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I've never played Modrak nor faced him so this is just thinking aloud. I'm not trying to say don't use him or that he's rubbish, just trying to identify the problems I foresee if he's used.

The biggest problem with Modrak is that when you deepstrike him right in your enemy's face, he is a wonderful target for as much of their plasma, melta, lascannon and similar horror that can be brought to bear because all he can do is come in and shoot (and the squad + M + Librarian shooting amounts to 7 stormbolters, which isn't puny but is distinctly unimpressive in the grand scheme of things).

So I think you have to deepstrike him into cover, risking losing a Ghost Knight, or two if you're unlucky, to dangerous terrain (but of course the enemy will probably be hogging all the cover, selfish swines that they are) or, better, forego shooting and run into cover (if available).

If you don't run, any plasma cannon hit will get 6/7 models. It therefore takes an average of 3 BS4 plasma cannon shots to wipe the squad bar Modrak who'll have taken a wound or two. 3 lascannon or melta shots then kill Modrak. Granted, that's one of the worst scenarios (though much worse is a vindicator blast, though if you strike close to an enemy squad he might not be able to place it or might fear scatter.)

If the enemy lacks plasma, given he hits 2/3, wounds 5/6 and kills 2/3 with AP1 and 2 weapons, it'll take him about 3 shots per model if he's no plasma cannon, which is 21 shots so he's unlikely to be able to wipe the squad because not all such weapons will be able to be brought to bear (and he'll want to be toasting your assassin anyway). If the squad gets cover from the shots then it's about 3.5 shots per model, which would be 25 or so.

Nonetheless, in most circumstances, Modrak is going to lose 2-3 Knights to enemy fire and while 4 or 6 Initiative 6 force weapon attacks are likely to kill 3 or so of the enemy, if they're assaulted by anything decent probably only Modrak will be left at the end. He'll take a couple more of the enemy (maybe 3) and so will probably win combat, but he'll be looking awful lonely and turn two he's almost certainly dead, the appearance of single ghost knight in support notwithstanding. At 2000 points, 25% of your army is gone and I'd suggest it's highly unlikely they'll have done more than made one enemy squad run from the board.

Possibly if you go second, you have more of an advantage as the enemy will tend to move forward

EDIT: SabrX's recent battle report (tau vs Grey Knights) seems to give support tom the 'Modrak is toast' hypothesis advanced in this post...

jy2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Now I just have to respond to this. To call Crowe useless is just absolute ignorance. And you're calling a purifier army silly? Methinks you haven't played against a decent Crowe-purifier army before.

Purifiers are great for their versatility and a Crowe-purifier-dread build is probably one of the most balanced GK builds around. They can take on almost any other army. Paladins are good, but they're just not as balanced and flexible as a purifier army. Why? Because there's mainly 1 way to play paladins, and that's aggressive. With paladins, you're basically looking to push them into the heat of combat as quickly as possible. They are mainly a "fire" army and can be dealt with in the usual way - get out of their way with superior mobility, block them with screening/tarpit units, or just out-shoot them (or out-assault them). Purifiers, on the other hand, are a true "water" army - they are flexible enough to react to any type of army. Going up against a shooty army? Push forwards and assault them. Playing against an assault army? Form a gunline and shoot, moving back if you have to (no heavy weapons to restrict their movement).

Now I'm not saying paladins are not good. They are also a very good and competitive GK build. But the lack of tactical flexibility in a Draigo-paladin build makes them not as balanced as a purifier build. This, IMO, is what makes a Crowe-purifier build a slightly better all-comer's GK army than a Draigo-paladin one.

I thoroughly agree with this post. I'm running a Crowe list and the beauty of the Purifiers is their flexibility. I want an all comers list and I think Crowe best delivers that from the codex. Although I appreciate the irony that a Draigowing list is well placed to trounce a Crowe list. The biggest challenge I've found is dealing with well armoured infantry.

about Mordrak,

You can mitigate this by deep striking behind, rather then in, cover. you still get that 3+ cover save and arn't risking the dangerous terrain test. which frankly isn't all that scary. Its an acceptable risk for a potentially deadly assault unit.

that is what the Ghost knights are supposed to do, assault stuff. shooting is for everyone else in the army.

Grey Templar wrote:about Mordrak,

You can mitigate this by deep striking behind, rather then in, cover. you still get that 3+ cover save and arn't risking the dangerous terrain test. which frankly isn't all that scary. Its an acceptable risk for a potentially deadly assault unit.

that is what the Ghost knights are supposed to do, assault stuff. shooting is for everyone else in the army.

