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I have seen people saying that lysander is the beast space marine hq. Why is this? He strikes at STR 10 in combat but he has no ranged weapon, meaning that any unit he gives bolter drill to he cant do anything in. He gives the army stubbern butKantor can do that for 25 fewer points. If people could explain it would be much apritiated.

Well people say the moon is made of Cheese, however I wouldnt put money on that.

Lysander is a good/strong HQ choice for Codex:SM especially in a drop pod with a squad of sternguard.

EW,2+3++,Str10, MasterCrafted goodness. This guy's full of awesomeness at a price.

personaly i field Vulkan or Shrike

Put him with some Assault Terminators in a Landraider and watch the squad do work.

Lysander has big scary numbers and abilities that are obviously awesome, so people immediately assume he must be fantastic. They don't notice that his awesome abilities pull him in completely different directions. No matter what kind of squad he's with, you're not making full use of his abilities, for which he is fairly priced, including his unused BS5/I5. So he's always inefficient, but looks great. Combat Tactics is a consistently underrated ability, and getting Stubborn to replace it seems like a better deal than it is. Lysander is, on the surface, an awesome beatstick. It's harder to realize that that's really all he does, while costing you a subtly powerful ability.

He is very overrated. His less-than-ideal Chapter Tactics are a far cry from Vulkan's army-warping power, he's not as efficient as a generic Captain properly kitted, and he doesn't warp the gamestate the way a Librarian does. All he does is hit things with his hammer, though he does this very well.

He's a carnifex with higher strength, better saves, better weapon skill, ability to teleport, and army-wide stubborn. What's not to love about that?

Seriously, sternguard with him is fun, but he's really made for tactical terminators. Tactical terminators like bolter drill, the ability to give all the low AP shooting to Lysander, the S10 hammer against walkers and other close combat stuff, and also they kind of like Stubborn since 2+ is hard to play combat tactics games with anyway. There is no other HQ you can give to buff Tactical Terminators as much... not Vulkan or Shrike or anyone else...

Also, don't forget that Lysander can bolster a ruin, so scouts can easily get 2++ saves while other marines like devs can get 3++. Again, tactical terminators with cyclone missile launchers like 3++ against shooting.

-Myst

People think he is great because he is so easy to use. He is easily one of the most resilent characters in the game. He has an amazing save 2+,3++ and has eternal warrior. He has high WS (for a marine), and gets to strike at Str10, with a reroll. Lysander alone could probably attack any dedicated assault squad, and if he isn't killing them all, is going to take most of the unit with him.

And thats where the goodness ends. Because while he himself is awesome, he isn't a force multiplier. Force Multipliers increase your overall strength. In Layman's terms, they are more than the sum of their parts.

Take Ghazkhull Thraka. He is a force multiplier. "But he just nom-noms on stuff" you say. Thats true, however he also makes the waagh even better, a lynch pin to ork strategy. So instead of just being awesome, he makes your entire army awesome. Vulkan He'stan is the more obvious choice here, but I wanted to provide a different example.

So for 200 points, you get a single awesome thing. However for less then that, you can get Vulkan, which makes your whole army awesome, or Shrike which makes everyone around him (as well as sternguard) awesome. I would say Lysander is great as a second HQ to lead some assault termies. But I would never use him as my primary HQ choice.

Plus, like GreyHamster said, losing Combat Tactics is NOT worth Stubborn.

GreyHamster wrote:
He is very overrated. His less-than-ideal Chapter Tactics are a far cry from Vulkan's army-warping power, he's not as efficient as a generic Captain properly kitted, and he doesn't warp the gamestate the way a Librarian does.

I can more or less agree with the rest of the stuff you wrote, but I almost choked on my breakfast when I got to the bolded part. You simply cannot kit out a Captain to be a better beatstick than Lysander, as Lysander has Eternal Warrior, 4 wounds and a super-awesome Thunder Hammer. You just can't get that on a Captain.

I think the argument for the captain, if im not mistaken, is in favor of bikes with a relic blade? As in, the captain gives army warping power in the form of troop bikes?

If this is not what the author intended then I agree, generic captains are trash compared to any named char, or a libby or even a chaplain.

As for Lysander, he is not bad with tactical termies and sternguard, as they make use of bolter shots more than any other squad. 10 Sternguard in a pod with Lysander is a rock that many armies can not handle, assuming they have some support. But the larger the game you play, the worse single effect chars like lysander get and the better multi effect chars like vulkan and pedro kantor get.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:Put him with some Assault Terminators in a Landraider and watch the squad do work.

