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If im not mistaken...the cauldron of blood is a warmachine, and therefore may not charge into combat?

Cauldron of Blood rules are detailed in the Dark Elves FAQ. It is indeed a Warmachine and therefore cannot charge.

Huh seems pretty expensive then. You are looking at 200+ pts to get some minor buffs, and thats almost the cost of a level 3.

Question wrote:Huh seems pretty expensive then. You are looking at 200+ pts to get some minor buffs, and thats almost the cost of a level 3.

It's 225.
Because you want to have a T10 BSB who is Stubborn 9 with a re-roll, and a 4+ ward.
The bonuses are nice, but the unkillable BSB is the best part.

-Matt

Uh i can already have a master BSB for far cheaper with a re-rollable 1+ save, and i can actually use his +1 CR.

Also since its a warmachine it instantly dies to pit of shades/purple sun/dwellers with no saves of any kind allowed...

I guess all the successful DE players who run them (essentially every GT list) are wrong then.

The Cauldrons buffs are very useful - 5+ ward on squishy elves? Yes please

You are spending 225 pts for a single 5+ ward...and its only really effective if you run some kind of deathstar.

And the cauldron can still one shotted pretty reliably on first turn with pit of shades/purple sun/dwellers/etc.

Not really. Especially when you consider things like Empire Mortars.

But regardless, the one thing to worry about is KB, obviously. If you run the unkillable Peg Master (Or is it a Lord?) he's great for supporting charge.

Well my point is that if you give a unit the 5+ ward, he can simply opt to shoot another unit. So its only effective is he cant ignore that unit for some reason (Death star, its the only thing in combat, etc).

The cauldron is amazing. I wish the anvil could buff with 100% reliability like that thing can. The points you're paying seem high if you think of it as "one unit gets a 5+ ward". But you should be thinking of it as "one unit of my choice gets a 5+ ward/killing blow/extra attack".

It's the flexibility that makes the model. I can send a heavily armored unit into spearmen or corsairs... unless they have killing blow. I can maybe blow through 15 Black Guard in a turn with the right unit and avoid a counter charge... unless they have a 5+ ward.

Add a dash of shadow magic, and things get gross.

Okkams+extra attack.
Nuff said.

Question wrote:You are spending 225 pts for a single 5+ ward...and its only really effective if you run some kind of deathstar.

And the cauldron can still one shotted pretty reliably on first turn with pit of shades/purple sun/dwellers/etc.

Purple Sun and Pit do almost nothing to the rest of a Dark Elf army, being all init 5 or better.
Dwellers does 1 shot the BSB, but it one shots many BSB's, along with a lot of the unit a normal BSB is in.
If your worried about the lore of death, take a look at what those other spells will do to your Master BSB. 1+ re-rollable doesn't do anything at all against any spell in the lore of death.
4+ Ward with MR1 does stop quite a bit.
4 Wounds are better than 2.

-Matt

HoverBoy wrote:Okkams+extra attack.
Nuff said.

QFT

Especially with a Dark Elf Spearhorde. You're looking at 40-41 attacks at Strength 8-9 (I forget DE Leadership) from basic core troops.

Nasty business.

I've used the Cauldron BSB. I've used the Cauldron with a Master BSB. I've used the Cauldron with a Hag BSB. All work fine, it just depends on the nature of the list. Case in point: 10 COK get a lot of extra punch with the extra attack blessing... and becomes really nasty with a Hydra Banner BSB. 40 Executioners with an extra attack and a ASF BSB Hag will mangle pretty much everything except High Elves the first round.

But if I'm not taking one of those specific builds, then the Cauldron BSB is very, very point efficient and quite effective.


As far as the Cauldron being kind of weak and ineffective... Bull.

5+ ward save saves literally a third of all models in the unit I would have lost. Given that the DE have only one unit (the aformentioned COK) that has an Armor save better than 5+, that's enormous.

Extra attacks are simply awesome against most stuff. Witches especially can tear lightly-armored stuff up with loads of poison attacks.

And for the really tough suff DE tend to struggle with... Killing Blow evens the odds.


I'll grant you, an opponent can choose not to fire on the unit I just gave the ward save. I consider that a victory; that way the unit I wanted to protect takes no wounds. If I hadn't wanted to protect it, I wouldn't have warded it, and now you've spared it entirely!

In the end you are spending 200+ pts on a large unit that has a 100% chance of failing a strength or init save or die...

And with large 5 wide infantry tarpit blocks, +1 attack isnt that impressive anymore. A 7 wide witch elf block is only going to have +7 attacks from that and hes still going to tarpit you with steadfast.

I can see how the cauldron can be useful but i think its kind of overpriced for what it does.

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I think you're not looking at the full potential. Sure +7 attacks doesn't look great, but with hatred, poison, and high initiative, that's actually kind of nifty in the right situations. Like I said before, it's all about applying that bonus to the unit of your choice in the right situation. Flexibility is the coolest thing about that model.

Question wrote:In the end you are spending 200+ pts on a large unit that has a 100% chance of failing a strength or init save or die...

And with large 5 wide infantry tarpit blocks, +1 attack isnt that impressive anymore. A 7 wide witch elf block is only going to have +7 attacks from that and hes still going to tarpit you with steadfast.

