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Maybe a percentage?

at least 89.31% measured by model weight in grams (Nickels on bases not allowed)

To be honest Ive never even had WYSIWYG be a big concern in games.. I just prefer to be flexible rather than dogmatic because stuff happens. Just how it is!

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Sucks for all the Nids.. no Tervigons, Warrior Primes, Tyrannofex's...

Tervigons and Tyrannofex = Carnifex kit with added bitz from different kits. Not terribly hard.
Warrior Primes = Warrior kit

What added bits? Can you point out the bits in a Carnifex kit that make a Rupture cannon? What you call a Tervigon or Tyrannofex I might call a Carnifex. So when you put it on the field against me, it's a Carnifex. We're playing WYSIWYG. Bye bye Tervifex.

pretre wrote:You forgot to say that it sucks that there is no Trygon Prime kit.

You're right - I did forget that. Partially because I don't personally like the unit (not for any rules or tactical reason - I just don't like the way Trygons are modeled). I also forgot Harpies, but that's just because I'm dumb.

pretre wrote:You are talking about a completely different issue. Those models have images in their codex that you can emulate with existing models.

Can you tell me the page number with the Warrior Prime or Trygon Prime picture?

pretre wrote:If someone plops a coke can, a predator or a warrior model on the table and tries to call it a Tervigon though, it's not going to fly because it is a Proxy.

Correct. And in 100% WYSIWYG you are not allowed to *proxy* a lascannon with a missle launcher.

pretre wrote:If someone puts a carnifex with two guns on it down and says 'It just has Scything Talons', that's not WYSIWYG

WYSIWYG is an extension of no proxies.

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Sure you can convert/scratch build them, but if the argument is "I need to be able to look at a model and tell what I'm facing" and, since those models don't exist, no one knows what a given model looks like.

Go take a look at the codex. You tell me. There are pictures of Tervigons and Tyrannofexes that plenty of Nid players have used to make their own out of GW parts and that when put on the table are clear what they are.

And some of them look like Tervigons, some of them I have absolutely no idea what they are by looking.

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:WYSIWYG is a great ideal, and if you can get there - awesome! I'm more willing to have a good time than to care about 100% WYSIWYG - If that unit is supposed to have grenades but they aren't modeled, I'm not going to cry. That Marine standing there proxying for an Ork I'll be annoyed at.

You can play however you want. But for tournament play, it is important to be able to look at the table and understand what you are seeing.

I agree 100%. I, however, am not confused when my opponent says "I don't have any missile launchers, if you see one it's a melta."

Ya know, I'll even give you that proxying a long range Heavy weapon for a short range Assault (that's what it is, right?) would be confusing (even if he doesn't actually have any of the former in use in the rest of the army). You do realize you can talk to the other player, right? "Hey - is that the melta you're proxying or is it really a missile launcher? I just want to make sure before I move my Land Raider to tank shock him." Look - clarification with very little (like... seconds) of gameplay delay! That's unpossible!

It really boils down to - even in a tournament, it's a game. Play to enjoy it. Be sportsmanlike. Does it make you happy when someone's favorite unit can't be used because he paid the points for a plasma pistol when it's armed with a bolt pistol?

There was I guy I saw at our location using a Crimson Fists army as a GK army. Sorry..guys with bolters shouldn't be guys with stormbolters and halberds...

The TO let it slide. It's a good thing I decided not to play, because if I was his opponent...I would have had a massive problem with that. If I was the TO it would not have been tolerated.

personally,if I play some one using proxy's, as long as I know and it's not like,a space marine for a wood elf, I am okay with it. I played this person that used 8 high elf archers to represent 8 sea guard, I don't make a fuss, I just target that unit first


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As long as it is reasonable I am okay with it, or a small bunch of the wrong unit 'count as' more models for one unit, okay thank you for telling me, let me kill them know, mwahahaha

I've been to an event that Kirasu runs, and they're smooth and well run. It's a pretty relaxed atmosphere.

That said, relying on "Reasonableness" and "everybody gets along" can create a bit of a home field advantage for the locals that know that "real" rules. I'm not saying it does, but it can.