Dito. I deep-strike at least 50% of the squad into cover most of the time, which means that only Mordrak, the Malleus Inquisitor and maybe 1 or 2 Halberd-Ghosts will have to take a test. Most of the time nothing happens at all, the chances of rolling a 1 AND failing a 5++ save (or 4++ save if it hits Mordrak) are quite slim. If Mordrak or the Inquisitor suffer a wound I won't care much, they are there to soak wounds after all, Mordrak still run around with solid 3 wounds and might even spawn another Ghost. In all my games with the list (19 so far) I've only lost 2 Halberdiers total to bad luck. The risks through Dangerous Terrain are exaggerated most of the time, there are plenty of ways to lower the risk and the increased survivabilty against Ap 1-2 weapons more than makes up for the slim chance to lose a guy

As Grey Templar pointed out the Ghosts are first and foremost an assault unit which can be placed EVERYWHERE on the table (something people seem to forget, why should I teleport them right in front of some nasty counter assault units or units wielding 15+ plasma guns?) and a good player will therefore place them somewhere where they will do serious damage to Objective holding units or support units like Obliterators which won't be able to seriously damage the unit in the one shooting phase (after all they still get a 3+ cover save) it get's before getting charged, while minimizing line of sight and maximizing distance to other shooty elements in the opponents list. Therefore the enemy has to use multiple units to deal with the thread, wihile the other 80% of the GK army shoot/shunt-punch them to death.

jy2 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Crowe is useless. He's an awful model on his own, and I think trying to make the bulk of your troops out of Purifiers is just silly. They're too expensive in comparison to their durability. You want GKSS for the numbers or GKT for durability for the troops.

Now I just have to respond to this. To call Crowe useless is just absolute ignorance. And you're calling a purifier army silly?

Yes, yes I am.

Methinks you haven't played against a decent Crowe-purifier army before.

I've played against several Crowe armies, but I don't believe a "good" crowe list exists. It's a newbs army. It's easy to put together, doesn't require a lot of thought, and is relatively fail safe, but it doesn't have the tools required to take down many kinds of enemies. It's also pretty points inefficient. I think purifiers are great, but only as seasoning in an otherwise well rounded army, they should never be the bulk of your force.

Crowe himself is a waste of points. He's an alright fighter, but not devastating, and otherwise really doesn't have anything to offer. And how are you going to get him into combat? Dedicate an entire transport to him? Hope and pray the enemy gets stupid and wanders withing 12" of him?

Purifiers are great for their versatility and a Crowe-purifier-dread build is probably one of the most balanced GK builds around.

You have dramatically different ideas of "balanced" and "versatility" than I do.

They can take on almost any other army

OH? How are you going to do against a DE army with night shields? With Wyches, and dark lances, and plenty of anti-infantry dakka?

Paladins are good, but they're just not as balanced and flexible as a purifier army. Why? Because there's mainly 1 way to play paladins, and that's aggressive. With paladins, you're basically looking to push them into the heat of combat as quickly as possible. They are mainly a "fire" army and can be dealt with in the usual way - get out of their way with superior mobility, block them with screening/tarpit units, or just out-shoot them (or out-assault them).

I'm not sure you know how to use, or not use Paladins. And you're going to outshoot a 5 man unit of paladins with 2 psycannons? Do I have to do the mathhammer for you on that? You, as purifiers, are actually going to do a much better job against them in CC, so I'm not sure where your thought process is coming from.

And what tarpit units do you have, exactly? You have nothing but overpriced purifiers.

Great tactical advice, btw, "out-shoot, or out-assault them". Oh, good! I'll be sure to try that sometime.

Now I'm not saying paladins are not good. They are also a very good and competitive GK build. But the lack of tactical flexibility in a Draigo-paladin build makes them not as balanced as a purifier build. This, IMO, is what makes a Crowe-purifier build a slightly better all-comer's GK army than a Draigo-paladin one.

Now, why, just because I said Draigo and some paladins are good, do you think I'm using a "Draigo-wing" army? I don't use Draigo-wing, which you should know since I did post a link to my lists, and I don't think Draigo-wing is particularly good. All paladins would be just as silly as all purifiers, with the notable difference that Draigo is completely worth the points, huge as they are.

