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The Tactical Sergeant actually already has his "15 point upgrade" filtered in IIRC, as five naked Tacs are 90 points. Five CSM with one of the models being an Aspiring Champion is also 90 points.

While we pay slightly more for weapons we have access to double special weapons, Heavy Weapons are for oblits! I've never actually lost my Chaos to sweeping advance because I run my Icon of Chaos Undivided.

We're talking 10 man tactical squad compared to 10 man CSM squad right?

DAaddict wrote:

Pure shooty CSM, I would agree but chaos has some very good options to run a hybrid list that a loyalist could never run. 10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts that yields 40 attacks on the charge.
So CSM shooty is there to take out the pesky pains like tyrannid MCs, vehicles, etc. So chosen or havocs with plasma rifles or meltaguns can successfully deal with that.

Noise marines are good but it is lash that makes the CSM shooty list work and that is less so with the overwhelming reasons for loyalists to play librians or rune priests.

CSM run really really good hybrid lists ?!?!?!?!? well, I never would of thought that...


/end sarcasm

Also is comparing one unit to another, in a little bubble universe were just those units exist really a worthy endeavor? It seems to me the whole idea is to have an ARMY that works together, not a single unit that "hurr you get so much out of it!". Also add a rhino to the cost of your 180p unit, and its suddenly 215 (this is assuming you do want your 40 attacks on the charge, and not get the gak shot out of you as you hoof it down the field )! And hang on...they have no special weapons! Have fun cracking open a transport and assaulting the insides (oh wait, this is where the REST OF THE ARMY WORKING TOGETHER bit comes into it! but lets pretend the rest of the army doesn't matter, after all thats how we roll here at dakka!). I'll also point out the sheer joy your unit will have when it faces a dread in close combat! 40 attacks on the charge, whoop dee do dah day! you might as well get those 10 marines to piss on the dreadnought, they'll do much more damage that way! Now if we want to make sure thats not going to happen, thats another 20p minimum for a champ and a meltabomb! 10 CSM w/ champ, meltabomb, rhino, 235. Totally sounds like a great unit!

havocs with plasmaguns? whilst spamming special weapons on havocs is fun and all, have you tried AC or AC/ML havocs? See, between giving my CSM squads plasmaguns and meltaguns and some good ol' fashion rapid fire boltguns, and some support fire from havocs, I really don't have problems with MC's, or vehicles. The longer range has means more vehicles dead on my opponents side of the table, more wounded MC's when/if they reach my troops. I dunno about anyone else, but a transport destroyed in my opponents side of the field makes me FAR happier than an opponents transport destroyed on MY side the table. Maybe I'm just weird here...

I'd rather just play an army that can actually *afford* to bring the units needed to cover all its bases, tactically speaking. CSM really can't.

willydstyle wrote:I'd rather just play an army that can actually *afford* to bring the units needed to cover all its bases, tactically speaking. CSM really can't.

Well, CSM is still a viable army to play. It can cover all basics, with Daemon Princes, Obliterators, CSM and cult Marines in Rhinos, infiltrating Chosen, Termicide, and Havocs.

wuestenfux wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I'd rather just play an army that can actually *afford* to bring the units needed to cover all its bases, tactically speaking. CSM really can't.

Well, CSM is still a viable army to play. It can cover all basics, with Daemon Princes, Obliterators, CSM and cult Marines in Rhinos, infiltrating Chosen, Termicide, and Havocs.

But in an army that "covers allhe basics" you're looking at 2/3 the firepower and model count of any of the more modern codices. Chaos sucks. I've been playing Chaos Space Marines since before they even *had* a codex, and right now they are at their lowest. It pains me to say it, but they simply aren't worth playing, even in a "casual" environment.

Jihallah wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

Pure shooty CSM, I would agree but chaos has some very good options to run a hybrid list that a loyalist could never run. 10 CSM w MoK is a cheap @ 160 pts that yields 40 attacks on the charge.
So CSM shooty is there to take out the pesky pains like tyrannid MCs, vehicles, etc. So chosen or havocs with plasma rifles or meltaguns can successfully deal with that.

Noise marines are good but it is lash that makes the CSM shooty list work and that is less so with the overwhelming reasons for loyalists to play librians or rune priests.

CSM run really really good hybrid lists ?!?!?!?!? well, I never would of thought that...