Extending that, I would say that if you're going to bend on WYSIWYG, than you need to ask this question: "is this likely to cause a problem for opponents." So far, the standard has been "could this possibly cause a problem for opponents." I like the latter standard, but for minor deviations (the only plasma cannon in the army is actually a lascannon), it's probably not a big deal.

My take on WYSIWYG is pretty simple: nothing looks more like something else than what it's supposed to be, and stuff should try to look like it's supposed to. If you glue a tau fusion gun on a pintle, that doesn't look like a storm bolter.

I think every tournament should be wysiwyg. I know some people don't have the funds but if I spent money to get models that look half way like it then fie but I don't want to go against an ork army where he had 3 warbosses as meganobs or the armless nid army.

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:You forgot to say that it sucks that there is no Trygon Prime kit.

You're right - I did forget that. Partially because I don't personally like the unit (not for any rules or tactical reason - I just don't like the way Trygons are modeled). I also forgot Harpies, but that's just because I'm dumb.

Actually there is a trygon prime kit, it comes in the trygon box, actually you get a trygon a trygon prime and a mawloc all in the same box!

rigeld2 wrote:What added bits? Can you point out the bits in a Carnifex kit that make a Rupture cannon? What you call a Tervigon or Tyrannofex I might call a Carnifex. So when you put it on the field against me, it's a Carnifex. We're playing WYSIWYG. Bye bye Tervifex.

Go take a look in the dakka gallery. Do a search for 'Tyrannofex'. Most of them are pretty distinct.

Can you tell me the page number with the Warrior Prime or Trygon Prime picture?

Trygon Prime is on P80. Not sure if there is a WP pic anywhere.

Correct. And in 100% WYSIWYG you are not allowed to *proxy* a lascannon with a missle launcher.

Absolutely. Not going to argue that.

WYSIWYG is an extension of no proxies.

Kind of. WYSIWYG is the death of proxies.

And some of them look like Tervigons, some of them I have absolutely no idea what they are by looking.

To be fair, sometimes I think that about some player's marines. lol

It really boils down to - even in a tournament, it's a game. Play to enjoy it. Be sportsmanlike. Does it make you happy when someone's favorite unit can't be used because he paid the points for a plasma pistol when it's armed with a bolt pistol?

I don't drink the tears of my opponents, but tournaments are tournaments. You have limited time to complete a game. How much time do you want to waste confirming and reconfirming? What happens if you make a mistake because you forgot one of the 10 things your opponent rattled off as non-WYSIWYG at the start of the game? It is just easier to be WYSIWYG.

Here's a nitpicky question: if someone plays a Dreadnought with a Death Company Paint Scheme, and Blood Talons, but says it's a Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons, is that WYSIWYG?

Polonius wrote:I've been to an event that Kirasu runs, and they're smooth and well run. It's a pretty relaxed atmosphere.

That said, relying on "Reasonableness" and "everybody gets along" can create a bit of a home field advantage for the locals that know that "real" rules. I'm not saying it does, but it can.

Extending that, I would say that if you're going to bend on WYSIWYG, than you need to ask this question: "is this likely to cause a problem for opponents." So far, the standard has been "could this possibly cause a problem for opponents." I like the latter standard, but for minor deviations (the only plasma cannon in the army is actually a lascannon), it's probably not a big deal.

My take on WYSIWYG is pretty simple: nothing looks more like something else than what it's supposed to be, and stuff should try to look like it's supposed to. If you glue a tau fusion gun on a pintle, that doesn't look like a storm bolter.

The issue is if it isn't a big deal, then why can't the big deal be that the player needs to take a lascannon as a lascannon and pay the points? or just remove the model? Just because it isn't meta-optimal, if he doesn't have the models, he can play with what he has. If it is one or two models, having a lascannon not a missile launcher won't make or break games, and if it does, then the disadvantage should be against the person who didn't bring the right models.

If It is a big deal, like 28 lascannons/meltas being told into 'all my heavy weapons are missiles because I am longfang spamming' and the list won't work without the proxies, then yes... it has gone past WYSIWYG and broken the event.