Once more, here are my lists:

1850: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/

2500: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/i-came-in-2nd-in-the-40k-ard-boyz/

and my batreps from the hardboys, for good measure: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/ard-boyz-battle-reports/

I don't personally use any named characters in my current lists, my twin GMs have been doing great so far, giving awesome flexability for missions, excellent reserve manipulation, and good grenade dispensers. I've started coming up with some Crowe lists, but I haven't been able to get excited about that sort of list, just kinda... bleh. I still run purifiers, but as elites that can score if needed via grand strategy. My lists are weird though, sort of horde PA Grey knights.

I like the idea of Mordrak, but IMO there are only certain builds he can be used in well. I'd be sure to make sure you have other units in the list that are real fast, but normally would need saturation to get stuck in. Interceptors, Dreadknights, Stormravens all come to mind. Dropping Mordrak in a threatening position, followed by shunting units and a Raven or two going fast should overload your opponents guns making for a very successful GK second turn. That said, it might not work so well against certain armies (Orks, Nids) that want you to close fast so they themselves can avoid your shooting.

As for the others, Coteaz is a solid choice, even if not bringing tons of henchmen. I've never understood why so many people bring Draigo, overpriced IMO, but if others get him to work then thats cool. Stern just seems over specialized, Karamazov is sorta a one trick pony, not sure what to do with Valeria.

People bring Draigo because he is a colossal badass. I wouldn't take JUST to have a badass, he should serve other purposes, but he's really is worth the full, 275 pts. He's also quite excellent to tank for a unit of Paladins, make them earn THEIR points.

In something like 18 battles now, he has died only twice. And both those battles were wins, so he did not die in vain.

Purifier lists have the same tools as a Paladin list.

You can take Psyfleman Dreadnoughts and other ranged support just as effectivly as a Paladin list, even more as Purifiers arn't as points expensive as Paladins.

Purifers can also take DTs, Paladins can't.


Paladins are a good list, Purifier lists are too. I don't like Paladin lists, but thats opinion and I won't say its a horrible build.

What's a purifer list, what's a paladin list? I like both units just fine, but not to make up the bulk of an army. IN combination with lots of other stuff, including GKSS and dreads, and other things like DK and SR and LRs, sure.

Ok, now you're playing dumb.

a Paladin list is Draigo and Paladins as troops. Purifiers is Crowe and Purifiers as troops. both are very viable lists, in my opinion I think the Purifier build is slightly better.

Strike Squads and basic terminators are good troops. so are Purifiers and Paladins.



Purifiers have an advantage in that they can take 4 psycannons per squad of 10, or 2 in a squad of 5. this makes them more effective as a mech shooty force. 5 man Purifiers in Rhinos each with 2 psycannons is cheaper then the equivilant amount of shooting from a GKSS.

10 man purifier units are deadly in both shooting and assault.

Grey Templar wrote:Ok, now you're playing dumb.

a Paladin list is Draigo and Paladins as troops. Purifiers is Crowe and Purifiers as troops. both are very viable lists, in my opinion I think the Purifier build is slightly better.

Strike Squads and basic terminators are good troops. so are Purifiers and Paladins.

I wasn't playing dumb. I think both purifiers and Paladins can be good in an army. I think either used as the bulk of the army is a bad plan. So I was asking at what point do you call it a "paladin list" or "Draigo list", if you're talking about lists where those are the only troops, that's a bad plan.

Purifiers have an advantage in that they can take 4 psycannons per squad of 10, or 2 in a squad of 5. this makes them more effective as a mech shooty force. 5 man Purifiers in Rhinos each with 2 psycannons is cheaper then the equivilant amount of shooting from a GKSS.

10 man purifier units are deadly in both shooting and assault.

This is a bad plan. I know it looks shiny and OP to put 4 psycannons in squad, but it really isn't good idea. 1) Ablative wounds are good, with only 5 guys total, enemy dakka will wind up eating into your psycannons real quick. 2) It's not equivalent shooting. Massed stormbolters are a beautiful thing, massed Str 5 bolters are freaking gorgeous.

10 GKSS with 2 psycannons and Str 5 bolters will both out shoot and are cheaper than 10 purifiers with 4 psycannons, with or without the halberds. Yes, the purifiers are better in CC, but it's not going to come to that, because either unit is going to do the bulk of their work at 24". Not to mention that the GKSS have warp quake, and can deep strike themselves, and score natively. The fact that you have to pay the "crowe" tax is just adding insult to injury.

If you want to talk about 5 man squads, than your unit is still expensive, but fragile and underpowered. Once they pop your rhino, you'll be feeling each bolter shot pretty powerfully. On the other hand, a 10 man GKSS can move 12", have the bodies to be comfortable getting out of the rhino, and lay down fire, with the Str 5 bolters perfectly capable of suppressing rhinos in turn. It's a much more effective use of points.

