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I know you could just ansawr X, but whats the general power level assumed from black Library novels, RPGs, other background etc.

Are they just really charismatic individuals who inspire others (like that one in the Horus Heresy series), or could they headbut a chaos daemon prince and possibly win (Soulstorm)?

I actually don't know, I was skimming through Lexicanum to look for something concrete on their power and found nothing. I've heard people say they can beat Greater Daemons, but I've never seen something that shows that.

They're just charasmatic. A Living Saint is a SoB who died, then somehow came back to life. No strengthening there.

Living Saint in Atlas Infernal. She's quite literally immortal, body blasted apart by bolter fire from a Death Watch squad, re-knitted itself in a few moments

Aye, the artist who did Sabbat certainly gives that impression. God I love how OTT 40k is. Of course no reason Emperor can't bless somebody with more subtle powers ie flight of the einstein and Garro being prodded into leaving the legion by that saints 'link'.


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Azure wrote:Living Saint in Atlas Infernal. She's quite literally immortal, body blasted apart by bolter fire from a Death Watch squad, re-knitted itself in a few moments

Wait, why were death watch trying to kill a living saint!? Wow, black library really like making sisters of battle fight other Imperial armies.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Aye, the artist who did Sabbat certainly gives that impression. God I love how OTT 40k is. Of course no reason Emperor can't bless somebody with more subtle powers ie flight of the einstein and Garro being prodded into leaving the legion by that saints 'link'.


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Azure wrote:Living Saint in Atlas Infernal. She's quite literally immortal, body blasted apart by bolter fire from a Death Watch squad, re-knitted itself in a few moments

Wait, why were death watch trying to kill a living saint!? Wow, black library really like making sisters of battle fight other Imperial armies.

The only solid info I can get is from the Witch Hunters Codex, which only really presents one Saint, Celestine. She is not really described doing much apart from inspiring alot of people by Killing a lot of heretics at a certain battle, then being all but dead at the end of the battle and making a miraculous recovery that saw her ascended to sainthood. Once there she just inspired people while crusading and died to a nuclear blast. Apart from that she is around 200 pts flat (I know game does not strictly translate to fluff but it can help, especially with special characters) she appears to only have possibility of being a pain to kill. A greater demon would tear through her like paper.

Whoah there. Celestine is like a "Greater Daemon" of the Imperium. Easily. Where do people get the idea she's "just" some charismatic leader from? A look at her wargear alone should suffice to point out the differences.

But here's something from the new WD minidex:

980.M41 - "The Order of the Ebon Chalice reinforces Space Marines of the Salamanders Chapter who are engaged in a brutal urban war against the dread Black Legion on the world of Heletine. The enemy is put to the torch as dozens of Immolators and Land Raider Redeemers burn a path through the war-torn cities. Despite the strength of their forces, the advance is halted when Lord Gralastyx - the Daemon Prince leading the Chaos forces - unleashes a legion of possessed Chaos Space Marines. As the frenzied Chaos horde rips through the Imperial ranks, Battle Sisters and Space Marines fight back to back, their bolters and flamers blazing away as every warrior endeavours to sell their life dearly. However, the allied forces are saved when Saint Celestine appears, falling upon the Chaos horde like an avenging angel. The Living Saint carves a path through the horde towards Lord Gralastyx before plunging her blade through his heart. With the death of the Daemon Prince, the Chaos horde is destroyed, but of Celestine there is no sign, for she vanished as mysteriously as she appeared."

Now, it's worth pointing out that Celestine is just one kind of Living Saint - a terrible holy warrior who once achieved ascension by redeeming herself as a Repentia, rising from the dead after having slain numerous foes with her eviscerator before succumbing to the heretics' numbers. There will be others less martially inclined, whose powers and combat capabilities will be different. For example, it could be argued that Sebastian Thor was a Living Saint as well, yet he never really fought in a battle himself, instead causing benevolent miracles throughout his journey towards Vandirian Terra that made people flock to his holy cause.

