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Hey Dakka, I just started boyz in silver and I am thinking about getting a named character for my new army. I am currently debating on:

Lord Kalder Draigo
Castellan Crowe
Brother Captain Stern
Grand Master Mordrak

I do not own the Codex at the moment so I am calling out the models that are available on GW(Except Mordrak). Note: I am not interested in any Inquisitors. I'd like to build a complete silver army.
So if anyone could give me ideas what each of them could potentially do to my army and what each of them are good at, I would appreciate that.

Thanks!

Draigo for Paladins as troops ( 2 wound termies that can have FnP)

Crowe for Purifiers IIRC as troop choices, by far the most used.
Note he is not an IC

Stern havnt seen this guy used much like in the old dex. I blame the two previous guys as the reason.

What does Stern exactly do?

Stern's not really that good. He's basically a glorified Brother-Captain. Better to get a Grandmaster instead for his Grand Strategy.

Either that or Crowe or Draigo. You can't lose with either. It's more a matter of preference. Do you want tough, ultra-elite and the very good paladins? Or do you want the more versatile and also very good purifiers? Those are the 2 main competitive builds right now for the grey knights.

I'm not looking for any competitive lists here. I'm looking forward to having some easy-going, friendly games where both of us can laugh.

I've noticed that there's another named character: Mordrak.
Any thoughts on him?

Mordrak is chiefly a 'neat' character that you can play around with. He has the ability to take Stealthed Ghost Knight terminators as a retinue and make a no-scatter first turn Deep Strike, along with the usual Grand Master skills. He's kind of fun, but hard to build around. Due to his Ghost Knights, he's probably what you're looking for in the 'nifty' department, and painting up Ghost Knights is a nice aesthetic changeup in the army.

Draigo and Crowe are generally superior due to their ability to warp force org and take even more elite Troops in your army of Elites. Both are very dangerous in combat, Draigo due to statline and Crowe due to skills. Purifier spam is great fun, as properly equipped squads can reasonably handle almost anything other than a dedicated assault unit with good invulns.

Stern seems to me to be a sort of Crowe substitute. You'd run him with a terminator or paladin squad but split him off to make a solo-assault against the enemy and use his Zone of Banishment to force all models within d6" (probably most of the enemy squad that can hit him) to take an S test with no save or die. Unlike Cleansing Flame, which is done before any attacks are made, it goes off at Initiative 5, but it's going to remove 2/3 or half of the models from most units (unlike cleansing flame which tends to remove less than half from most units).

at 200 points, though, given he brings nothing else very special (his Strands of Fate re-rolls ability is a nice gimmick but very double-edged, especially as your opponent can hoard the rerolls he gets and splurge them near the end of the game whereas Stern is limited to one per phase) so he's really an HQ fo a terminator list or a secondary HQ (but Librarians are better support HQ choices really). he's tougher than Crowe and if he gets lucky could do some horrific damage to enemy elite units and leaders (Crowe will probably kill one enemy leader if he gets into base contact and dies, but then he's dead, while Stern can potentially do his psychic trick several times).

So I think while Stern could be fun to play a few times, building a list around him will, I the long run, prove rather frustrating. A competitive build is not necessarily not a fun one to play (for you and your opponent) and, I think, has longer replay value as its successes will tend to be less random than a less competitive build.

But if you want an army that has lots of special abilities and you're not too bothered about synergy between units, you could run something like:

Stern -- 200
Crowe -- 150

5 Paladins, 2 psycannon, hammer, 3 halberds -- 315

5 Purifiers, hammer, stave, 3 halberds, psybolt-Razorback -- 206
5 Purifiers, hammer, stave, 3 halberds, psybolt-Razorback -- 206
10 Purifiers, hammer, 4 psycannon, 5 halberds, Rhino -- 335

Stormraven, TL multi-melta, TL plasma cannon -- 205

Dreadknight, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter -- 235
Dreadnought, assauklt cannon, psybolts, heavy flamer, psyflame -- 145

1997 points.

My choices are

Crowe
Brotherhood Champion

These are the only two characters I use. I highly recommend the bro champion.

