

beardy wrote:How hard of a stickler should the TO be (and the other players I suppose as well) about really one of the only rules for the Ard Boyz tourney?

As an example: Is a squadron of tanks without sponsons (modeled) permissible if the points were paid for the sponsons? (yes they all have heavy bolters, except that one which has flamers, etc)

Not to be anal, but really isn't that the only rule, WYSIWYG? (besides not being a total sod of course)


Just wondering, as I ran into some of that during the Prelims, wondering how others would handle it/expect during the SemiFinals.

Last year when I went, there was people with invalid lists (strange hybrids between 3.5 CSM and 4th CSM, nurgle bikers and whatnot), people with their Ultramarine tac squads counting as Blud Angle Assault squads, complete with 'flamers count as inferno pistols' and 'plasma guns count as meltas'.

It was..interesting, to say the least. While the first one was a major problem, my tabling of that opponent removed much concern over the legitimacy of his list. I can't say that I was happy about the second, but it didn't completely screw the game.

WYSIWYG should be enforced as what it is described as in the rulebook. Nothing more, nothing less. If I can GS a melta bomb onto 3 out of my 4 sergeants to show which one DOESN'T have it. You can at least make sure you have meltas on melta guys and sponsons on the tanks that have them.

Casual play is different, but this is 'ard Boyz. It's not like you need painting, it's not like you need a fluffy display board, or anything like that. You just need a legal list and the correct models. It's not rocket science.

Having played against one guy whose LRBT had dozers and EA modeled onto them but he didn't pay the points kinda bugged me, but not a whole heck of a lot. Had he tried to use the gear that was modeled and not paid for I would have been ticked but he was very straight forward about it and reminded me when I stunned it, and I thought it was shaken he reminded me that the EA did not exist. That was my only issue with non WYSIWYG so I didn't bug the TO about it. Seeing as how he took third I reminded him afterward that if he plays that list he might want to drop the non-existent gear before semis.
Now last year I guy had all his models that werea rmed with a melta that was really plasma but the TO let that slip since the TO had his plasma models and forgot to bring 'em...gotta love small town.
Personally I busted my tail finding DL for my old Ravagers and I would make everything as WYSIWYG as possible to avoid TFG, which I'm sure the semis will be full of.

WYSIWYG should be enforced 100% I think. It just makes sense. Its not too hard to do it either. If you plan on making a trip to semi's then you should be able to get your model's 100% correct.

Casual or friendly games anything goes as long as opponent agrees beforehand, but for ANY tournament, I would say be 100% WYSIWYG. I don't care about what paint scheme your army has, or if they look like wolves but are grey knights. I care about looking at a model and knowing what I am facing.

For the most part, I think WYSIWYG is a good rule, and should be enforced, but there clearly needs some leeway.

I strive for WYSIWYG as much as possible, because it helps both you and your opponent remember what each unit can do. But there are always exceptions. My sanguinary guard mix death masks and SM helmets. Is that WYSIWYG? No, not 100%, but I think it's an instance of where "these are not death masks" is acceptable.

I've seen a sergeant with a Power Fist, holding a Power Weapon. The player said "it's a power sword, not a power fist" and I was fine with that. Maybe the soldier had a glandular problem.

Lascannons being Autocannons? I'm ok with that, as long as it's consistent across your army.

"These 3 guys have meltas" when they're holding bolters is not acceptable, and shouldn't be allowed.

A big part of the game to me is the modeling/painting side, even at 'Ard Boyz. If you can clearly convey what your unit's gear is, even if it isn't the canonical norm, I'm cool with it. It just needs consistency.

kuromahou wrote:My sanguinary guard mix death masks and SM helmets. Is that WYSIWYG? No, not 100%, but I think it's an instance of where "these are not death masks" is acceptable.

Death masks are upgrades and need to be modeled. It is all or nothing +25 points for Death Masks for the squad.

I've seen a sergeant with a Power Fist, holding a Power Weapon. The player said "it's a power sword, not a power fist" and I was fine with that. Maybe the soldier had a glandular problem.

He should magnetize or put a new arm on him. Extra wargear is not okay.

