Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just wondering if a Librarian Gate out of CC? I can't really find anything that says you can't.

Yes, but the best part, he can take the squad with him, and it leaves the bad guys all clustered up for blasts!

Or no, since the power does not state that it can be used to leave combat (ala Necron Veil).

And there in a nutshell you have the two opposing views.
Might be better for you to do a poll and go with majority because this has been debated to death.
FWIW, I agree with don mondo, you need to have specific permission to leave close combat.

time wizard wrote:FWIW, I agree with don mondo, you need to have specific permission to leave close combat.

FWIW, GW's ruleset is so sloppy in general that nobody really knows what requirements need be met for 'gray' conditions like this. It really has to come down to what the author intended, which we have no idea of knowing unless/until they clarify it via FAQ or somesuch.

This argument gets shelved along with Deffrollas, God of War, Thunderwulf Lords, and all the other stuff that has caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the net over the years.

I would say yes, because the very first part of the power is "Remove from the table."

AresX8 wrote:I would say yes, because the very first part of the power is "Remove from the table."

Yah, this seems correct to me as well.

sourclams wrote:

time wizard wrote:FWIW, I agree with don mondo, you need to have specific permission to leave close combat.

FWIW, GW's ruleset is so sloppy in general that nobody really knows what requirements need be met for 'gray' conditions like this. It really has to come down to what the author intended, which we have no idea of knowing unless/until they clarify it via FAQ or somesuch.

The closest you get to requirements when locked in close combat is the last sentence of 'Pile-in!' page 40 main rules:

"While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

Is Gate of Infinity a pile-in move? If not, you cannot make that move.

Not looking to start this all over again though.

time wizard wrote:

sourclams wrote:

time wizard wrote:FWIW, I agree with don mondo, you need to have specific permission to leave close combat.

FWIW, GW's ruleset is so sloppy in general that nobody really knows what requirements need be met for 'gray' conditions like this. It really has to come down to what the author intended, which we have no idea of knowing unless/until they clarify it via FAQ or somesuch.

The closest you get to requirements when locked in close combat is the last sentence of 'Pile-in!' page 40 main rules:

"While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

Is Gate of Infinity a pile-in move? If not, you cannot make that move.

Not looking to start this all over again though.

Gate of Infinity is a Psyker power, not movement or shooting. Anyway, it seems like this has been hashed out before and there is still no general consensus I am going to go with what makes sense to me. Use of the power creates a rift though warp space causing the Librarian and his squad to be transported instantly to another location. This is not normal movement...they are removed from the table and placed elsewhere. Fluff wise, this seems to make more sense as well...why would a Ork with a choppa coming at the Libby have any effect on a warp rift?

jonahgabriel wrote:

Gate of Infinity is a Psyker power, not movement or shooting.

Yes, and so is Skyleap, (an Exarch Power) which says remove from the table and place in reserve and that if it was engaged the enemy unit may make a consolidation move.

Or Veil of Darkness which also says to remove the models from the tabletop and place them back anywhere and also gives permission to remove the models even if in base contact with enemy models.

Gate of Infinity does not have the same specific exception to allow the Librarian to move out of base contact or to move from engaged enemy units. That's why I never use it to move the Librarian (and his unit) from close combat.

But again, this has been done to death, no sense hashing it out again, there have been no errata or FAQs that addressed this particular issue.

EDIT: To answer your last question, maybe having an Ork with a choppa rush at the Librarian is enough of a distraction to keep him from concentrating on using that particular power.

time wizard wrote:

jonahgabriel wrote:

Gate of Infinity is a Psyker power, not movement or shooting.

Yes, and so is Skyleap, (an Exarch Power) which says remove from the table and place in reserve and that if it was engaged the enemy unit may make a consolidation move.

Or Veil of Darkness which also says to remove the models from the tabletop and place them back anywhere and also gives permission to remove the models even if in base contact with enemy models.

Gate of Infinity does not have the same specific exception to allow the Librarian to move out of base contact or to move from engaged enemy units. That's why I never use it to move the Librarian (and his unit) from close combat.

But again, this has been done to death, no sense hashing it out again, there have been no errata or FAQs that addressed this particular issue.

EDIT: To answer your last question, maybe having an Ork with a choppa rush at the Librarian is enough of a distraction to keep him from concentrating on using that particular power.

To rebut your last answer: If a rush by an Ork is enough of a distraction to use GoI, wouldn't it stop any other power from being used?

Well, I did say "maybe".

Just out of curiosity, does the GoI say when during your turn it is used? I know generally psychic powers state when they are used (i.e. beginning of your turn, beginning of the assault phase, psychic shooting attack, etc)

Happyjew wrote:Just out of curiosity, does the GoI say when during your turn it is used? I know generally psychic powers state when they are used (i.e. beginning of your turn, beginning of the assault phase, psychic shooting attack, etc)

"This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's movement phase."