Well her T is 3... and her modified Str is only 5... She is hard to kill (as i said) due to her special rule and armor saves but I cant see her really messing up a greater demon... even if she activated an act of faith...

by contrast a greater demon has a minimum T of 6 and a minimum Str of 6 as well.
They all have equal or waaay better WS, Attacks, Wounds, Initiative and their own healthy invulnerable saves and special rules.
But the Lord of Change and Bloodthirster are more points than her and the keeper of secrets is 1 pt less, dont confer the additional faith benefits or fearlessness upon a squad as well as being able to hit and run with seraphim and having her special rule to keep her coming back for more.

So as per the rules, which I included the disclaimer for going off of rules in my first post, she is not the equal of a run of the mill greater demon in pitched combat, but does have her own area of expertise in benefiting other Sisters of Battle and staying alive. Her lore as per the Witch hunter codex does not appear to contradict this. Is she referenced elsewhere?

As to different types of Saints, undoubtedly you are on the money Lynata. I have very limited experience with them but you make great points and I have read the horus heresy series which, as you probably know, prominently features a proto saint that is simply not the equal of Celestine in martial matters, but has virtues of her own.

UrbanCowboy wrote:Well her T is 3... and her modified Str is only 5... She is hard to kill (as i said) due to her special rule and armor saves but I cant see her really messing up a greater demon... even if she activated an act of faith...

Hmm. Might be interesting to play that out a couple times just to see how they fare - I have little experience with the stats of Greater Daemons or how they are employed and was merely extrapolating from her equipment and saves as well as the fluff (which was, I believe, OP's question). "Cut through like butter" just sounded a bit unjustified, though it may be possible on the TT.

UrbanCowboy wrote:Her lore as per the Witch hunter codex does not appear to contradict this. Is she referenced elsewhere?

In studio material? Only the 5E WD Minidex which I quoted above.

That said, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are probably just as diverse in the fluff as Living Saints can be, or even more. Both Celestine as well as a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster are merely examples, at least this would be my interpretation. The description of this Lord Gralastyx which she did not seem to have a problem with dispatching is, as you can see, not very informative.

UrbanCowboy wrote:I have very limited experience with them but you make great points and I have read the horus heresy series which, as you probably know, prominently features a proto saint that is simply not the equal of Celestine in martial matters, but has virtues of her own.

Ah, my knowledge on Black Library material is very likely much smaller than yours. I was somewhat disappointed by how artistic license allows the writers to contradict each other or even have their interpretations deviate from the studio material, so I am following any developments on the novel front with much less enthusiasm than I devote to my continueing quest to assimilate any studio material related to my chosen points of interest.
It's not like I would not read BL novels at all, far from it, but many people here (probably including you) will have a far greater collection of books than I do.

Well as far as the rules go, (I only browsed the white dwarf), Celestine wounds on a 4+ so did gain a boost against monstrous creatures. But a lot of big daemons have 3+ inv saves and a high number of wounds whilst only needing to hit her once to instant kill.

If you could give an archon an agoniser, and a shadowfield you've got something just as good in cc; with a bit of luck on the inv save he can be better. (without all the goodies of coming back to life, jet pack, heavy flamer, etc for a cheap price).

If i remember my friends daemon army right, then daemon princes were also about a hundred points unupgraded; but greater daemons were easily 250pts+ for a comparison.

By the way, are people using the WD dex taking celestine by herself and joining other combats (battle conclave); or are people putting her in a squad of seraphim? Do Seraphim still get CC weapons with their dual pistols anymore? Usually with my archon/Lelith she only works if you put her in a big squad of wyches or incubi for ablative wounds. most of my armies I never have characters out unless I have to (Nid monsters) and that would leave celestine vulnerable to heavy weapons fire.

So, if they did a codex that was the real article, people would expect a balance between being a force multiplier for the army (faith) and being a close combat monster; since there are justifications for both in the background? Personally I'd prefer a bit more emphasis on the latter, but thats just my opinion.

Well, they can't survive a nuke to the head.
To be fair though, there isn't much, even in 40k, that can take that kind of punishment.

