Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, this is a question that got me thinking, "If you want a space marine army, why not just take Blood angels?" It happened in my FLGS, and the discussion brought up several points, like the pricing of GK, and SW, the BA vehicles and more. So right now the only reasons to take vanilla marines as I can tell are, armies based around special characters, loyalty to your codex, or just bought AOBR and only have the rules for the space marines included. So the discussion I hope to start is this, what changes can be made for the next space marine codex to make them a top choice again. I think they should get some point discounts, the same as a space wolf maybe, and give them an assault weapon for every 5 guys. What say you old wise dakkanights.

Give Devastators the split fire rule from the Longfangs.

I would say make then cheaper then longfangs, but no split fire, otherwise we run the risk of just taking what we like from other marine books and losing any distinction between them.

Reduce the costs of units significantly. BA get cheap Assault Marines. Give C:SM cheap Tactical Marines. Tactical Marines worth taking by giving them an upgrade at 1-3 pts per model "Bolter Mastery", so they gain the Relentless special rule for any model in the squad armed with a Bolter or Heavy Bolter.

The best thing to do? Stop making every marine variant "Marines +1". Make them *different*, not *better*.

Honestly, Marine units don't need to be cheaper, they don't need more extensive sets of special rules. Their biggest problem is that GW thinks "Different Marines" must equal "Better Marines".


As is, that's honestly their biggest issue. Making heavy weapons units cheaper and cheaper will simply result in spam. Long Fangs are very poorly balanced, the mistake should not be repeated.

If they re-do black templars id like to see a lot of power swords and storm shields in power armour.

Vaktathi wrote:The best thing to do? Stop making every marine variant "Marines +1". Make them *different*, not *better*.

Honestly, Marine units don't need to be cheaper, they don't need more extensive sets of special rules. Their biggest problem is that GW thinks "Different Marines" must equal "Better Marines".


As is, that's honestly their biggest issue. Making heavy weapons units cheaper and cheaper will simply result in spam. Long Fangs are very poorly balanced, the mistake should not be repeated.

Give this man a medal. All valid points. Black Templars are the best example of a sidegrade compared to the 4th ed Marine codex, while eclipsed somewhat with the 5th ed Marine codex.

I would say leave codex nilla marines is a well written codex its just all the other marines codexs that make it look bad.

Give Dreadnoughts 2 close combat weapons, add more flavorsome characters. Apart from that its pretty fine the way it is.

Give me back my MSU shooting marines.

I second the request for MSU shooty.

Proper customisation and not just "captains with different gear" or "refluff a special character".

Bring back 4th's chapter creation rules. Damn you GW for taking out customization in favor of special characters.

Toastedandy wrote:Give Dreadnoughts 2 close combat weapons, add more flavorsome characters. Apart from that its pretty fine the way it is.

You don't play Vanilla Marines, do you?

Alkasyn wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:Give Dreadnoughts 2 close combat weapons, add more flavorsome characters. Apart from that its pretty fine the way it is.

You don't play Vanilla Marines, do you?

Perhaps like Black Templars they only have access to half the stuff vanilla marines does and yes they can't even take 2 close combat arms well now they can with contemptor....

Toastedandy wrote:Give Dreadnoughts 2 close combat weapons, add more flavorsome characters. Apart from that its pretty fine the way it is.

These are called "furioso" dreadnoughts and they dont, and never will, belong in the vanilla dex

Why? They should allow all patterns including mortis.

They should go back to the trait system like in the 4th edition codex they were better back then >.>

terranarc wrote:Why? They should allow all patterns including mortis.

You're right. They should also ride giant thundersquirrels.

AustonT wrote:

terranarc wrote:Why? They should allow all patterns including mortis.

You're right. They should also ride giant thundersquirrels.

What a great counterpoint!

I agree with bringing back the traits system so that you can have salamanders or whatever without the big cheese being present. If the trait system had problems then fix it rather than ditch it. It made SM much more flavourful in my opinion.

There are too many marine books. Loyalists only really need one book with some kind of trait system as others have said above, or special characters that 'unlock' or modify unit selection and/or force orgs. Chaos marines could do with two books, one for the legions, and one for renegades/undivided.

It'd be a big codex, but then again, C:SM is 150 pages, easily double a number of other codexes.

I can only dream...