In both situations the reasonable action is not to let it slide. If it is no big deal, then playing it as what it is should be fine. If it is a big deal, it shouldn't be allowed because it is unfair and the event claims to require WYSIWYG. If you don't like WYSIWYG or don't want it, then give everyone an equal chance to take advantage of the relaxed rule. Maybe someone has a sub-optimal list because he took a lascannon as a lascannon expecting WYSIWYG, maybe he would have done better with missile launchers but didn't know he could simply break the rules and gain an advantage? If he knew he had the option, maybe he would have proxied them as missiles and won the event?

I am not saying proxies have no place in gaming or even in tourneys... but you should disclose it if you have no intention in enforcing WYSIWYG. 'ard boyz had WYSIWYG as a rule and players had the right to expect it would be enforced fairly and equally across all players.

While I agree on the main point that having "house rules" always favors those that play in the house, I think you missed a nuance in my post.

For most players, it's not a big deal to remember (or not care) that a single heavy weapon is something else. "oh, all five long fangs have missle launchers, even the plasma cannon." The benefit derived by the opponent (being able to play the list he wants/copied off hte internet) is greater than your cost (remember that missile spam wolves, in fact, are spamming missiles).

One of the biggest differences between local store tournaments and major RTTs and GTs isn't just size, it's also the extent to which visitors are expected, and the extent to which it's basically by locals for locals. At the end of the day, most TOs are interested in making sure the most people have the most fun, not that every single rule is followed.

Now, if you think you've stumbled over the grand truth that local players have the advantage at Hard Boys... well, I'm glad you've made it to the party before the keg is kicked.

nkelsch wrote:

Polonius wrote:I've been to an event that Kirasu runs, and they're smooth and well run. It's a pretty relaxed atmosphere.

That said, relying on "Reasonableness" and "everybody gets along" can create a bit of a home field advantage for the locals that know that "real" rules. I'm not saying it does, but it can.

Extending that, I would say that if you're going to bend on WYSIWYG, than you need to ask this question: "is this likely to cause a problem for opponents." So far, the standard has been "could this possibly cause a problem for opponents." I like the latter standard, but for minor deviations (the only plasma cannon in the army is actually a lascannon), it's probably not a big deal.

My take on WYSIWYG is pretty simple: nothing looks more like something else than what it's supposed to be, and stuff should try to look like it's supposed to. If you glue a tau fusion gun on a pintle, that doesn't look like a storm bolter.

The issue is if it isn't a big deal, then why can't the big deal be that the player needs to take a lascannon as a lascannon and pay the points? or just remove the model? Just because it isn't meta-optimal, if he doesn't have the models, he can play with what he has. If it is one or two models, having a lascannon not a missile launcher won't make or break games, and if it does, then the disadvantage should be against the person who didn't bring the right models.

If It is a big deal, like 28 lascannons/meltas being told into 'all my heavy weapons are missiles because I am longfang spamming' and the list won't work without the proxies, then yes... it has gone past WYSIWYG and broken the event.

In both situations the reasonable action is not to let it slide. If it is no big deal, then playing it as what it is should be fine. If it is a big deal, it shouldn't be allowed because it is unfair and the event claims to require WYSIWYG. If you don't like WYSIWYG or don't want it, then give everyone an equal chance to take advantage of the relaxed rule. Maybe someone has a sub-optimal list because he took a lascannon as a lascannon expecting WYSIWYG, maybe he would have done better with missile launchers but didn't know he could simply break the rules and gain an advantage? If he knew he had the option, maybe he would have proxied them as missiles and won the event?

I am not saying proxies have no place in gaming or even in tourneys... but you should disclose it if you have no intention in enforcing WYSIWYG. 'ard boyz had WYSIWYG as a rule and players had the right to expect it would be enforced fairly and equally across all players.

Just like Kirasu said, you're being dogmatic. I've been to multiple events run by Kirasu and have had no complaints at all. It all comes down to if the "rule break" is reasonable. Yes, reasonable is a loose word, but that is entirely the point. If someone came with an armymen IG army, he would kick him out. But, for example, if you didn't have the meltas to build combi-meltas on your rhinos, that is entirely reasonable.

Plus, your argument that not enforcing WYSIWYG could tamper with results is bull . Any player standing a chance to place will know the list and loadout of his opponent. If he payed the points for it, a flamer can be a melta gun imho. If this isn't an example of hyperbole i don't know what is....