/end sarcasm

Also is comparing one unit to another, in a little bubble universe were just those units exist really a worthy endeavor? It seems to me the whole idea is to have an ARMY that works together, not a single unit that "hurr you get so much out of it!". Also add a rhino to the cost of your 180p unit, and its suddenly 215 (this is assuming you do want your 40 attacks on the charge, and not get the gak shot out of you as you hoof it down the field )! And hang on...they have no special weapons! Have fun cracking open a transport and assaulting the insides (oh wait, this is where the REST OF THE ARMY WORKING TOGETHER bit comes into it! but lets pretend the rest of the army doesn't matter, after all thats how we roll here at dakka!). I'll also point out the sheer joy your unit will have when it faces a dread in close combat! 40 attacks on the charge, whoop dee do dah day! you might as well get those 10 marines to piss on the dreadnought, they'll do much more damage that way! Now if we want to make sure thats not going to happen, thats another 20p minimum for a champ and a meltabomb! 10 CSM w/ champ, meltabomb, rhino, 235. Totally sounds like a great unit!

havocs with plasmaguns? whilst spamming special weapons on havocs is fun and all, have you tried AC or AC/ML havocs? See, between giving my CSM squads plasmaguns and meltaguns and some good ol' fashion rapid fire boltguns, and some support fire from havocs, I really don't have problems with MC's, or vehicles. The longer range has means more vehicles dead on my opponents side of the table, more wounded MC's when/if they reach my troops. I dunno about anyone else, but a transport destroyed in my opponents side of the field makes me FAR happier than an opponents transport destroyed on MY side the table. Maybe I'm just weird here...

<sigh> I apologize for giving a simplistic unit eval. The point is that a SM unit sucks by comparison. I - oddly enough - would also probably not field a 10-man without two special weapons and an aspiring champion with a power fist or melta bomb at least. Rhinos did not enter into the comparison as the point was about what was carried inside...

Havocs or Chosen with Plasma Guns (or Melta or even flamers) is an option that loyalists do not have. While oblits are awesome they are susceptible to long ranged lascannon fire or rail rifles. Some people prefer to deliver their goodies en mass... If 3 rhinos filled with cc troops is good perhaps 5 or 6 with some fire support (havocs) might be nice. Target overload so to speak. Chosen are an odd duck because they can use infiltrate to overcome their shorter range so 5 plasma guns can be as effective as 4 missile launchers at the back of the board and they offer anti-FNP and anti-terminator fire.

Chosen with plasmas? For rather a bit less than two of those units, I.E. ten chosen, you could get a unit of sternguard with combi plasmas in a drop pod. Ten plasmas at rapid fire range does a lot of damage, without mishap because of the pod. Fair enough it is only for one turn and it can't be the first. But it is probably going to do rather a lot more damage than non rapid firing plasmas that have a habit of taking A LOT of wounds. And then you get rapid firing hellfire rounds if you are lucky and everything that was in rapid fire range of you when you landed is dead.

It seems that Willydstyle is right. Unfortunately.

zilegil wrote:Chosen with plasmas? For rather a bit less than two of those units, I.E. ten chosen, you could get a unit of sternguard with combi plasmas in a drop pod. Ten plasmas at rapid fire range does a lot of damage, without mishap because of the pod. Fair enough it is only for one turn and it can't be the first. But it is probably going to do rather a lot more damage than non rapid firing plasmas that have a habit of taking A LOT of wounds. And then you get rapid firing hellfire rounds if you are lucky and everything that was in rapid fire range of you when you landed is dead.

It seems that Willydstyle is right. Unfortunately.

Well, you could also get 5 Chosen with 4 plasma guns in a Rhino infiltrating or outflanking.

If you wanted to do a MSU CSM army at 2500 pts,

2 DP LoS
3 5 Chosen 5 Meltas rhinos w/ havoc launchers
3 5 Havocs 4 meltas "
6 5 PM sqquads 2 Melta "

The army is very playable, 37 meltas 12 havoc lauchers, 2 DP
Sounds like fun to me.

I would probably put some flamers and plasma guns in but I was trying to keep it simple.

Snickerdoodle wrote:If you wanted to do a MSU CSM army at 2500 pts,

2 DP LoS
3 5 Chosen 5 Meltas rhinos w/ havoc launchers
3 5 Havocs 4 meltas "
6 5 PM sqquads 2 Melta "

The army is very playable, 37 meltas 12 havoc lauchers, 2 DP
Sounds like fun to me.

I would probably put some flamers and plasma guns in but I was trying to keep it simple.

Looks really good. However, I'd prefer lash Sorcerers instead of DPs at this pt level since DPs die easily when they come under heavy fire.

It is all preference, I like the opponent shhooting at the Princes. That way they are not shooting at what is going to hurt them.

Snickerdoodle wrote:It is all preference, I like the opponent shhooting at the Princes. That way they are not shooting at what is going to hurt them.

But if you gonna take lash Princes you want them to be alive as long as possible.

Absolutely, so that the next turn the opponent is shooting at them again, at this point you will be able to open up with your meltas.

That sounds like an overly complicated way to achieve nothing. Havoc launchers are good stuff, but taking ten dudes just to get an overpriced HW to fire out of a stationary vehicle is.. odd.

Let's see. A ten man unit with a Missile Launcher in a rhino with a havoc is... 220 points, right? Okay, not bad. I guess. You're in a metal box, which gives you moderate protection for a couple turns.

Or.

Five man Havoc Squad, x2 missiles, rhino, havoc --> 155 points

Just saying. It's not razorspam, but it's a horribly effective unit, since two models can fire from the same fire point (the large hatch, check the FAQ )