Mordrak excels in super agressive shunt-armies (made of multiple Dreadknights with Teleporter and (often) Interceptor Squads). These lists need Grand Strategy to unlock their full potential: nasty alpha strike capabilities via first turn assaults hitting the enemies soft spots and outmanouvering your opponent. With Mordrak you won't have to spent points for an overpriced transport (considering how expensive the hard hitting elements in the list are you just won't have points left for a Raven or Raider) and thanks to his first turn teleport without scatter he and his ghostly bodyguard will be able to cause even more chaos and damage first turn (adding to the strenght of the list).
People tend to stick a Librarian to Mordrak's unit, but IMO that's something you should utterly avoid if you're not playing a Ghostwing (Mordrak+Ghosts+ 1-2 full units of Terminators deep striking using Mordrak's Psychic Communion and the Scriptor's teleport homer, another valid way to make a solid list containing Mordrak), as the both the Scriptor's teleport homer and most of his powers will be wasted (the squad already got stealth and your Ghosts should be equipped with Halberds so there is little sense in a "your turn only" initiative boost) while turning the unit in a big point sink (something you should avoid, after all that's one of the reasons you play Mordrak). Instead you should rather add an unbelievable cheap Malleus Inquisitor with TDA and PC (and maybe skulls if you got points left) to the unit which both increases the staying power of the unit (able to soak small arm's fire which would kill 3 normal Termis instead), slighty increases the reliability (stubborn, most useful against IG Psykers) and most important offers the heavy weapon the Ghosts lack to make the most use of the accurate deployment method, all this for just 15 pts more than a normal PC wielding Terminator.

In other lists Mordrak is less optimal, while he offers nice distraction abillities for a cheap price he often tends to be isolated in the enemies deployment zone and get shot up with small arms fire while the rest of your army is still marching towards the enemy. As soon as you play a mech heavy army or intend to use terminators in a Stormraven/Raider you're better off with a regular GM which gets Grand Strategy, a 5 pts. Incinerator and auto-win Grenades.

Model wise Mordrak is the most money efficient GK character, with a normal GK-Terminator box you get both an HQ and 4 additional Ghost Knights.

To make an example of a typical Mordrak list here's the shunt-punch army I run (and with which I have lots of success in a highly competitive environment:

HQ
Mordrak
4 Ghosts with Halberds and Brotherhood Banner (a purely cosmetic and not that optimal choice not that good with just 6 bodies in the unit)
+ Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator Armour, NDH and Psycannon

Elite
Vindicare-Assassin

Troops
10x men Strike Squad with 2 PCs, Hammer on the Justicar
+ Rhino

5x men Strike Squad with 1 PC (objective holding only)

Fast Attack
5x men Interceptor Squad with 1 PC and MC-NDH on Justicar

Heavy Support
Psy-Rifleman

Dreadknight with PT and Incinerator

Dreadknight with PT and Incinerator
1750 Points
(Grand Strategy: Scout for the two Dreadknights and the 10x men Strike Squad (on a roll of 5 or 6 only); Scoring if I'm forced to play with more than 3 objectives))

Would anyone explain to me how his Ghost Knights work? I've heard that one springs up after he takes a wound.... sorry, I don't have my dex in front of me as of now....
Also, how about making 10-man Interceptor Squad or a 2, 5-man squad instead up in that list?

Diesel Stradin wrote:Would anyone explain to me how his Ghost Knights work? I've heard that one springs up after he takes a wound.... sorry, I don't have my dex in front of me as of now....
Also, how about making 10-man Interceptor Squad or a 2, 5-man squad instead up in that list?

At the end of every phase that Mordrak takes a wound you roll a D3. If you roll equal to or greater than the remaining number of wounds, a Ghost Knight with NFS and SB spawns.

Diesel Stradin wrote:Would anyone explain to me how his Ghost Knights work? I've heard that one springs up after he takes a wound.... sorry, I don't have my dex in front of me as of now....

If Mordrak takes a wound (or wounds, there are still discussions going on if you can roll multiple times for one phase) you roll a D3 at the end of the phase. If you roll equal or higher than Mordrak's remaining wounds, he spawns an additional Ghost Knight armed with a NF-sword. However if he dies while there are still Ghosts on the table (unlikely as he can't be picked out thanks to retinue rules, got 4 wounds with 2+/4++ and he spawns additional bodies, but might happen) they are removed as well (Mordrak won't give up a KP himself however).

Also, how about making 10-man Interceptor Squad or a 2, 5-man squad instead up in that list?

My list was just an example for how a typical Mordrak Shunt-Punch looks like, you aren't forced to play exactly this list or even this type of list.
To your question: The reason is simple: I lack points. I'm however considering to get rid of the Vindicare (gets insta-gibbed too often in the first two turns for my tastes) and replace him with 5 additional Interceptors (forming a splitable 10 men unit) with a Psycannon and MC for the SS-Justicar for quite some time now. However I'll try to make the Vindicare work for now, I just lack the money right now for additional plastic dudes.

Also on that note, I've been considering some assassins. How do you like the Vindicare? I've heard that he can put a world of hurt on in some terrain.

Vindicator= Vindicare

He can be effective and is probably the most used out of all the assassin choices. The problem is he eats up an elite slot. Which I prefer to use on Venerable Dreads. I know people won't agree with me but I prefer the Culexus Assassin.

all the assassins are boss.

my Vindicare assassin actually got assaulted by some assault marines with a PF and survived 2 rounds of combat(while killing several) long enough for some terminators to save him. this was after he shot Dante with a shield breaker round and removed his invuln.