Lascannons being Autocannons? I'm ok with that, as long as it's consistent across your army.

This is not okay.

"These 3 guys have meltas" when they're holding bolters is not acceptable, and shouldn't be allowed.

Agreed.

A big part of the game to me is the modeling/painting side, even at 'Ard Boyz. If you can clearly convey what your unit's gear is, even if it isn't the canonical norm, I'm cool with it. It just needs consistency.

I would agree, if it is clear that the items are not something else. If all of your lascannons are scratchbuild gattling lasgun things, then that makes sense to me. If they are all autocannons, that does not. I look down, I see autocannons. If I look at your sargeant and can't tell which special weapon he has, that's a problem.

WYSIWYG is the only real rule for 'AB models; you need to follow it.

I'm of the opinion that armies should be played WYSIWYG when it comes to weapons loadouts and the like.

I don't mind the Crimson Fists counts as Blood Angels as long as all the models in the armies are equipped as the Blood Angels would be equipped...

but your Grenade Launcher is not a Melta IG Fan Boy!

WYSIWYG is something I feel needs to be fully enforced in the tournament. I spent a great deal of time before prelims even making sure I had the right number of the right type of weapons for my bike loadouts, and modeling and making sure everything was kosher...I thankfully didn't have anyone go "oh well this melta gun is a counts as lascannon" or some feth like that. It's even in the rules packet for the tournament series that the models must be WYSIWYG...not kinda WYSIWYG...if I were a tournament org from even a prelims I wouldn't have been very forgiving...

ToI wrote: I spent a great deal of time before prelims even making sure I had the right number of the right type of weapons for my bike loadouts, and modeling and making sure everything was kosher

THIS!

It is demoralizing to see how much work I put in before a tourney to make sure things are good to go and then see someone go 'This lascannon is a melta'. Seriously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beardy wrote:As an example: Is a squadron of tanks without sponsons (modeled) permissible if the points were paid for the sponsons? (yes they all have heavy bolters, except that one which has flamers, etc)

I don't think anyone answered the OP.

No, that is not acceptable. You need to model the sponsons.

If the event has a rule, the TO should enforce the rule and everyone should be expected to follow the rule. If you do not want to follow the rule, don't participate in the tourney.

People who show up to tourneys with the expectation of not following specific rules of the event because 'they don't like that rule' are selfish and rude. I don't care if you think it is not a big deal... show up and strive to follow all the rules or stay home.

pretre wrote:

beardy wrote:As an example: Is a squadron of tanks without sponsons (modeled) permissible if the points were paid for the sponsons? (yes they all have heavy bolters, except that one which has flamers, etc)

I don't think anyone answered the OP.

No, that is not acceptable. You need to model the sponsons.

Well we didn't directly answer it like you did, but the implications of "WYSIWYG should be followed" are pretty clear...model the sponsons or hope you don't play me with those tanks cause I'll call you on it and you more than likely wont be able to shoot with those sponsons...

As a TO I don't care much for strict WYSIWYG because it limits competitiveness from my perspective. However, I do expect weapon options to be MODELED correctly even if you prefer to use different weapons to model them.. same with unit options

Basically, as long as options are modeled and they are distinguishable *And* they aren't modeled purely for some kind of advantage then they're fine in my book. I got much more important things to worry about than Jimmy using a lascannon as a missile launcher

Im a firm believer in "counts as" within reasonable expectations. As long as all your lascannons count as missile launchers and it doesnt cause confusion, and your opponent knows about it then go for it

Strict WYSIWYG is one of GW's greatest marketing ploys imo

beardy wrote:How hard of a stickler should the TO be (and the other players I suppose as well) about really one of the only rules for the Ard Boyz tourney?

As an example: Is a squadron of tanks without sponsons (modeled) permissible if the points were paid for the sponsons? (yes they all have heavy bolters, except that one which has flamers, etc)

Not to be anal, but really isn't that the only rule, WYSIWYG? (besides not being a total sod of course)


Just wondering, as I ran into some of that during the Prelims, wondering how others would handle it/expect during the SemiFinals.