I've always liked the whole Chapter Tactics thing that a lot of the special characters give. If regular captains/masters could take tactics from any chapter, and get a wonky rule (twin link weapon group A, unit type x gets scoring, pick a squad or two and it gets (insert USR here). Would lead to a lot of really cool, competitive, thematic armies. Also, I agree that devistators are god aweful expensive. A full 10 man squad w/ lascannons costs as much as a land raider, but cant do what a land raider does. There are myriad ways to fix this issue, but I CBA to think of any.

Aye, one great balanced marine book with traits that alter units and FOC as opposed to like 5 books.
GW should hire you. Then send matt ward to north korean labor camp.

terranarc wrote:.... Then send matt ward to north korean labor camp.

North - not fun, has to fill barrels with sand, then top it off with a few sprinklings of grain

South - has to play starcraft all day with people saying spehs mureenz are dumb, and would be totally owned by Terran Marines

Personally, I like the way they work already. I liked how Marines worked in 4th edition too, and I fear that any change could be for the worse. SRM and Vaktathi have it right.

Jimsolo wrote:Personally, I like the way they work already. I liked how Marines worked in 4th edition too, and I fear that any change could be for the worse. SRM and Vaktathi have it right.

They definitely see it the right way, and I agree, but to me it just reeks of a band-aid solution. Take Dark Angels for example, they could have VERY easily been incorporated into C:SM with two special characters (Belial and Sammael) which make terminators and bike squadrons plus landspeeders score when taken in the right combinations. Other than that, DA are pretty stock marines with very little in the way of army wide special rules.

Then again, more marine armies sell more, or at least that appears to be their philosophy. I imagine going from six (seven with GK) marine codices to three or even two if chaos all goes in one would give GW chair members seizures.

Cause more codices are better, right?

So, after thinking of the various places one could send matt ward to, these ideas popped into my head, and continued to pop as I typed...
Vanilla chapter tactics:

Any captain/chapter master/librarian/chaplain may replace combat tactics with the following (max 3 or so):

Twin-Link weapon group...*Bolt [2] *Flame [5pts] *[Melta [10pts] *Plasma [10pts] *Infantry Heavy [10pts]

All Infantry/Jump infantry benefit from...*Stubborn [5pts] *Fearless [15pts] *Stealth [15pts] *Tank Hunters [10pts] *Furious Charge [15pts] *Move through cover [10pts] *Relentless [20pts] *Feel no pain, 4+[20pts], 5+[15pts], 6+[10pts]

A single unit type gains... *A USR, at a 5pt discount form above *Counts as scoring [10pts] *FOC change move/addition [15pts]

Tactical/Assault/Devistator squads may replace their sergeant with... *Apothocary [5pts], *Terminator/Sergeant [15/20pts], *Librarian w/ 1 power [20pts], Chaplain [20pts]

Rhino hulls gain... *Fast [15] *+1 Front/Side/Rear/All facing [5/10/10/20], *Twin-Linked Weapons [15pts],

Land Raider hulls gain... *Fast [20], *New weapon sponson [uuh...] *Blessed Hull/Ceramite Plating/both [30/30/100]

Dreadnoughts get.... *Fleet [20], *Blessed Hull/Ceramite Plating/both [30/30/60]

... ... ... Thats all I can think of for now. Points were made willy-nilly, and likely have no reflection as to what they should actually be. Feel free to tell me I'm a dunce, and to go sit in the corner.

I wouldn't even fathom trying to set out point costs for army wide USRs, short of doing a mind-boggling amount of testing and fiddling. Not to mention an extensive amount of simple mathhammer, calculating averages and what-not.

Also, Land Raider should NEVER be able to acquire the fast rule. EVER. That's a really scary thought...

The idea is there though, but the implementation would need to be simple and elegant, yet provide the degree of customization we all want. It'd take a lot of work, that's for sure.

Change the stats for different Chapters. For instancw, since sw are more cc oriented, give them one less bs and one more ws. Also, take away certain units from the various chapters and only keep those units for vanilla marines, so that the ultramarines at least have more units.

Blacksails wrote:I wouldn't even fathom trying to set out point costs for army wide USRs, short of doing a mind-boggling amount of testing and fiddling. Not to mention an extensive amount of simple mathhammer, calculating averages and what-not.

Also, Land Raider should NEVER be able to acquire the fast rule. EVER. That's a really scary thought...

The idea is there though, but the implementation would need to be simple and elegant, yet provide the degree of customization we all want. It'd take a lot of work, that's for sure.

What, do you not like the idea of LRC zooming 18" turn one, then vomiting out a squad of TH/SS termies w/ lysander? all with furious charge/FNP?? whats not to like??? ... ... i see your point