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Yes my idea was that I could put plagues in a rhino with a havoc launcher. The rhino has a firepoint, therefore they can fire a heavy weapon out of that. Then I can fire the havoc too. Do this in a similar way to razorspam.

Pros; Transport capacity of ten, havoc launchers cause more damage than TL heavy bolters, each razor has a havoc AND a heavy weapon from the marine inside, DPs, obliterators.

Cons; All the cons of razorspam, cost more than razorspam and anything else you can point out.

Am I on to something or am I an idiot?

Plague marines cannot have a heavy weapon, and a full squad of chaos marines with a heavy weapon costs a lot of points in a havoc rhino, kind of missing the point of "razorspam" which is cheap scoring units with effective heavy weaponry.

Also, the havoc launcher *can* cause more damage than TL heavy bolters, but will not all the time. Against a raider, for example, the havoc launcher can only get one hit, while the HBs can get 3.

Well, Plague Marines in Rhinos with havoc launchers is an option. If you compare it to razorspam, then consider small squads of PM with 2 special weapons each.

I'm pretty new to CSM, so what exactly is "razorspam"? A link would be enough for me

Concerning plague marines in a rhino, I have tried to following to some success: putting a few plague marines in a cheap rhino, give them 2 plasma guns. They can fire those 2 plasma guns and if it gets hot they have save+FNP. Works pretty fine for objectives since the opponent has to open the can and then remove the plague marines. Still willydstyle is right, it's not exactly cheap and cannot be spammed.

Well, the notion razorspam appears in conjunction with SW and BA armies. Here the troop section is filled with several Razorback squads (small units of Grey Hunters or Assault Marines w/ special weapon mounted in a Razorback).

Yes good point, I should replace the plagues with nillas.

Cost was an issue, you could get a unit of five nilla chaos marines with a lascannon or autocannon.

I thought that, as rhinos have firepoints, that vehicles would not be an issue. As the marines inside can have lascannons and autocannons.


I got ninjad by the last 3 posts, ok I was thinking loyalist nillas like IF or ultramarines, for the razorspam thing. But I suppose you could do it with almost any codex.

You need to get to 10 CSM in a unit to purchase a heavy weapon.

The flaw in my plan. It was, as I mostly suspected, a case on an idiot.

Your idea is not bad but chaos has better: similiar to razorspam is spamming Obliterators. Chaos is almost fully assault army, so this spam idea dont work from that point either.

I always thought them as an average joe kinda force. Ranged plagues, assaulty berserkers, etc.

Thanks for the answer

You can make a pretty decent unit like you are describing with Noise Marines.

5 Noise Marines + Blastmaster in a Havoc Rhino.

Lacks anti tank a bit does it not? And they are 20pts each so that's 80 points of marines that never shoot. But as a single unit for an army, rather than spamming it, as i guess you are implying, it would be rather effective I suppose.

The unit is 190 points. Not too shabby. The Noise Marines are I5, Fearless, and still have bolters and bp/ccw's. The Blast Master has two modes of fire, so if need be, your Rhino can move and you can still shoot both the Havoc Launcher and the Blastmaster.

2-3 units like this can form a reasonable core in a Chaos army.

Works well with chosen. They can infiltrate and take a combi-melta then the squad takes 2 PR and 2 Meltas and
can chose which to fire out of the FP so 4 S7 and 1 one-shot S8 melta shot. Same can easily be done with chaos havocs who also have the option of taking 4 SW instead of HW.

Chaos troops however IMO, I built to assault whether a dedicated type or a vanilla CSM. BTW vanilla CSM with MoK is going to yield 4 attacks on the charge, pretty cheap and effective against all but termies and dedicated CC troops. Those can be the targets for your chosen and havocs.

Yeah I guess the overarching problem here is that the marines can't fire if the rhino moves. Razors are awesome cause they can move 6" and still fire something. If the rhino (with heavy weapon marine instead) moves, then said marine can't fire. Therefore, you haven't solved any of the mobility issues of putting a heavy weapon on an infantry model.

whitedragon wrote:You can make a pretty decent unit like you are describing with Noise Marines.