All of the assassins are good it's just that the vindicare is good in any situation since he shoots well, while the other assassins are only useful in certain situations

Any opinions on Eversor Assassins here? I'd like to use him but.... I think he kinda sucks. I can't attach him to squads and I'm sure a whole bunch of guns are going to be pointing at him... not to mention that he is a lot of points.

Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Stern does not seem particularly bad, but on the other hand he doesn't really add anything. Seems more of a fluff choice, and kinda uninteresting.

Mordrak, for just a fun army, has some really neat implications, and can let you do some fun things.

Lord Draigo is clearly the winner of the bunch, though. He is personally phenomenally badass, and scoring paladins is really useful. Both a 5 man squad with 2 psycannons and a solodin can do wonderful things.

I would point you to my 1850 and 2500 pt lists, respectively, for good draigo lists that are not really "Draigo-wing" which can be a problem. If you're letting everything hand on big sqauds of paladins, certain armies will massacre you.

1850: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/

2500: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/i-came-in-2nd-in-the-40k-ard-boyz/

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Mordrak excels in super agressive shunt-armies (made of multiple Dreadknights with Teleporter and (often) Interceptor Squads).

I'm not sure I understand why Mordrak works so well with a shunt army? Is it just because you can have multiple units sitting right there on the door step tunr 1, creating multiple instances of "pressure"?

I don't play crowe pluc Purifiers myself but jv2 has great success with them (see his battle reports). And having been on the receiving end of Crowe's magical autokill attack, I don't think he's useless.

Otherwise I'm in broad agreement with your assessment of the characters but personally I'd rate them (taking into account the lists that they can build around them, and personal effectiveness) as:

Crowe
Draigo
Modrak
Stern

Sir_Prometheus wrote:I'm not sure I understand why Mordrak works so well with a shunt army? Is it just because you can have multiple units sitting right there on the door step tunr 1, creating multiple instances of "pressure"?

I don't know how people in your area react to such things, but my opponents tend to be quite frustrated when their nice and shiny Land Raiders and Russes get smashed by s7+2W6 Autohits before they even moved. Or the look on the face of a Space Wolves player when both of his long fang missile support squads get eaten by Monstrous creatures without ever firing a shot. Or when my 10 men SS-Squad suddenly makes a scout move and fires 8 Psycannon shots from a now in range stationary Rhino. Not to forget the Interceptor+Inquisitor Psycannons pulling off side or rear armour shots on whatever tank is left on the field. You gotta love Grand Strategy.

12" from my table edge + 12" scout move + 12" normal jump pack move + 6" assault range turn 1. People just hate it.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Russes get smashed by s7+2W6 Autohits before they even moved.

What GK unit can correspond to that?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:Russes get smashed by s7+2W6 Autohits before they even moved.

What GK unit can correspond to that?

Dreadknight with activated Hammerhand during a first turn charge (not hard to pull off with max deployment distance + scout move + normal move + 6" charge).

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Tell that to all those Purifier lists romping through Ard Boyz.

You seem to have equated the weakness of a Paladin army with Purifiers.


Purifiers, while they are still just 3+ saves, are very good when meched up. Landraiders and Stormravens make excellent assault delivery for them and Rhinos are good for their psycannons to unload from.


Crowe is the ultimate tarpit. get him stuck in, using Blade Shield and Cleansing Flame he will easily destroy power blobs, wytch squads, ork mobs, Nid swarms. all without dying at all, unless you roll horribly.

Grey Templar wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Tell that to all those Purifier lists romping through Ard Boyz.

You seem to have equated the weakness of a Paladin army with Purifiers.


Purifiers, while they are still just 3+ saves, are very good when meched up. Landraiders and Stormravens make excellent assault delivery for them and Rhinos are good for their psycannons to unload from.


Crowe is the ultimate tarpit. get him stuck in, using Blade Shield and Cleansing Flame he will easily destroy power blobs, wytch squads, ork mobs, Nid swarms. all without dying at all, unless you roll horribly.

Just because a lot of people play it, doesn't make it good. "ZOMG, they get like 2 attacks, and you can put 2 psycannons in 5 men!" It's just not a ablative wounds, much better to use GKSS for the same purpose. And I have smashed like 4 or 5 different Crowe + plus purifier lists already, partly with Draigo and Paladins, no less.

BTW, blade shield doesn't work so well with Crowe. He only has a 4+ save, I hope you realize so re-rolls, he only saves 3/4ths of invo saves. Conversely, a lowly brotherhood champion will save 8/9th of saves. Much more than makes up for the difference in wounds, plus he can actually do what a champion is supposed to do, buff a squad.