Night's Blood wrote:
Plus, your argument that not enforcing WYSIWYG could tamper with results is bull . Any player standing a chance to place will know the list and loadout of his opponent. If he payed the points for it, a flamer can be a melta gun imho. If this isn't an example of hyperbole i don't know what is....

Except in a game where people have been playing for long hours with tight time limits and hundreds of distractions, we rely on impulse and intuition from visual cues to help us make decisions and play. While it isn't drastic, saying it never has any impact is also hyperbole... The issue is it isn't for the TO or the to decide what is a reasonable burden. *ANY TIME* there is a burden it should be on the person not following the rules... which means not allowing the proxy. If it is not a big deal for one model to be proxied, then why can't he simply accept the slight disadvantage of not having that weapon? And this idea that anything that won't impact an experienced gamer being the standard is unreasonable... So now I should explicitly try to force a few proxies in to confuse and burden less experienced gamers as a tactic right? I mean if they are experienced, they should have no trouble juggling a few more proxies in a competitive game... and if they can't they weren't gonna win anyways right? I don't like anything that approaches that attitude which is why enforcing the rules is the only fair solution for all involved.

All you have to do is say your event is "WYSIWYG preferred, proxies allowed at TO Discretion." At least people entering know what they can get away with and expect others to burden them with. I think an overwhelming number of people who entered an event and possibly changed their list because they were expecting a 100% WYSIWYG standard would be upset to play someone who blatantly flaunted the rules with no penalty.

@Kirasu and his buddies...

Tournaments running smoothly isn't necessarily an indicator that everyone is fine with it. I'm betting no one wants to be the "douche" that speaks up. That's the message you're sending, that anyone waac enough to expect their opponent to use the right models is being ridiculous. Its rather convenient that anyone speaking up becomes (by default) the individual causing the event to not run smoothly.

Here is your first official complaint.

Ahem.

Dear Kirasu,

I've heard you allow players to abuse/break the wysisyg rules in tournaments where they should be upheld (specifically ard boyz). Due to this, I choose never to participate in a tournament where you are TO.

Sincerely,
Todd

There, now you have your complaint. Will you change your stance and start enforcing it? Probably not. You seem to have a strong opinion on the subject (wysiwyg as marketing gimmick, wtf?), and aren't likely to stop letting it influence how you run events.

"Reasonable" rule break? It is never reasonable for someone to pretend his toy army man has a different make believe weapon than his toy army man actually has, when playing in a competitive toy army man event. Never. You're playing with toy army men. Either you have the right ones or you don't play. Either you play by the toy army man rules that everyone's agreed on, or you don't play. These are "reasonable" expectations.

No one proxies for fun in a tournament. If someone thinks grenade launchers look cool, but chooses to count them as meltaguns, they are the ones being unreasonable. They're not doing it for fun, they're doing it to win. If someone meant to have 15 missile launchers, but only has 14 missile launchers and 1 heavy bolter, it is not reasonable for them to count it as a missile launcher when they could simply leave it out of their list or take it as it is. Again, they're not doing it for fun, they're doing it to win.

On a lamer note:
The TO at the ard boyz I attended allowed an individual to use an absurd amount of unfinished models (bloodcrushers with no riders, plus others I don't recall). Now, I mean the TO no ill will. He did a great job, and was a super nice guy (probably why he couldn't make the hard call and tell the kid he couldn't play). Somehow (lots of rubber rulering from what little I was witness to) this kid ended up on table 1 in round 3. Fortunately, between my opponent on table 2 kicking my ass so bad, and his opponent putting up a good fight, the Daemon kid was knocked down to third (which still sucks if he was in fact cheating). Hopefully he will get his stuff together and glue some riders on those bloodcrushers before semis. I'm just a tad bit embaressed when I think of him placing at our location and possibly going on to pull that crap somewhere else.

I saw and faced a small amount of non-WYSIWYG at the Prelim round. It was a very small amount and caused me no confusion. If it had been a greater amount, I would have appealed for the models to be removed. At Semis, I would ask for the models to be removed.