5 Noise Marines + Blastmaster in a Havoc Rhino.

In fact, this is a formidable unit for 190 pts. As said, it can be taken as backbone of a CSM army. I definitely gonna try this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PraetorDave wrote:Yeah I guess the overarching problem here is that the marines can't fire if the rhino moves. Razors are awesome cause they can move 6" and still fire something. If the rhino (with heavy weapon marine instead) moves, then said marine can't fire. Therefore, you haven't solved any of the mobility issues of putting a heavy weapon on an infantry model.

Well, if the Rhino moves not more than 6", it and two of its passengers can fire.

CSM rhinos only have one firepoint.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if the Rhino moves not more than 6", it and two of its passengers can fire.

This is incorrect. Sorry to rules lawyer you here, but page 66 says that "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn". So unless chaos marines suddenly gained relentless (which I know PM's have), if the rhino moves at all, then they can't shoot heavy weapons.

PraetorDave wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if the Rhino moves not more than 6", it and two of its passengers can fire.

This is incorrect. Sorry to rules lawyer you here, but page 66 says that "Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn". So unless chaos marines suddenly gained relentless (which I know PM's have), if the rhino moves at all, then they can't shoot heavy weapons.

You are both correct. If a rhino moves HW cannot fire but two passengers can fire if it moves 6" with anything else. The CSM version of a las/plas razorback:
Rhino w combi-melta. 10 CSM with 2 plasma rifles or 5 havocs or chosen with 2 plasma rifles. This yields 4 S7 shots at 12" and 1 S8 shot at 12" whereas the razorback is going to get either 1 S9 shot to 48" or 1 TL S7 shot to 24" or 2 TL S7 shots to 12". Surely shorter ranged but in some ways more lethal.

zilegil wrote:CSM rhinos only have one firepoint.

This is right, but the one firepoint allows 2 models to shoot. Had to prove this to my Tyranid opponent with the codex, so I am 100% positive about this.

Murenius wrote:

zilegil wrote:CSM rhinos only have one firepoint.

This is right, but the one firepoint allows 2 models to shoot.

Says where?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Murenius wrote:

zilegil wrote:CSM rhinos only have one firepoint.

This is right, but the one firepoint allows 2 models to shoot.

Says where?

Chaos Space Marine FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490289a_FAQ_ChaosSpaceMarines_2009.pdf

I usually measure shooting from the large hatch on the back, it this correct?

Whilst I applaud the inventiveness, It's not really an alternate to razorspam.

3xlong fangs+ a large number of razorbacks+riflemen dreads, typhoons etc

vs Havocs, oblits, noise marines with sonic blasters and havoc launchers? It really doesn't live up to the razorspam, I'd put my money on a shooting loyalist army over a shooting CSM army.

Jihallah wrote:Whilst I applaud the inventiveness, It's not really an alternate to razorspam.

3xlong fangs+ a large number of razorbacks+riflemen dreads, typhoons etc

vs Havocs, oblits, noise marines with sonic blasters and havoc launchers? It really doesn't live up to the razorspam, I'd put my money on a shooting loyalist army over a shooting CSM army.

Pure shooty CSM, I would agree but chaos has some very good options to run a hybrid list that a loyalist could never run. 10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts that yields 40 attacks on the charge.
So CSM shooty is there to take out the pesky pains like tyrannid MCs, vehicles, etc. So chosen or havocs with plasma rifles or meltaguns can successfully deal with that.

Noise marines are good but it is lash that makes the CSM shooty list work and that is less so with the overwhelming reasons for loyalists to play librians or rune priests.

It's better to take chosen with assault or rapid fire weapons, put them in outflanking rhinos and then roll as many obliterators as you can. You can then take two rhinos of basic marines that have mark of chaos glory and two las sorcerers, park the vehicle in cover and proceed to deny the enemy cover.

DAaddict wrote:10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts

180

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts

180

Still cheap compared to loyalists - by the time you outfit a tac squad, you will have more shooty but the same 180 will yield an underwhelming 20 attacks.

DAaddict wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts

180

Still cheap compared to loyalists - by the time you outfit a tac squad, you will have more shooty but the same 180 will yield an underwhelming 20 attacks.

But the tac squad has a sergeant with access to upgrades (an extra 15 points for CSM to have the same), has a flamer and MM, and will *never* be killed by sweeping advance.