I'm telling you, the Crowe army is a shiny lure for the new and inexperienced.

Meh, you don't know what you are missing.

I don't? I suppose I haven't seen that list a dozen times already, fought it at least 4 or 5?

Trust me. Keep your purifiers, but spread them out. Use them for seasoning, not meat. Ditch Crowe, he's a waste, get something like a Grand Master with crazy'nades, which will let you make them still scoring, when the mission demands. Build your army upon GKSS with psybolts. You'll be amazed A) at the extra room you'll have in your army and B) how effective that Str 5 is.

I have done strike squads too. I just havn't been as impressed with them as my Purifiers. I like the 4 psycannons in squad, thats 16 shots if you stand still. in cover that is a deadly unit.

Strike Squads are good inclusions as 5 man squads in rhinos or razorbacks for scoring purposes that you never intend to disembark.


Purifiers also play more like the old DH GKs did, as a water army. they are a very reactive force that is extremely flexable. Flexable is a good thing in the competitive enviroment.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
I've played against several Crowe armies, but I don't believe a "good" crowe list exists. It's a newbs army. It's easy to put together, doesn't require a lot of thought, and is relatively fail safe, but it doesn't have the tools required to take down many kinds of enemies. It's also pretty points inefficient. I think purifiers are great, but only as seasoning in an otherwise well rounded army, they should never be the bulk of your force.

Not much I can say about that....except that I totally disagree. An army made up of entirely purifier troops (with some support units such as dreads) is a very competitive build. You are right that it is easier to play, but that is because purifiers are just so flexible. And au contraire to being points inefficient, they are very points efficient. What 5-man unit can take on hordes, have good ranged shooting (up to 24") and are also a decent force in close combat against many other units as well? And all for only about 150pts? What's more efficient than a super-versatile unit that can do most things well? You want to call that inefficient, be my guest. Me? I'm winning with this "inefficient" unit.

Crowe himself is a waste of points. He's an alright fighter, but not devastating, and otherwise really doesn't have anything to offer. And how are you going to get him into combat? Dedicate an entire transport to him? Hope and pray the enemy gets stupid and wanders withing 12" of him?

You really do have a lot to learn about Crowe. More powerful than any actual damage he may do is the threat that he represents to certain armies (those with assault-based HQ's or large hordes). Against these armies, he will change the way they play. Anytime you can throw your opponent off his gameplan is a good thing. And for those that choose to ignore him or under-estimate him, the result is that they lose their HQ. Remember, it's not just Crowe that they're dealing with. They've also got to deal with the more-perceived-threats - the purifiers - as well as dreads destroying their transports. They will ignore Crowe initially as he isn't a threat until he is close.

My Crowe always get into combat. How? Because he is actually a support unit and just follows the action. In other words, he moves along with my purifiers. Unless my opponent is playing a shooty army (i.e. Tau) who is trying to avoid "action", in almost every single game I've played, Crowe has seen action, just as my purifiers have seen action. It's not very hard. And if my opponent's HQ is ducking my HQ, great! You don't necessarily have to neutralize the opposing stud by killing him. If I can keep him away from battle (or delay him), then it's a tactical advantage for me.

You have dramatically different ideas of "balanced" and "versatility" than I do

Then what is your idea of balanced or versatility? And why do you think a Crowe-purifier build is unbalanced?

OH? How are you going to do against a DE army with night shields? With Wyches, and dark lances, and plenty of anti-infantry dakka?

My dreads could give a rat's arse about night shields. I promise you I will outshoot any DE army. IMO, for them to compete against the grey knights (and especially against a shooty Crowe-purifier build), they need beastpacks.

I'm not sure you know how to use, or not use Paladins. And you're going to outshoot a 5 man unit of paladins with 2 psycannons? Do I have to do the mathhammer for you on that? You, as purifiers, are actually going to do a much better job against them in CC, so I'm not sure where your thought process is coming from.

No...but my army will. Talking about individual units in a vacuum is silly. There's no way a 5-man unit of purifiers will beat a 5-man unit of paladins (though for almost the same price as the 5-man paladin unit, you can get 10-purifiers). I wouldn't even try. However, I look at it from the army's perspective and in that regards, my purifiers will outshoot a paladin army, especially when I have 20 S8 TL-autocannon shots that will insta-gib those pallies.