Now, why would you think I'm confusing Paladins and purifiers, somehow?

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:I'm not sure I understand why Mordrak works so well with a shunt army? Is it just because you can have multiple units sitting right there on the door step tunr 1, creating multiple instances of "pressure"?

I don't know how people in your area react to such things, but my opponents tend to be quite frustrated when their nice and shiny Land Raiders and Russes get smashed by s7+2W6 Autohits before they even moved. Or the look on the face of a Space Wolves player when both of his long fang missile support squads get eaten by Monstrous creatures without ever firing a shot. Or when my 10 men SS-Squad suddenly makes a scout move and fires 8 Psycannon shots from a now in range stationary Rhino. Not to forget the Interceptor+Inquisitor Psycannons pulling off side or rear armour shots on whatever tank is left on the field. You gotta love Grand Strategy.

12" from my table edge + 12" scout move + 12" normal jump pack move + 6" assault range turn 1. People just hate it.

OK..........but that's depending on a few different things. Namely that you both get first turn, and it's a 12" deployment. By rights, that's only 1/2 and 1/3 of the time, respectively. And of course, if you went first, you probably deployed first, which means the enemy can deploy away from you. And, you're giving up other benefits that Grand Strategy might give you, and it depends upon how many you get on your d3.

I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but it does seem a bit situational, and depends to an extent upon your enemy being stupid, which is never a good thing.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Now I just have to respond to this. To call Crowe useless is just absolute ignorance. And you're calling a purifier army silly? Methinks you haven't played against a decent Crowe-purifier army before.

Purifiers are great for their versatility and a Crowe-purifier-dread build is probably one of the most balanced GK builds around. They can take on almost any other army. Paladins are good, but they're just not as balanced and flexible as a purifier army. Why? Because there's mainly 1 way to play paladins, and that's aggressive. With paladins, you're basically looking to push them into the heat of combat as quickly as possible. They are mainly a "fire" army and can be dealt with in the usual way - get out of their way with superior mobility, block them with screening/tarpit units, or just out-shoot them (or out-assault them). Purifiers, on the other hand, are a true "water" army - they are flexible enough to react to any type of army. Going up against a shooty army? Push forwards and assault them. Playing against an assault army? Form a gunline and shoot, moving back if you have to (no heavy weapons to restrict their movement).

Now I'm not saying paladins are not good. They are also a very good and competitive GK build. But the lack of tactical flexibility in a Draigo-paladin build makes them not as balanced as a purifier build. This, IMO, is what makes a Crowe-purifier build a slightly better all-comer's GK army than a Draigo-paladin one.

Alright... some very good ideas/opinions/comments out here... Thanks guys for giving me some solid ideas and thoughts!

As of now, I am considering Mordrak with his Ghost retinue army. Obviously with this choice, I am putting $$$ and 'fun' factor above competitiveness.

If you happen to run Mordrak and/or have opinions on him, please, by all means, post here. I would appreciate any tips.

Mordrak basically functions as the head of a shunt-punch force.

you take Mordrak and friends, possably another Grandmaster or Librarian depending on the points value, Interceptor squads, and Dreadknights. Not sure what troops you should run, but its probably open to presonal taste.


Mordrak gives Interceptors and/or dreadknights scout and Deep Strike Mordrak. If you take a Librarian, have him join Mordrak and give him a Teliport homer. then you can deep strike your troops choices in on target if you want and the homer will be in position turn 1.

the Dreadknights and Interceptors scout forward with their 12" moves, and then in the first turn of the game will move forward and either assault or shoot enemy units up depending on the opprotunities presented.

if you don't get first turn, you could opt to reserve and outflank the units with Scouts instead of deploying forwards. this will give you a late game trump card in the form of fast moving shooty/assaulty units that can contest objectives. you also have Psychic Communion so they arrive when you want them.

Here's what I am currently thinking of. By all means, no proper upgrades and point values have been worked out so this is going to be a rough blue-print.


HQ

Mordrak
Termie squad x 5
Librarian


Troops

5-man Strike Squad
5-man Strike Squad


Fast Attack

10-man Interceptor
10-man Interceptor


Elite

Assassin (Vindicare most likely for now...)


Heavy Support

Dreadknight
Dreadknight



As long as its not an objective game, I shouldn't be completely obliterated... right? And even if it is, that's where the Grand Strategy comes into play I think. I'm guessing that I've loaded up Mordrak and friends with a bit too much cheese but hey, I'd like to see my Tau friend's face when I bypass his wall of Kroots and drop right infront of his Broadsides. Anything too terribly wrong with this kind of set up?

Ghost Knights max at 5 to start with. you can get more as Mordrak takes wounds.

Edited.... thank you very much for pointing that out.