Paying the points doesn't put sponsons on the model. If it was at my store, his tanks just didn't have sponsons, don't care if he paid points for them, and no, he wouldn't get to adjust his list on the fly. It's just wasted points.

You're correct that WYWIWYG is the important rule people should abide by, but some people don't seem to understand that. I run Regionals and the East Coast Finals, and I'm amazed at times by what the TO's lower down let slide by. I try to warn everyone that calls to register that WYSIWYG will be enforced, reguardless of whether their local store let them slide.

pretre wrote:WYSIWYG is the only real rule for 'AB models; you need to follow it.

Agreed.

Kirasu wrote:As a TO I don't care much for strict WYSIWYG because it limits competitiveness from my perspective. However, I do expect weapon options to be MODELED correctly even if you prefer to use different weapons to model them.. same with unit options

Basically, as long as options are modeled and they are distinguishable *And* they aren't modeled purely for some kind of advantage then they're fine in my book. I got much more important things to worry about than Jimmy using a lascannon as a missile launcher

Im a firm believer in "counts as" within reasonable expectations. As long as all your lascannons count as missile launchers and it doesnt cause confusion, and your opponent knows about it then go for it

Strict WYSIWYG is one of GW's greatest marketing ploys imo

Then don't advertise your events as WYSIWYG and make if very clear you are allowing proxies so people can avoid it. It does always 100% cause confusion in an event that says WYSIWYG. Informing your opponent is not fair in a competition as your opponent now is burdened with another thing to mentally juggle while making decisions against proxies. This is not friendly play.

Your definition of 'counts as' is not GW's tourney definition and when events allow 'counts as' in a WYSIWYG it is not what they usually are allowing. Your event allows proxies if you let Jimmy use a lascannon as a missile launcher. 'ard boyz that would have been illegal and the same for every other event.

You have total latitude to not enorce WYSIWYG in your events, but you should then clearly give people an option to proxy. It is unfair to say 'WYSIWYG', people show up expecting it and limiting themselves to use it and then Jimmy with flagrant disregard for opponents and the rules shows up not WYSIWYG and 'you let it slide'. That is a poorly run event IMHO and you make a poor TO. I would respect you more if you disclosed to everyone beforehand to allow proxies.

That is a poorly run event IMHO and you make a poor TO. I would respect you more if you disclosed to everyone beforehand to allow proxies.

That hurts my feelings :( Your respect is extremely important to me.

I see no functional difference between Ork players custom building stuff cause its "orky" and allowing within reason players to use different weapons if all of their different weapons are the same.

nkelsch wrote:

Kirasu wrote:As a TO I don't care much for strict WYSIWYG because it limits competitiveness from my perspective. However, I do expect weapon options to be MODELED correctly even if you prefer to use different weapons to model them.. same with unit options

Basically, as long as options are modeled and they are distinguishable *And* they aren't modeled purely for some kind of advantage then they're fine in my book. I got much more important things to worry about than Jimmy using a lascannon as a missile launcher

Im a firm believer in "counts as" within reasonable expectations. As long as all your lascannons count as missile launchers and it doesnt cause confusion, and your opponent knows about it then go for it

Strict WYSIWYG is one of GW's greatest marketing ploys imo

Then don't advertise your events as WYSIWYG and make if very clear you are allowing proxies so people can avoid it. It does always 100% cause confusion in an event that says WYSIWYG. Informing your opponent is not fair in a competition as your opponent now is burdened with another thing to mentally juggle while making decisions against proxies. This is not friendly play.

Your definition of 'counts as' is not GW's tourney definition and when events allow 'counts as' in a WYSIWYG it is not what they usually are allowing. Your event allows proxies if you let Jimmy use a lascannon as a missile launcher. 'ard boyz that would have been illegal and the same for every other event.

You have total latitude to not enorce WYSIWYG in your events, but you should then clearly give people an option to proxy. It is unfair to say 'WYSIWYG', people show up expecting it and limiting themselves to use it and then Jimmy with flagrant disregard for opponents and the rules shows up not WYSIWYG and 'you let it slide'. That is a poorly run event IMHO and you make a poor TO. I would respect you more if you disclosed to everyone beforehand to allow proxies.