I'm 100% with Pretre on this, and thus a bit closer to nkelsch than to Kirasu, though I think they both are a bit right and a bit wrong.

i think WYSIWYG should be enforced to a point, 2 scenerios

1. A Guy grabbed the wrong box when comming so had everything he needed except his troops instead of his PA marines he had his gray knights everyone knew he had the models at home(an hour away) so he just usd halberds a CC weps and Swords as power weapons it worked out fine and no on here had a problem with it.

2. Another fellow was playing daemons and in every squad he had about 50% GW models the other half was plastered and looked nothing like what they were but because they were in the squad and painted the same, we let him play through the tourney, then he got 4th and since the guy who took second couldint go then the TO gave him a spot, afterwords finding out he was braggin about making it to semi's with an army tht was plastered, since that insident i think the TO had his spot removed and given to the 5th place guy.

mikhaila wrote:
You're correct that WYWIWYG is the important rule people should abide by, but some people don't seem to understand that. I run Regionals and the East Coast Finals, and I'm amazed at times by what the TO's lower down let slide by. I try to warn everyone that calls to register that WYSIWYG will be enforced, reguardless of whether their local store let them slide.

Bravo! Friendly games? Don't care as long as the opponent (usually a friend or aquaintance which garners them a bit more trust) tells me ahead of time when stuff isn't WYSIWIG. Random stranger at a tourney where money and/or prizes are at stake? WYSIWIG. I've had too many instances of strangers in all types of games try to pull some very convientent switcheroos (no, the OTHER guy with a bolter is the missle launcher now that the one I clearly pointed to earlier is dead!) when it benefited them.

As with the OP, my brother and I have several new leman russ kits built. As they are, yes the sponsons do add more to the frame, but all of the new sponson weapons fit snug inside the kit without having to glue them on. When we play without sponsons we just dont place anything in them. It is a minor disadvantage, but as my brother is in college with little money, its something he has accepted as to not having to buy another 5-6 kits for the builds that he likes to use.

I don't get why this is even going in for a discussion. We aren't talking about friendly pick-up games, we're talking about a sanctioned tournament where the only rules for your army are:

1) Must be up to 2500 points
2) Must follow the FOC
3) Must be WYSIWYG

If someone reads the packet and still tries to enter things that are not WYSIWYG, to me, that's the same as submitting an illegal list, or trying to run 2600 points.

Yeah....Gotta agree with the WYSIWYG hardliners here, up to a point. I don't need to see grenades or holy icons or books, but if it aint a missile launcher, it aint a missile launcher. No sponsons? The offending player can now place his tanks closer together, fudge firing angles and ranges, claim that THIS tank has the plasma sponsons instead of THAT tank. This is less fair to the non-veteran gamer, who might be struggling just to keep up with 5000 points on the table, crazy missions with multiple win conditions and bonus points, and the still restrictive 2.5 hours for set up and game.

Regardless of veteran player status, the tournament rules are clear, and should be followed. Laziness and permissive attitudes on the part of TOs allow some things that should not be allowed. If the event starts at XX:XX am, anyone not present on time shouldn't be allowed to play. If a player doesn't have a finished legible army list for the judge and each opponent, no play. If the appropriate available models are not armed correctly, yank the models (at the least).

One of the problems nowadays is that very few people want to be the Hardass. Fences make good neighbors. If the rules (fences) are clearly delineated, there can be little or no argument over who the player (neighbor) in the wrong is. This game is currently dominated by players who study the rules obsessively, prepare for anything, and is able to dominate and verbally beat down his opponent. I have no problem with the first two. It's the dominance thing that gets my goat. GW is mostly to blame, followed closely by the community itself. Ah well, try to shrug it off and have fun...

Todd wrote:@Kirasu and his buddies...

Tournaments running smoothly isn't necessarily an indicator that everyone is fine with it. I'm betting no one wants to be the "douche" that speaks up. That's the message you're sending, that anyone waac enough to expect their opponent to use the right models is being ridiculous. Its rather convenient that anyone speaking up becomes (by default) the individual causing the event to not run smoothly.

Here is your first official complaint.

Ahem.

Dear Kirasu,

I've heard you allow players to abuse/break the wysisyg rules in tournaments where they should be upheld (specifically ard boyz). Due to this, I choose never to participate in a tournament where you are TO.