So I'll save you the mathhammer exercises. I draw from real-game experience instead.

And what tarpit units do you have, exactly? You have nothing but overpriced purifiers.

Great tactical advice, btw, "out-shoot, or out-assault them". Oh, good! I'll be sure to try that sometime.

It's all really simple. If you have a more shooty army like guards, DE, Tau or even my own dread-purifier army, you just shoot them. If you have an assault army like assault terminators, orks, daemons, etc., you assault them with it. Paladins are good, but they can be overcome with numbers (or massed S8 attacks). Now whether or not you can beat them that way is another thing. The thing is, paladins have decent shooting and are good in assault....but there are always better.

Now, why, just because I said Draigo and some paladins are good, do you think I'm using a "Draigo-wing" army? I don't use Draigo-wing, which you should know since I did post a link to my lists, and I don't think Draigo-wing is particularly good. All paladins would be just as silly as all purifiers, with the notable difference that Draigo is completely worth the points, huge as they are.

Once more, here are my lists:

1850: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/

2500: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/i-came-in-2nd-in-the-40k-ard-boyz/

and my batreps from the hardboys, for good measure: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/ard-boyz-battle-reports/

One of the good things about the new GK codex is their flexibility. You can build a purifier army. You can build a paladin army, or you can build a hybrid army. All will still be competitive. Honestly, I don't really care what type of army you run, but I do take issue with your dismissal of a purifier army as an "inefficient army without the tools to take down many types of armies". Just because you beat a couple of them does not mean they "suck".

inefficient army without the tools to take down many types of armies

What armies, specifically, are these and what, specifically does your list allow you to do that is more efficient against these many types of armies?

jv2 has many battle reposts where he shows how flexible the Crowe/Purifier/Dreadnought build is. He doesn't always win of course but if it's an inefficient build then he must be a player of some rare skill (which of course he may well be too).

Crowe himself is a waste of points. He's an alright fighter, but not devastating, and otherwise really doesn't have anything to offer. And how are you going to get him into combat? Dedicate an entire transport to him? Hope and pray the enemy gets stupid and wanders withing 12" of him?

You really do have a lot to learn about Crowe. More powerful than any actual damage he may do is the threat that he represents to certain armies (those with assault-based HQ's or large hordes). Against these armies, he will change the way they play. Anytime you can throw your opponent off his gameplan is a good thing. And for those that choose to ignore him or under-estimate him, the result is that they lose their HQ. Remember, it's not just Crowe that they're dealing with. They've also got to deal with the more-perceived-threats - the purifiers - as well as dreads destroying their transports. They will ignore Crowe initially as he isn't a threat until he is close.

I have literally only lost to a purifer based list once, and that was months ago when were all still getting used to the new codex. You take a combat unit, purifiers, over-generalize them by making 2 of them suited for the shooting game, that's not efficient. You've made a unit that is kinda good at everything, but doesn't excel at anything (except lighting Orks on fire). Being hard to misuse is nice, but it doesn't make it efficient. You only think it's efficient because you haven't done the Math.

My Crowe always get into combat. How? Because he is actually a support unit and just follows the action. In other words, he moves along with my purifiers. Unless my opponent is playing a shooty army (i.e. Tau) who is trying to avoid "action", in almost every single game I've played, Crowe has seen action, just as my purifiers have seen action. It's not very hard. And if my opponent's HQ is ducking my HQ, great! You don't necessarily have to neutralize the opposing stud by killing him. If I can keep him away from battle (or delay him), then it's a tactical advantage for me.

If we're playing Kill points, I'm likely to shoot him just for the free kill point. If it's objectives, I'm just as likely to ignore him.

OH? How are you going to do against a DE army with night shields? With Wyches, and dark lances, and plenty of anti-infantry dakka?

My dreads could give a rat's arse about night shields. I promise you I will outshoot any DE army. IMO, for them to compete against the grey knights (and especially against a shooty Crowe-purifier build), they need beastpacks.

OK, great. You have 3 psyfleman dreads, they have like 12-14 fast skimmers that each have a Darklance or three. The entire rest of your army can't hit them from outside 18". You may very well down 3 raiders a turn. How many turns do you expect the dreadnought to last?

I'm not sure you know how to use, or not use Paladins. And you're going to outshoot a 5 man unit of paladins with 2 psycannons? Do I have to do the mathhammer for you on that? You, as purifiers, are actually going to do a much better job against them in CC, so I'm not sure where your thought process is coming from.