Living Saint is like Grater Daemon of Khorne, but fused with Powers of the Emperor. It is essentially a fallen Sister of battle that resurrected ( they said that the Emperor himself resurrect her, but there is no prof for that ) aldo she is "a manifestation of the Emperor's holly wrath" witch means that the energies comes directly from him.
They are tough, but there is very little in fluff about them battling.

Lynata wrote:Hmm. Might be interesting to play that out a couple times just to see how they fare - I have little experience with the stats of Greater Daemons or how they are employed and was merely extrapolating from her equipment and saves as well as the fluff (which was, I believe, OP's question). "Cut through like butter" just sounded a bit unjustified, though it may be possible on the TT.

Well, on the tabletop, Greater Daemons can Instant Death her, because she lacks Eternal Warrior. Most have S6, the Bloodthirster has S7. All also have a 4+ invulnerable like she does.

She basically has no chance to beat the Keeper of Secrets, or a very small one, it has higher I, higher WS, and it gets 7 attacks on a charge, 6 at base, so chances are the Keeper of Secrets is going to wound her at least once and will ID her.

She might have an easier time against the Bloodthirster, with its lower I, though once more it has higher WS. And Celestine's six attacks on a charge, if she gets it, probably won't deplete all four of its wounds.

The Great Unclean One is slower and actually has lower WS, but 5 wounds, though, she has a better chance against this one.

Now, she might actually be able to best the Lord of Change in CC, since it has only WS5, lower I, and only 3 attacks, so it might not be able to wound her, and Celestine gets enough attacks that she may be able to kill it before it can hit her once.

Just my opinion on a fight between them in CC in gameplay.

Lynata wrote:That said, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are probably just as diverse in the fluff as Living Saints can be, or even more.

Yep. An'ggrath for instance is far stronger than the average Bloodthirster, hell, the most powerful Lord of Change I know of can create Warp Storms under its own power. Daemon Princes also vary (Though tend to be a little weaker than Greater Daemons), the Daemon Primarchs being far stronger than the average Prince for instance.

But thanks for posting that, is the first instance of a Living Saint fighting anyone of note in the fluff I have seen.

has everyone forgotten about Necropololis? where the living saint kills several tanks and a BANEBLADE in CC, they are a tad nastier in the fluff than given credit for

Thank you for saying that, this helps us a LOT.

Formosa wrote:has everyone forgotten about Necropololis? where the living saint kills several tanks and a BANEBLADE in CC, they are a tad nastier in the fluff than given credit for

That wasn't Necropolis...

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Well, they can't survive a nuke to the head.
To be fair though, there isn't much, even in 40k, that can take that kind of punishment.

Vulkan


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Formosa wrote:has everyone forgotten about Necropololis? where the living saint kills several tanks and a BANEBLADE in CC, they are a tad nastier in the fluff than given credit for

Thanks, I knew that one of the Gaunts Ghost novels had Sabbat return, but its not Necropolis, as I've read up to that one, and somebody else kills a daemon prince; Iam sure you can guess who

It might be that since they're human sized and can join a squad; GW wouldn't give her the sort of stats where that would be possible. Imagine having a trygon in a brood of gaunts. Possible could just say the flaming sword can be used as either a power weapon or an eviserator ala Emperors Champion.

The problem with the daemon trying to beat Celestine isn't taking her down. It's that she keeps getting back up again! Let a game run long enough (i.e. ignore the turn limit), and she can eventually single-handedly wipe out anything and everything that you put on the table to oppose her...

How powerful should Living Saints be in fluff? Hard to say. They're essentially powered by Faith in some fashion, presumably at least partially their own (though we don't know for certain). As such, I would expect them to have access to some "Divine Intervention" levels of power. FFG's Blood of Martyrs sourcebook has some interesting ideas on what the faithful can do (and some of the later powers can be quite powerful, albeit tightly focused), but unfortunately little of that is apparent on the tabletop.