The thing is, a squad of TH/SS Terminators really don't need his help. There's nothing you're going to throw them at short of a Monolith that they wouldn't kill without Lysander.

I've been running Lysander +10 tactical Terminators with 2x cyclones in a fun list I've been running. It makes for a wicked expensive footslogging unit, but you have a walking wave of 24" of guaranteed death for infantry. Bolter drill is also really useful with a drop pod and 10 Sternguard. They're already above average in close combat compared to regular Marines, and he gives them some ridiculous punch.

Brother SRM wrote:The thing is, a squad of TH/SS Terminators really don't need his help. There's nothing you're going to throw them at short of a Monolith that they wouldn't kill without Lysander.

I've been running Lysander +10 tactical Terminators with 2x cyclones in a fun list I've been running. It makes for a wicked expensive footslogging unit, but you have a walking wave of 24" of guaranteed death for infantry. Bolter drill is also really useful with a drop pod and 10 Sternguard. They're already above average in close combat compared to regular Marines, and he gives them some ridiculous punch.

I haven't had the chance to use him with shooty units yet, but believe me, there have been times where I was glad he was in the squad with Assault Terminators.

I believe that,like Calgar,he is a noob choice.Newbies,seeing the word stubborn,look it up to find it means you ignore Ld modifiers(negatives),and think

''Great,I swap a useless rule that allows me to fail tests,for one that makes me likely(or certain in Calgar's case), to pass them.''


Now that seems great in theory.Combat Tactics seems like a rubbish rule to begin with.But imagine the marines are stuck in a fight against 30 orks.The can choose to fail the test,and escape the fight they can't win.Lysander makes them stay on.






When I said Calgar,it is for the simple reason that newbies ,especially younger gamers,will see him,think, ok, he is the Chapter Master in the best armour,he is the best.Not true.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GreyHamster wrote:
He is very overrated. His less-than-ideal Chapter Tactics are a far cry from Vulkan's army-warping power, he's not as efficient as a generic Captain properly kitted, and he doesn't warp the gamestate the way a Librarian does.

I can more or less agree with the rest of the stuff you wrote, but I almost choked on my breakfast when I got to the bolded part. You simply cannot kit out a Captain to be a better beatstick than Lysander, as Lysander has Eternal Warrior, 4 wounds and a super-awesome Thunder Hammer. You just can't get that on a Captain.

No, but a Captain can be a decent combat HQ at a much cheaper price. Whille you can't reach the same power level in a single figure, you don't need to when you can use the extra points to bring, say, more Sternguard or help squeeze in another rifleman. By efficient, I mean result per point, not total result. The basic Captain can bring you *enough* beating for so much less cost, he's still a better choice. With almost the same statline, you can give him just a relic blade and a combi-melta, and get a 140 point guy that can hide in a razorback, can shoot, can slag a tank without having to charge it, and can still do significant damage in close combat. He's never going to meatgrind like Lysander but he's more versatile and 70% the price tag. You're not buying a combat monster, you're buying a cheaper, more flexible HQ. I already conceded that it's pretty much impossible to match Lysander's facepunching, but I contend that you really don't need to.

Because he doesn't die, and he doesn't run away. He's got a 2+/3+, stubborn on LD 10, and I think I remember him being EW as well (not sure on that one).

You have to, barring horrible dice, actually kill him if you want him gone, which given his stats and equipment is no mean feat, plus, thanks to his huge killy hammer, he will be killing whatever you send after him right back, very very well.

I really got a sence of lysanders power when i got trounced in a tourni by a guy playing lysander. I was playing a big nids army. Lysander waded through a carnifex and a hive tyrant and nearly killed another hive tyrant before he finally felll.

Eternal warrior, 2+/3+ and a str 10 CCW are nothing to shrug at. He is a beast, and on top o that you get stubborn which i much prefer to combat tactics (call me weird), bolter drill, and bolster defences. he's one of the toughest beatsticks out there for the points and the rest is all gravy,

Deadshot wrote:I believe that,like Calgar,he is a noob choice.Newbies,seeing the word stubborn,look it up to find it means you ignore Ld modifiers(negatives),and think

''Great,I swap a useless rule that allows me to fail tests,for one that makes me likely(or certain in Calgar's case), to pass them.''


Now that seems great in theory.Combat Tactics seems like a rubbish rule to begin with.But imagine the marines are stuck in a fight against 30 orks.The can choose to fail the test,and escape the fight they can't win.Lysander makes them stay on.