QFT, if a tournament is advertised as WYSIWYG then all participants should be held to WYSIWYG...no exceptions.

Kirasu wrote:
Strict WYSIWYG is one of GW's greatest marketing ploys imo

This is just silly. Most of my meltas/combi-meltas, etc are kitbashed from sprue bitz on bolters. They are clear what they are but I didn't have to pay extra for them.
Strict WYSIWYG is a courtesy to your opponent.

Kirasu wrote:I see no functional difference between Ork players custom building stuff cause its "orky" and allowing within reason players to use different weapons if all of their different weapons are the same.

If the ork player custom builds something that looks exactly like another item in the game, that is a problem. If they build something new, that's cool.

If a SM player custom builds gatling lasguns and calls them heavy bolters, that's cool because there will be no confusion with existing wargear. That is counts-as. Just calling all your lascannons missile-launchers? That's proxy. Lascannons have an existing visual profile and ruleset.

Kirasu wrote:

That is a poorly run event IMHO and you make a poor TO. I would respect you more if you disclosed to everyone beforehand to allow proxies.

That hurts my feelings :( Your respect is extremely important to me.

I see no functional difference between Ork players custom building stuff cause its "orky" and allowing within reason players to use different weapons if all of their different weapons are the same.

And prepare to confuse and disappoint tourney participants by claiming you enforce WYSIWYG and then allowing proxies. There is a clear distinction between counts as and a proxy.

The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army chooses within our rulebooks; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

Orks using cyboars as bikers is a valid counts as. The boars don't have a valid option anymore, can't be confused anything else and most closely fits the rules for bikes.

Orks using Big Shootas as Rokkit Launchers because someone didn't wan to model the heavy weapon options is a proxy. Big shootas have rules and should be used as Big Shootas.

Proxies are proxies. If your event allows them, that's cool. Just disclose it. Don't tell people you are enforcing WYSIWYG and then let proxies in by a diluted view of counts as which basically nullifies all WYSIWYG and confuses people expecting it. Saying you enforce rules then don't enforce rules shows a lack of integrity... it also leaves the door open for people to simply not respect rules they don't like because there is no consistency from the TO that rules for his event are expected to be followed by everyone.

Sucks for all the Nids.. no Tervigons, Warrior Primes, Tyrannofex's...

Sure you can convert/scratch build them, but if the argument is "I need to be able to look at a model and tell what I'm facing" and, since those models don't exist, no one knows what a given model looks like.

Unless I'm missing some guidelines about how to build them, that is. I'm sure other codex's have units that models don't exist for, which means they'd be disallowed too... can't have a Warrior Prime being confused with a Warrior, Tervigon being confused with a Carnifex or Tyrannofex...

WYSIWYG is a great ideal, and if you can get there - awesome! I'm more willing to have a good time than to care about 100% WYSIWYG - If that unit is supposed to have grenades but they aren't modeled, I'm not going to cry. That Marine standing there proxying for an Ork I'll be annoyed at.

Just MHO from a new player.

There's a huge difference between 'I'm using a reasonable stand-in model for this thing that doesn't exist, or a counts-as which is logical and distinctive' and 'my meltaguns are plasmas and my plasmas are flamers and my lascannons are autocannons.'

Proxies are proxies. If your event allows them, that's cool. Just disclose it. Don't tell people you are enforcing WYSIWYG and then let proxies in by a diluted view of counts as which basically nullifies all WYSIWYG and confuses people expecting it. Saying you enforce rules then don't enforce rules shows a lack of integrity... it also leaves the door open for people to simply not respect rules they don't like because there is no consistency from the TO that rules for his event are expected to be followed by everyone.

I forgot the world was black and white instead of all shades of grey. Thanks for clearing that up for me. My rules are expected to be followed, and they are enforced. I just have different rules

Doesn't bother me at all. Events have been running smooth for years with people enjoying themselves. Don't worry so much about others events, it's all good!

There's a huge difference between 'I'm using a reasonable stand-in model for this thing that doesn't exist, or a counts-as which is logical and distinctive' and 'my meltaguns are plasmas and my plasmas are flamers and my lascannons are autocannons.'