I can see how the cauldron can be useful but i think its kind of overpriced for what it does.

7 wide witch elves love tarpits. 28 to 35 poison attacks (base) tears gak up. At that point, I'd give witch elves the 5+ ward and let them grind it out. Especially considering that they may be getting a stubborn bonus for free; just for being near the cauldron.
Or give the bonus to a unit that needs it more.
The cauldron lets you pick a fight that's likely to be close, and swing it in your favor. And that's any fight within 24".

I'd take a look at the upper tables in a GT. You'll see that the dark elves with winning records seem to favor the shrine.
-Matt

This has devolved into more of a strategy discussion than rules. Question has been answered. Lock?

Question - apparently you cant be convinced of the use, so dont bother running one. It'll help others.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Question - apparently you cant be convinced of the use, so dont bother running one. It'll help others.

>Don't address any of the points raised
>Claim you are right

I think we have addressed them, though...

It has certain vulnerabilities, but they are specific and not available to everyone. As a Dwarf player, I find the thing a pain to take out. Even direct cannon or upgraded stone thrower hits only have about a 1 in 8 chance of a one shot kill. A lot of the small units that go after other war machines will struggle to not get diced by the witch crew.

So yes, dwellers, pit, sun will instant kill it, but in an all-comers list, I just about consider the thing a 1+.

Question wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Question - apparently you cant be convinced of the use, so dont bother running one. It'll help others.

>Don't address any of the points raised
>Claim you are right

1) THe points raised were all answered. You not thinking theyre valuable doesnt disprove that.
2) Stating it, actually, based on experience of using and having it used against AND from looking atand knowing widescale, alrge tournament results.

That is a good basis for claiming to be correct. Your position is one based on ignorance, as you yourself have admitted. That is a less secure position

Well dwarves have no magic at all so thats a special case...rangers or miners might be able to do it though.

I won't argue that certain spells can instakill it. That's what dispel dice are for.

If IF goes off... well, that's life. At least he's not blowing up a big block of infantry, and there's a chance he'll blow himself up too.

In most cases, the Cauldron is a very very nice boost to have, but loosing it isn't going to wreck my army totally.

Not to mention that it is a large target, thus has an 18 inch reroll bubble, and most of these spells have a range of 24 inches. Not sure about you, but most of my blocks are about 6 inches back or across, and even then if your mage is that close, chances are its in combat and won't be casting these spells.

Kura wrote:Not to mention that it is a large target, thus has an 18 inch reroll bubble, and most of these spells have a range of 24 inches. Not sure about you, but most of my blocks are about 6 inches back or across, and even then if your mage is that close, chances are its in combat and won't be casting these spells.

It's not a large target. The "Special Rules" in the Errata do not include it.

Futhermore, I think the 18" boost for large targets only applies to Inspiring Presence, not Hold Your Ground, though I could be wrong about that.

Red_Zeke wrote:Futhermore, I think the 18" boost for large targets only applies to Inspiring Presence, not Hold Your Ground, though I could be wrong about that.

Its's to both specificaly mentioned in the large target rules, altho inspiring pressence has it repeated in it's own section aswell.

Question wrote:Well my point is that if you give a unit the 5+ ward, he can simply opt to shoot another unit. So its only effective is he cant ignore that unit for some reason (Death star, its the only thing in combat, etc).

You are under the impression that if you don't use an ability because your opponent is avoiding it that you are losing.

this is false.

The 5+ ward has actually been 100% more effective then it would have been if he shot at you. None of the models you buffed will die as opposed to 2/3 of them.

of course, this does vary. if you buffed your Spearmen because they might get shot by a mortar, but the morter shot your Black Guard instead you might have a problem. in which case you should have buffed the Blackguard to make the cheaper spearmen a more attractive target.

its all about proper application of your buff. if your opponent won't shoot the 5+ ward save unit, then exploit this. buff the unit you don't want him to shoot.

Grey Templar wrote:

Question wrote:Well my point is that if you give a unit the 5+ ward, he can simply opt to shoot another unit. So its only effective is he cant ignore that unit for some reason (Death star, its the only thing in combat, etc).

You are under the impression that if you don't use an ability because your opponent is avoiding it that you are losing.

this is false.

The 5+ ward has actually been 100% more effective then it would have been if he shot at you. None of the models you buffed will die as opposed to 2/3 of them.

of course, this does vary. if you buffed your Spearmen because they might get shot by a mortar, but the morter shot your Black Guard instead you might have a problem. in which case you should have buffed the Blackguard to make the cheaper spearmen a more attractive target.

its all about proper application of your buff. if your opponent won't shoot the 5+ ward save unit, then exploit this. buff the unit you don't want him to shoot.

Just plan for it.
When facing a gunline, I take my block of 35 spearmen, and deploy 1 wide. I put the stubborn unkillable dreadlord in it, and give them the 5+ ward.
Now you choose between 5+ armor/5+ ward, or the rest of my army, which is -2 to be hit, because they are behind the 28" wide line of spearmen.
It very effectively reducing the shooting power of a gunline, without having to specifically redesign the army list.


-Matt