When I said Calgar,it is for the simple reason that newbies ,especially younger gamers,will see him,think, ok, he is the Chapter Master in the best armour,he is the best.Not true.

So...Good Equipment makes him a noob choice? He's made to kill things. lots of things. That's the point.

A noob choice is a very ignorant way of putting it.

The ability to make the army stubborn, while isn't great, is certainly not a death blow.

The problem with stubborn is that it's not optional. I'd be delighted to take Lysander if I could keep combat tactics. But losing the ability to break tacticals out of a combat or fall back to shooting rather than get charged is enough of a downside that it makes Lysander a potential liability. Compare Vulkan. Twinlinked templates and melta and MCing hammers means you are very, very deadly up close, and someone closing for a charge may well pay dearly for it, as you can potentially push up and do monstrous damage first.

On a superficial level, Lysander is awesome. On a deeper level, he warps your army's behaviour in a potentially negative way without applying any army-wide buff that counters it. Very few Marine units want to get stuck in and stay there. Stubborn is far better on lower-I units or ones that lack ATSKNF.

GreyHamster wrote:The problem with stubborn is that it's not optional. I'd be delighted to take Lysander if I could keep combat tactics. But losing the ability to break tacticals out of a combat or fall back to shooting rather than get charged is enough of a downside that it makes Lysander a potential liability. Compare Vulkan. Twinlinked templates and melta and MCing hammers means you are very, very deadly up close, and someone closing for a charge may well pay dearly for it, as you can potentially push up and do monstrous damage first.

On a superficial level, Lysander is awesome. On a deeper level, he warps your army's behaviour in a potentially negative way without applying any army-wide buff that counters it. Very few Marine units want to get stuck in and stay there. Stubborn is far better on lower-I units or ones that lack ATSKNF.

I agree completely. That's why, I think someone mentioned it earlier, he should be taken as a secondary HQ if possible.

to be honest, I really don't buy this "losing combat tactics" as a bad thing. I think its a more or less useless rule. I don't know who you're playing against who would shoot your marines before charging them (unless you're not firing enough to kill 25%). Everyone I know learned that lesson pretty early on. And if your tac squad has been charged by 30 orks then you've pretty much lost the squad. I think stubborn has far more utility, in that whats left of your tac squad will survive (without taking fearless wounds) long enough for you to get something else in to help them.

I think Lysander is ace, sure vulkan is better, but if you're trying to go for something a bit less cheesy use the big man. he is entirely a beatstick, so don't try and use him for anything else. I think you really need the additional hitting power in an assault termi squad. Sure, they don't need the help, but its a massive shame not to multi charge with those big bases...

You clearly havn't seen combat tactics used well if you think it's useless. "Pretty much lost" is not 100% dead. If the squad is not 100% dead, it can still use combat tactics to fall back out of combat and potentially either not give up the KP or claim an objective later. Furthermore, you can now fire on the ork squad in your turn. If you didn't get out of the combat, that ork unit will have be able to skip being shot at for a turn.

Combat tactics is very far from useless. Its certainly no be-all, end-all ability, but it is strong when used correctly.

Lysander has his uses. Lysander, like vulkan and shrike, requires you to build your army around the idea of winning any CCs you get into. Lysander is only really great when he is in an army built for him to lead.

Make no mistake, Lysander is a powerhouse. I don't personally use him or any other special HQs in SM - I still feel that the librarian is the best compliment to the TH/SS terminators (which I would say are the strongest unit in the codex). However, Lysander should not be dismissed too quickly. He is a viable option in the right army.

What makes lysander awesome? He is an army in itself.

-If 5 Hammernators is needed to kill something, lysander can probably do it alone. Hammernators lose power when taking casualties, Lysander does not - until killed.

-Lysander is also Strength 10 - leaps and bounds from Str 8 and 9.

-What use is a bolter drill? put him along 10 sternguards in a drop pod and you will have a unit that can rarely be outshot and is fearsome to assault thanks to lysander!

comrade_nikolai wrote:to be honest, I really don't buy this "losing combat tactics" as a bad thing. I think its a more or less useless rule. I don't know who you're playing against who would shoot your marines before charging them (unless you're not firing enough to kill 25%). Everyone I know learned that lesson pretty early on. And if your tac squad has been charged by 30 orks then you've pretty much lost the squad. I think stubborn has far more utility, in that whats left of your tac squad will survive (without taking fearless wounds) long enough for you to get something else in to help them.