Another thing to consider is selection bias. Saint Celestine may be an appropriate representation of a living saint, in terms of relative power, but we are only going to hear about the times a saint kicked butt, not when she died.

The living saints all die eventually, and I doubt it usually takes a nuke or even a greater daemon to kill them. I'm sure they mostly die in more mundane ways on the battlefield, and that doesn't take away from their coolness. They conquer death and return to kick butt, miraculously mind you, not routinely, then die again and are remembered forever for their feats and their martyrdom.

So to get to the point, I think a saint killing a greater daemon in reality would be a miracle, just like it would on the tabletop. You can pull that off only if luck, and the Emperor, are with you.

Well, Celestine dying for real (to the nuke) was fact until the new WD 'dex established she can just come back anytime.

In the old fluff, she was a holy warrior that, after her ascension, accompanied the Imperial forces on a prolonged campaign until she was ended, never to be heard from again.

In the new version, she is an avenging angel that can just pop up anywhere and anytime out of nowhere, do some crazy and inspiring stuff, and then vanish just as quickly.

Fluffwise, I do think that real permanent death due to a mundane kill would take away from her coolness. This sort of fate is reserved for mortal forces like Guardsmen, Sisters or Marines. Then again, I am just as biased as anyone - I'm sure there's a large number of people who think it would be uncool if Marneus Calgar would die to a lasgun. It's a matter of perspective, and where one would see the underdog doing the kill as an awesome hero, fans of the "loser" would grumble.
Everyone wants his or her heroes to end in an epic way, be it in combat against another mighty creature or due to being hopelessly outnumbered. The question only is: who is the hero. And this is defined entirely by personal preferences.

So St. Celestine is now the SoB Sanguinor?

Some Living Saints are definately superhuman.



Are they just alpha+ level psykers or vessels of the Emperor's wrath? Who can say. They may be some of the most powerful human beings in existence though.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Some Living Saints are definately superhuman.

Are they just alpha+ level psykers or vessels of the Emperor's wrath? Who can say. They may be some of the most powerful human beings in existence though.

Iam assuming somebodies read Eisenhorn. That section at the parade was just I mean I never assumed a psyker could be THAT powerful.

I think there are ways of detecting if Acts of Faith (which can be done by non-psykers) and if living saints were just psykers it would be 'sensed' by Inq and others. Also it assumes an individual of that power level would be unaware of the nature of their abilities ie delusion or even insanity; albeit from the Imperiums perspective a positive thing given some of the alternatives. then their powers would have to manifest, by the action of such delusion as powers of faith, holy fire, divine light, inspiring faith in the faithful and being anathema to daemons. Its possible and 40k gives you enough leeway to make various interpretations but its too many ifs for my liking.

BTW: Would they ever put St Sabbat in a Sister codex? I mean they took out gaunt n last chancers from the Guard codex and seem averse to putting book characters into the game system. She's also very much the same as Celestine except being more epic in every single way, conquering a 1000 worlds and all.








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Coolyo294 wrote:So St. Celestine is now the SoB Sanguinor?

You mean the Sanguinor was the Blood Angels Saint Celstine surely.

I think you're thinking of Saint Macharius. Saint Sabbat only got 100-200 worlds. Lazy so and so.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think you're thinking of Saint Macharius. Saint Sabbat only got 100-200 worlds. Lazy so and so.

Really. My mistake, I was sure I heard that number in reference to the Crusade in Ghosts.

I'm not sure, just basing it on the fact the sabbat worlds is only 200 worlds.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure, just basing it on the fact the sabbat worlds is only 200 worlds.

Fair enough. I've only read the first three books and the first two was a couple of years ago. Aren't their like 15 of them by now.

The Inquisition, and other Imperial bodies, make use of tools called "psi-trackers" to, you guessed it, track psykers. That said... there are no psykers in the Sisterhood. None. The Sororitas consider psykers to be witches, and woe betide any woman who finds herself expressing psychic ability while in the Sisterhood.

The odds of a Living Saint being "just a psyker" are remotely slim.

They are basically the "good" version of daemons in power-level.