No...but my army will. Talking about individual units in a vacuum is silly. There's no way a 5-man unit of purifiers will beat a 5-man unit of paladins (though for almost the same price as the 5-man paladin unit, you can get 10-purifiers). I wouldn't even try. However, I look at it from the army's perspective and in that regards, my purifiers will outshoot a paladin army, especially when I have 20 S8 TL-autocannon shots that will insta-gib those pallies.

Bwahaha. Point of fact, I was talking about 10 purifiers vs 5 paladins, I am nothing if not fair. But seriously, you're bringing 5 psyflemen? Ok, nvm, you don't have a purifier army, you have a psyflemen army.

Do you know how many paladins your 20 TL Str 8 shots will "insta-gib"? Two. 20*(8/9)*(5/6)*(1/6)= 2.47 Yayyyyyy.

Look, they're great for killing rhinos, but they're not there to be your anti-infantry, certainly not your anti-terminator.

You've been intellectually lazy in your list building, and perhaps listened to the internet a bit too much. Yes, you have picked two units that are good against a very commonly seen enemy -- MEQ razorspam -- and built an army around it. Great. I'm sure that's very easy to use, and it's reassuring that it needs no finesse from you. But it's not efficient, and no, it's not balanced. It's like your a real world army, and you said "High Explosive missles hurt everything, I'm just going to use HE for everything". Well, except there's a reason they use HEAP, and frags, and fuel-air explosives.

I'd have a good old laugh if you faced any of a variety of (dark)eldar lists, or an Ork Battle wagon list, or LRs, or a well run DOA blood angels list with proper meltas, hell even a vanilla good melta bike list.

And for the record, for the last time, it's not like I'd only be fighting you with paladins, either. Because a list built on just 1 or 2 types of unit is weak.

Purifiers have all the tools you need for any enemy.

they can shoot assaulty armies with their psycannons and psybolt stormbolters.

they can assault shooty armies with their I6 halberds.



your Paladins have at best a 4+ invuln, 1 might have a 2+. you have wound allocation, but the Purifiers can activate their force weapons to make that work against you. with a mixture of 4+ and 5+ invulns, your paladins don't have a great chance at surviving. naturally, this isn't optimal for Purifiers, but this is one army and one situation.


Crowe Purifier lists are most certaintly a competitive option for the Gk codex. you may not think so, but you will find that most other people will strongly disagree and there is alot of evidence to back up Purifier's competitiveness.

I was thinking of starting a Mordrak list for fun and for the painting side of it. here's my list:

1750 points:

Grand master mordrak
4 ghost knights
halberds

Librarian
Level 3
3 Servo Skulls
Warding staff
Sanctuary
Shrouding
Summoning
Quicksilver
Teleporter Homer
Might of Titan

Terminator squad
1 mc hammer
4 halberds
1 psycannon

Terminator squad
1 mc hammer
4 halberds
1 psycannon

interceptor squad
4 halberds
1 mc hammer

interceptor squad
4 halberds
1 mc hammer

interceptor squad
4 halberds
1 mc hammer

Vindicare Assassin

so what do you guys think?

O_O Lots of halberds to start off.....

Grey Templar wrote:Purifiers have all the tools you need for any enemy.

they can shoot assaulty armies with their psycannons and psybolt stormbolters.

they can assault shooty armies with their I6 halberds.

Oh, they do indeed have all the tools they need. So do SM honor guard. That doesn't mean you should make an army out of honor guard, and it's the same with purifiers. It's cost/efficiency question. A few purifiers are great, an army of them is simply wasteful. An army of GKSS will beat an army of Purifiers. A few purifiers units in with a larger force of GKSS would beat either.

your Paladins have at best a 4+ invuln, 1 might have a 2+. you have wound allocation, but the Purifiers can activate their force weapons to make that work against you. with a mixture of 4+ and 5+ invulns, your paladins don't have a great chance at surviving. naturally, this isn't optimal for Purifiers, but this is one army and one situation.

First of all not really looking to argue paladins vs purifiers, since I'm not about making an army out of either. Second, jy2 had said his purifiers would outshoot paladins, and I told him that was complete bunk, he'd fare much better in CC. You didn't just put words in my mouth, you almost flipped what I'd said, by agreeing with me.

Crowe Purifier lists are most certaintly a competitive option for the Gk codex. you may not think so, but you will find that most other people will strongly disagree and there is alot of evidence to back up Purifier's competitiveness.