Sincerely,
Todd

There, now you have your complaint. Will you change your stance and start enforcing it? Probably not. You seem to have a strong opinion on the subject (wysiwyg as marketing gimmick, wtf?), and aren't likely to stop letting it influence how you run events.

"Reasonable" rule break? It is never reasonable for someone to pretend his toy army man has a different make believe weapon than his toy army man actually has, when playing in a competitive toy army man event. Never. You're playing with toy army men. Either you have the right ones or you don't play. Either you play by the toy army man rules that everyone's agreed on, or you don't play. These are "reasonable" expectations.

No one proxies for fun in a tournament. If someone thinks grenade launchers look cool, but chooses to count them as meltaguns, they are the ones being unreasonable. They're not doing it for fun, they're doing it to win. If someone meant to have 15 missile launchers, but only has 14 missile launchers and 1 heavy bolter, it is not reasonable for them to count it as a missile launcher when they could simply leave it out of their list or take it as it is. Again, they're not doing it for fun, they're doing it to win.

On a lamer note:
The TO at the ard boyz I attended allowed an individual to use an absurd amount of unfinished models (bloodcrushers with no riders, plus others I don't recall). Now, I mean the TO no ill will. He did a great job, and was a super nice guy (probably why he couldn't make the hard call and tell the kid he couldn't play). Somehow (lots of rubber rulering from what little I was witness to) this kid ended up on table 1 in round 3. Fortunately, between my opponent on table 2 kicking my ass so bad, and his opponent putting up a good fight, the Daemon kid was knocked down to third (which still sucks if he was in fact cheating). Hopefully he will get his stuff together and glue some riders on those bloodcrushers before semis. I'm just a tad bit embaressed when I think of him placing at our location and possibly going on to pull that crap somewhere else.

on a LoL note, I don't think I've ever seen bloodcrushers with riders other than on the box. My friend converted his into standing models using DP arms. And other people at the store think the riders look terrible so don't use them.

IMO it's like adding a Gunner to a tank hatch, ie; not something needed.
IF I'm Playing Codex SM and I dont have Grenades on my guys can I not play? It's automatically in their wargear, it's not an upgrade it's standard equipment.

Heres my thinking on WYSIWYG vs Proxies.

All my armies for all the game systems I play are WYSIWYG it annoys the hell out of me when I play folk who simply just proxy everything its confusing and ruins the look of the game.

So next time someone wants to proxy heaps of stuff when they play me I am going to use proxies myself and bring the most filthy list I can.

I was asked by my LFGS to judge ard boys.

We only had one complaint about a deffroller not being modeled. The gentlemen promptly ran to the bathroom procured a tube of cardboard and taped it to the front of his wagon.

Orky Ingenuity at its best.

dude

a) its hardbozy and wyz is in the rulebook forcrying out loud.

j_p_chess wrote:dude

a) its hardbozy and wyz is in the rulebook forcrying out loud.

It's in the rulebook for characters, not armies. While I agree that it should be enforced at 'ardboyz (it's practically the only "rule" other than buying figs and making a legal list that they have!), spouting off incorrect interpretations of the rules doesn't help the cause.

Well, the WYSIWYG rule is actually explicitly spelled out for hard boys,"Any armor, weapons and upgrades must be modeled on the miniatures (WYSIWYG)"

Of course, that's a stricter standard than is enforced anywhere. By the letter of the rule, things like melta bombs, Veteran Doctrines, etc. must all be modeled.

Which is why the first rule listed explained that TO rulings are final.

So, the technical rule is never followed, meaning there is some level of grey area, which varies from store to store.

I think most stores have a pretty solid and mostly consistent understanding of it, but it's still an unwritten rule.

I was wondering about a WYSIWYG question. Chaos Space Marines modeled bolt pistol and chainsword, but they have no bolter on the model even though its part of their wargear in their army list. If it's a uniform kit across the army, should this be a problem?

No, it's not a problem. Grey Hunters have the same issue. And regular SM for that matter, as they're supposed to have pistols in additionl to their bolters, but not everyone puts a holster on every last tac marine.

Often the best and clearest way to go with CSMs is to model the squads with a mix of bolters and bp&ccw.

Perfect example of this is how do you model a pink horror with bolt of change? or a Hearolds with different gifts?