I think Lysander is ace, sure vulkan is better, but if you're trying to go for something a bit less cheesy use the big man. he is entirely a beatstick, so don't try and use him for anything else. I think you really need the additional hitting power in an assault termi squad. Sure, they don't need the help, but its a massive shame not to multi charge with those big bases...

Combat Tactics is the best skills the Marines have, right after ATSKNF. You just haven't seen it used right.

Alkasyn wrote:

comrade_nikolai wrote:to be honest, I really don't buy this "losing combat tactics" as a bad thing. I think its a more or less useless rule. I don't know who you're playing against who would shoot your marines before charging them (unless you're not firing enough to kill 25%). Everyone I know learned that lesson pretty early on. And if your tac squad has been charged by 30 orks then you've pretty much lost the squad. I think stubborn has far more utility, in that whats left of your tac squad will survive (without taking fearless wounds) long enough for you to get something else in to help them.

I think Lysander is ace, sure vulkan is better, but if you're trying to go for something a bit less cheesy use the big man. he is entirely a beatstick, so don't try and use him for anything else. I think you really need the additional hitting power in an assault termi squad. Sure, they don't need the help, but its a massive shame not to multi charge with those big bases...

Combat Tactics is the best skills the Marines have, right after ATSKNF. You just haven't seen it used right.

Not using it right is not the issue here. It's more like how limited its uses are.

Alkasyn wrote:You just haven't seen it used right.

How do you know that?

I'm DE, I don't shoot tac squads before I charge them, and when I win combat, I'm I6, so they're not getting away. What possible use is combat tactics now? ...whereas stubborn will stop you taking wounds. I think this is pretty universal; except for Orks, there aren't many things you'll be able to break away from, and against a good player you're never going to flee out of charge range because no one needs to shoot the squad to weaken it before charging.

combat tactics is an overrated rule that only comes into use against people that forget its existence or have never seen it used before.

Good question. Think about a 10 men Termie squad with 2 cyclones led by Lysander. I've done it. Its a scary unit the enemy doesn't want in his face. Add a Librarian with GOI for increased mobility.

He's a beatstick. A big yellow beatstick. He doesn't honestly help an army out much (I prefer having combat tactics over stubborn), but he's big and punchy.

Comat tactics + ATSKNF is one of SM most valuble abilities.If they get badly mauled,then they can fail the morale.If they break off,then they can just rapid fire on the squad.If they get caught in a sweeping advance,then they don't die,they suffer No Retreat!If they win,they win,no further discussion needed.

comrade_nikolai wrote:

Alkasyn wrote:You just haven't seen it used right.

How do you know that?

I'm DE, I don't shoot tac squads before I charge them, and when I win combat, I'm I6, so they're not getting away. What possible use is combat tactics now? ...whereas stubborn will stop you taking wounds. I think this is pretty universal; except for Orks, there aren't many things you'll be able to break away from, and against a good player you're never going to flee out of charge range because no one needs to shoot the squad to weaken it before charging.

combat tactics is an overrated rule that only comes into use against people that forget its existence or have never seen it used before.

How is that not a bonus in itself?? You pretty much say that a unit with combat tactics will never get shot up at all before being assaulted. I fail to see how that is not a bonus
Besides, at I6, Tacticals will still get away one time out of six


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:Good question. Think about a 10 men Termie squad with 2 cyclones led by Lysander. I've done it. Its a scary unit the enemy doesn't want in his face. Add a Librarian with GOI for increased mobility.

Thats a horrible unit, 800pts for 4 MLs and 10 TL stormbolters. Not to mention what a mess it would be to deepstrike 12 terminator bases.

I enjoy using Lysander with Assualt terminators, every game ive played he has never been killed, although i wish the same was true for his sqaud.

Personally I like lysander... He's a true CC beast, the Bolster ruin rule is great for your ML combat squads or your sniper scouts, and stubborn can be as useful as combat tactics...
Personally I used him 4-5 times (he's the "master khydor in my signature), i don't remember... my favourite tactic is to attach him to droppodded Sternies... We all know hat sternguard is great but you must play it aggresively... Lysander allows you to do that absorbing wounds and granting them bolter drill...
When something nasty approaches it's the time for Lysander to leave the unit and go to smash some stuff...

In the end, I think it's a great hq choice if youwant a very aggressive game with drop pods, aggressive Sterngiuards and close combat units like TH/SS termies or MM/HF dreddies... If you want gunline marines... no... he's not a good choice...