Point of fact, they are not. They're certainly not competitive against me, since I've been beating purifier lists all summer. (4 tournaments, one of them a GT) Just because lots of people take them doesn't make them good, in this case it means it's a simple list that's easy to organize and is fairly idiot proof. They do, as you said, "have all the tools". But there is a big difference between that and being efficient, and in fact, it usually means the opposite.

If one unit, that could perform all roles, wasn't somewhat overcosted in pts versus units that specialized more, then GW would be even worse at balance and list design than we gave them credit for, yeah?

Crowe/purifier/psyfleman lists are by far the most common build out there. It's easy and hard to fail with completely, but it's sub-optimal. It is also not what you see in the top tier competitive lists, the guys who are actually winning those big tourneys, rather than just entering them. Skipping over the henchmen spam lists, there are a variety of interesting builds and combinations that are quite competitive. Many of them do involve psyflemen, either a few or spammed, some use storm ravens, some use GKT, or paladins, or Draigo, and Solodins, most have at least some purifiers, almost all have GKSS. None have Crowe.

So you can use a nice easy, doesn't stress your brain to either plan or use purifier and psyfleman list, and that will probably do OK against most people. But most people in 40k are not good, are not competitive. But you're reading a tactics forum, and talking about spam lists, so I assume you want to be competitve, so you're going to have to put on your big boy pants and find a plan, find some synergies, and work out a lot of complicated "what-ifs".

There are a lot of Great and varied, viable, competitive builds out there for GK, it's in that respect one of the best codices to date. Find them, rather than relying on the crutch you've found with Crowe and mass purifiers.





Oh, and read my blog: Prometheusatwar.com

...there are a variety of interesting builds and combinations that are quite competitive.... There are a lot of Great and varied, viable, competitive builds out there for GK, it's in that respect one of the best codices to date. Find them, rather than relying on the crutch you've found with Crowe and mass purifiers....

Hello

In my last game of 40K I was obliterated by a Crowe GK list. Can you please link some of these competitive lists that you are refering to!? I would be very interested to see how people are building and winning with their GK armies!

Grey Therion wrote:

...there are a variety of interesting builds and combinations that are quite competitive.... There are a lot of Great and varied, viable, competitive builds out there for GK, it's in that respect one of the best codices to date. Find them, rather than relying on the crutch you've found with Crowe and mass purifiers....

Hello

In my last game of 40K I was obliterated by a Crowe GK list. Can you please link some of these competitive lists that you are refering to!? I would be very interested to see how people are building and winning with their GK armies!

1850: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/

2500: http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/08/i-came-in-2nd-in-the-40k-ard-boyz/

Well, these are mine.

If you want a more "generic" plan (mine are a little eccentric, most people aren't used to using LRs) I would suggest some format like this:

HQ: Pick one,

Librarian, with shrouding, santuary, Might and one outher power you find interesting. No other upgrades.

A Grand master with all the grenades, mastercrafted sword, digital weapons.

Xenos Inquistor with grenades, power weapon. May or may not find it worth it to make him psychic with hammerhand.

Any of these options you may want to give them servo-skulls if you know how to use them.

Troops:

Various numbers of GKSS, full 10 men, psybolts, 2x psycannons. May or may not want to give justicar a hammer. At least a couple guys in the army need hammers. Mount in rhino.

May want to use some GKT. Keep NFW ratio 2 halberds, 2 swords, 1 hammer, give a psycannon for ever 5. GKT is a good place to put GMs or libbys. May want to get LR to go with. Pick redeemer or LRC. always give it psybolts.

Elites:

Take one or two units of purifiers. unlike GKSS, purifiers can work in small squads. Only take 1 psycannon per 5 men, no psybolts unless getting a 10 man squad. small sqauds work well in razorbacks, best to just have heavy bolters with psybotls on razorback

If you took a Inq, consider makeing a henchmensquad. Those can have so many variations it's too much to go into.

Fast:

Take a little bit of fast stuff, to play games with the enemy, keep him off balance. Interceptors, stormraven, or a Deathknight with the teleporter. Be careful with the interceptors in small squads, they're expensive and wil die quick. Interceptors should be armed like GKSS, but always give them a hammer, and don't give them psybolts unless you're taking 10. Stormravens need something to deliver (GKT, purifers, and/or an assaulty dread) and should have a multi-melta and lascannon, nothing else. I don't have many opinions how to arm Dreadknights, haven't really used them, but I think any of the melee options have their benefits, and I think I'm leaning away from giving them any guns. Yes, I'm aware they're actually a heavy choice.

Heavy:

I already covered DK and LRs.