I agree, everything is within reason if someone shows up with 1 missile launcher cause he doesnt have 1 extra lascannon then I seriously don't care and if an opponent flips out then they need to relax.. Remember, it's all about degree of WYSIWYG not simply an absolute rule imo. I'm not talking about bringing an entire proxy army. If in doubt of what "reasonable" means then just ask, its pretty simple.

rigeld2 wrote:Sucks for all the Nids.. no Tervigons, Warrior Primes, Tyrannofex's...

Tervigons and Tyrannofex = Carnifex kit with added bitz from different kits. Not terribly hard.
Warrior Primes = Warrior kit

You forgot to say that it sucks that there is no Trygon Prime kit.

You are talking about a completely different issue. Those models have images in their codex that you can emulate with existing models. If someone plops a coke can, a predator or a warrior model on the table and tries to call it a Tervigon though, it's not going to fly because it is a Proxy. If someone puts a carnifex with two guns on it down and says 'It just has Scything Talons', that's not WYSIWYG

Sure you can convert/scratch build them, but if the argument is "I need to be able to look at a model and tell what I'm facing" and, since those models don't exist, no one knows what a given model looks like.

Go take a look at the codex. You tell me. There are pictures of Tervigons and Tyrannofexes that plenty of Nid players have used to make their own out of GW parts and that when put on the table are clear what they are.

WYSIWYG is a great ideal, and if you can get there - awesome! I'm more willing to have a good time than to care about 100% WYSIWYG - If that unit is supposed to have grenades but they aren't modeled, I'm not going to cry. That Marine standing there proxying for an Ork I'll be annoyed at.

You can play however you want. But for tournament play, it is important to be able to look at the table and understand what you are seeing.

Kirasu wrote:
I agree, everything is within reason if someone shows up with 1 missile launcher cause he doesnt have 1 extra lascannon then I seriously don't care and if an opponent flips out then they need to relax.. Remember, it's all about degree of WYSIWYG not simply an absolute rule imo. I'm not talking about bringing an entire proxy army. If in doubt of what "reasonable" means then just ask, its pretty simple.

It is a burden on a player in what is supposed to be a fair competative event. If he has to juggle decisions and constantly remind himself those lascannons are really missile launchers over and over and over, that is unfair to be forced upon a player in a tourney. With time and stress and distractions, players don't need keeping track of proxies to be added to that. In a competative event it ruins the integrity to allow players to disregard rules and burden opponents with unfair advantages.

Now a player may choose to accept that burden in friendly play... in a tourney he has no such choice which makes it unfair.

Please define how many proxies are allowed in your events before it reaches the degree where it has broken WYSIWYG? Can I say two lascannons are missile launchers? Four? Maybe a percentage? What if the person who is not following WYSIWYG makes it to the top table because of mistakes made by opponent in not being clear with his proxies? The 'correct' response if someone is trying to proxy a single lascannon as a single missile launcher is "oh, that model isn't trained on how to use a lascannon and ended up blowing himself up." and remove the offending model from the game. If the player didn't want to play a few points down, then he should have followed the rules. The person breaking the rule should be the one being punished, not the opponent who now has to accept the proxies.

If one player who shows up with the intent to break the rules is allowed to, then all players should have the option to show up and disregard the rule... which is disclosing you are not enforcing WYSIWYG or are allowing a small number of proxies.

Kirasu wrote:I agree, everything is within reason if someone shows up with 1 missile launcher cause he doesnt have 1 extra lascannon then I seriously don't care and if an opponent flips out then they need to relax.. Remember, it's all about degree of WYSIWYG not simply an absolute rule imo. I'm not talking about bringing an entire proxy army. If in doubt of what "reasonable" means then just ask, its pretty simple.

I completely buy that a TO has to be able to make a judgement. We're just contending that saying that proxy is acceptable is not the best way to go about it. It is better to say 'Proxies not allowed. WYSIWYG is required. Failure to comply will be dealt with based on the severity of the infraction by the TO.' That leaves you complete leeway to do what you need to do or not do.