Part 1:
Deep striking counts as movement.

Gate of infinitiy counts as deepstriling.

therefore Gate of infinity = movement.

Part 2:
you can not move out of combat unless another rule says that you can.

Gate of infinity = movement

No gate out of combat

There will be no winner in this argument.

Again.

sourclams wrote:There will be no winner in this argument.

Again.

I am in full agreement with this statement!

Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Grey Templar wrote:Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Actually GoI is movement, just like Deepstriking. Unfortunately you may not move out of CC unless explicitly allowed to do so IE; Veil of Darkness

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Actually GoI is movement, just like Deepstriking. Unfortunately you may not move out of CC unless explicitly allowed to do so IE; Veil of Darkness

it just says they are removed from the table, and immediatly placed back anywhere using the Deep Strike rules.

the only part that is undeniably movement is the Deep Strike. being removed from the Table is NOT movement. unless you can prove it somehow?

Grey Templar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Actually GoI is movement, just like Deepstriking. Unfortunately you may not move out of CC unless explicitly allowed to do so IE; Veil of Darkness

it just says they are removed from the table, and immediatly placed back anywhere using the Deep Strike rules.

the only part that is undeniably movement is the Deep Strike. being removed from the Table is NOT movement. unless you can prove it somehow?

"are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules." Codex SM pg 57



I don't see any break in sentence, which means you're reading out of context. Simple Grammar dictates that the Remove the models and the Following Rules for Deepstrike are in fact one and the same simple sentence. That said you may not use the rules for Deepstrike to get out of CC because it is movement.

It's not reading out of context. It's two separate effects. Once a unit is removed off the table, any restrictions to movement do not apply to them because they're not on the table. Then, they go back on the table using Deep Strike rules.

time wizard wrote:EDIT: To answer your last question, maybe having an Ork with a choppa rush at the Librarian is enough of a distraction to keep him from concentrating on using that particular power.

Speaking of Orks, the Weirdboy powa 'Ere we go! also gives explicit permission to leave close combat. Or rather it demands you use it even if B-2-B with enemies - the enemies stay in place.

Redundancy is occasionally put into place even though it isn't needed. GW repeats its rules all the time.

For example, a Daemon Prince can purchase Wings. Wings are described as Jump Packs. GW wrote an FAQ saying that models with Wings can Deep Strike. Completely pointless, as that is 100% written in the rules. Redundancy.

Grey Templar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Actually GoI is movement, just like Deepstriking. Unfortunately you may not move out of CC unless explicitly allowed to do so IE; Veil of Darkness

it just says they are removed from the table, and immediatly placed back anywhere using the Deep Strike rules.

the only part that is undeniably movement is the Deep Strike. being removed from the Table is NOT movement. unless you can prove it somehow?

You uh, have to move the models in order to remove them from the table. bada boom bada bing, next player.

KGatch113 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Basically, GW needs to make a ruling on this.

I personally see it as the Libby is allowed to Gate out with a unit. He is saving his Brothers from a nasty fate.


The power itself says you remove the models from the table. That in itself isn't movement as the models are no longer on the table, and as such couldn't have moved. at which point, the CC rules no longer effect them and they are allowed to move(IE: Deep Strike)


But GW needs to have the final say.

Actually GoI is movement, just like Deepstriking. Unfortunately you may not move out of CC unless explicitly allowed to do so IE; Veil of Darkness

it just says they are removed from the table, and immediatly placed back anywhere using the Deep Strike rules.

the only part that is undeniably movement is the Deep Strike. being removed from the Table is NOT movement. unless you can prove it somehow?

You uh, have to move the models in order to remove them from the table. bada boom bada bing, next player.

Yes, but thats not movement in the game. its movement in the physical realm, but it isn't "Movement"

When you use GoI you count as moving after you finish DSing, but GoI is not a move, nor does it replace normal movement.

It is simply used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase (Not that such a thing exists).

You can cast non PSA Psychic powers whilst in combat, and GoI does not restrict this, thus you may use GoI while in CC.

How does one remove something without moving it?

Anything relating to the movement phase is unrelated that I can see.

What did I miss this time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote: nor does it replace normal movement

Err. . .so the unit can move afterwards?!?

Editing to add--in relation to the GoI not moving a unit:
Are you then also saying (because the situation is identical) that if the movement phase starts with a unit already within 2" of an access point, that unit can embark and not count as moving?
The notes about ICs seem to contradict that.

You missed that movement, and the act of physically removing models from the table, are not the same thing as far as the BRB is concerned.

You can not move after, but that is only because the DS rules do not allow you to move.

It does not state that it replaces movement, so it does not.

Counts as moving, and making a normal move are not the same thing.

Thats like saying it says remove the models; however there's no definition of Remove in the BRB so ... you can't remove them ...