Take some Dreadnoughts. They can be regular or Venerable. Some should be psyflemen (dual TL autocannons with psybolts) but they don't all need to be. Psycannon and DCCW dread works great, especially as venerables.





Well, there's my general framework of a viable GK list. Play around with it, try it out, see what works for you, and in what ratios and combinations. It is, unfortunately, possible to make both bad and great lists using that above frame work, but I hope it helps.

So to be clear, you're saying that a list along the lines of

Crowe
5 units of 5 purifiers in rhinos or razorbacks
a 5 man strike squad
2 venerable dreadnoughts
3 dreadnoughts

isn't in fact a 'purifier' army and so it's not what you're talking about when you are saying a purifier build is weak?

Artemo wrote:So to be clear, you're saying that a list along the lines of

Crowe
5 units of 5 purifiers in rhinos or razorbacks
a 5 man strike squad
2 venerable dreadnoughts
3 dreadnoughts

isn't in fact a 'purifier' army and so it's not what you're talking about when you are saying a purifier build is weak?

No, that's a purifier army, and yes it's weak.

You're not being clear, you're nitpicking. Obviously it's a sliding scale. I was making the point that 1 or 2 purifier units doesn't make it a purifier army, and works quite well. But 4 or 5 doesn't.

Prometheus, JY2, I think it's best you agree to disagree.

Ultimately, you've strayed off topic and neither of you are clearly going to concede your point; therefore there's no need to continue this argument. Again, just agree to disagree and leave it be.

I will say that I agree with JY2 in most cases, but the point remains you both have had (similar) success with different lists, both coming second in 'ard boyz prelims and racking up a tally of victories with your different builds. If anything, this similar success suggests that both your lists are equally strong, despite Prometheus arguing that a purifier heavy build is 'weak'.

IMHO, Prometheus SEEMS to be making a very 'it's my way or the highway' type argument, which isn't the case. Grey Knights are too new for decisions to be completely accurate and certain, but the point remains that there are a wide variety of competitive builds for Grey Knights; Paladin-'wing' lists(!), Purifier-'wing' lists(!), Hybrid armies (such as Prometheus'), Henchmen armies, shunt-punch, foot-slog armies etc. so to say that certain units/builds are outright weak is wrong, as is saying no competitive list can include Crowe etc.

You both have playtesting and maths to back up the success of your respective lists, further adding to the lack of concession in your opinions. but a wide variety of armies are competitive and available. Just because something is forgiving to use and easy to play as Promotheus suggests Purifiers are, does not mean that they are weakened by this; Space Wolves and Blood Angels are a testament to this.

Armies consisting of one or two purifier squads can work. As can armies consisting of 5 or 6 purifier squads. Same thing for Paladins.
JY2 has provided a great service to Dakka in his thoroughly excellent battle reports, as well as open-minded and helpful tactical advice, where he admits that a wide variety of armies and units are competitive.

Again, neither of you are going to concede the point, this is less and less relevant to the topic of GK named characters, the argument is going no-where and ultimately, you would simply be wasting time and effort as your comments are in vain. Again, I'd recommend that you both just agree to disagree.

Castellan Crowe: The New Autocannon Debate.

L. Wrex

I've already given up on debating this with Sir_Prometheus. Talking to him is like whistling in the wind. He is just too firmly entrenched in his ideals/beliefs to simply give any other views a chance/consideration. This may be due to his own personal experiences where he probably does well in his local meta, I don't know. The only thing that may open his eyes to other possibilities is experience against a decent Crowe-purifier general...and still, even that may not be enough depending on how stubborn he chooses to be.

Anyways, we've already dragged this way off topic. I will follow Just Dave's advice and say I just agree to disagree and good luck at the Semi-finals to Sir_Prometheus. Though we both have have differing viewpoints, we are both representing the GK's (at least I'm assuming you're going to the Semi's with your GK's) at the tourney. Now I'm not sure what your expections are there, but me, I'm expecting to take my Crowe-purifier-dread GK's to the Finals.

I suppose I might see you there. I'm looking over your ard boys battle reports, and will have a response for you.

How many people were at your ard boyz? Doesn't look to be that many.

But seriously, you're bringing 5 psyflemen? Ok, nvm, you don't have a purifier army, you have a psyflemen army.

Is what you said in reply to another poster which is why I asked the 'nitpicking' question as to whether the list I mentioned above was what you would have called a Purifier list.

Now we're agreed that it is, I don't really understand why you think it's especially weak.