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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Thats like saying it says remove the models; however there's no definition of Remove in the BRB so ... you can't remove them ...

Except we fall back on the english definition, and everything works.

While Movement is clearly defined in the BRB, and we do not fall back on the english definition for that situation.

Simple really.

Ah the english language, how i love thee. Just like their rule of remove them and Deepstrike them (paraphrased roughly)

They're one and the same; and DS is movement so you'd be moving out of combat.

Simplicity

DS is not movement.

You count as having moved, but you have not actually made a Move, since you have not used any of the rules for movement.

They're able to Dangerous Terrain tests aren't they?

BGB pg 14

"through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move"

keyword there is move

time wizard wrote:

The closest you get to requirements when locked in close combat is the last sentence of 'Pile-in!' page 40 main rules:

"While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

Is Gate of Infinity a pile-in move? If not, you cannot make that move.

I would agree with this except that it says in the rule book that the codex over rules the rulebook.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:

time wizard wrote:

The closest you get to requirements when locked in close combat is the last sentence of 'Pile-in!' page 40 main rules:

"While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

Is Gate of Infinity a pile-in move? If not, you cannot make that move.

I would agree with this except that it says in the rule book that the codex over rules the rulebook.

Yes it does, when it expressly says so. I don't believe any codexes state you must stay locked in combat and can't leave til its done.

However there are a couple that specify they may leave CC

DeathReaper wrote:You missed that movement, and the act of physically removing models from the table, are not the same thing as far as the BRB is concerned.

That is what I thought you were meaning.
So then, what does "move" mean in the book that is different than the word itself?
When I look up both "move" and "remove" in the BRB they are not listed.

Looking them up otherwise garners this:
Move, to change position
Remove, take (something) away from the position occupied

Now, I still wonder how to remove something from the table without moving it.

Saying "Its not the same thing" means little when there is nothing else for it to mean.
Please let me know the pages you were refering to last time, it would help me a lot.

Still curious about this bit:

kirsanth wrote:Editing to add--in relation to the GoI not moving a unit:
Are you then also saying (because the situation is identical) that if the movement phase starts with a unit already within 2" of an access point, that unit can embark and not count as moving?
The notes about ICs seem to contradict that.

Movement is clearly defined in the rules for the Movement phase. You move a set number of inches based on unit type, this "Movement" is forbidden if a unit is locked in combat.


Gate of Infinity tells you to "Remove the models from the table", which means they are no longer in combat, "and place back anywhere on the table using the Deep Strike rules"

"Remove models from the table" is most certantly NOT movement as it is never mentioned in the movement rules.

Grey Templar wrote:Movement is clearly defined in the rules for the Movement phase. You move a set number of inches based on unit type, this "Movement" is forbidden if a unit is locked in combat.

First, no. It isn't. Moving during the movement phase is described.
Move is not defined.

Second, page 11 "Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase" is the quote. It in no way references what movement is forbidden as ALL movement is forbidden during that phase. Not simply movement that would remove it from combat.

kirsanth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Movement is clearly defined in the rules for the Movement phase. You move a set number of inches based on unit type, this "Movement" is forbidden if a unit is locked in combat.

First, no. It isn't. Moving during the movement phase is described.
Move is not defined.

Second, page 11 "Units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase" is the quote. It in no way references what movement is forbidden as ALL movement is forbidden during that phase. Not simply movement that would remove it from combat.

and then we revert to Specific > General.

Gate of Infinity is more specific then those general guidelines.

If there were a specific allowance, that would be true and this question would not come up. (Editing to add: Actually it would, people claim WBB vs SA with as much vehemence)


Assuming an allowance without the text is. . .shady at best.

Its slightly grey and could go either way.

GW really needs to FAQ this one, although I feel it won't get resolved since 6th edition isn't more then a year away and that means a new Vanilla codex.

I think GW is, in fact, the greatest internet troll to have ever existed. They leave issues like this vague on purpose and, somewhere in the UK, there is an office party going on with a bunch of GW employees reading this and laughing.

DR - DS IS movement, as it states you "may not move any further"- meaning DS IS movement.

You are not allowed to move while locked in combat; you are attempting to perform an action which IS a move (DS) so are breaking a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - DS IS movement, as it states you "may not move any further"- meaning DS IS movement.

You are not allowed to move while locked in combat; you are attempting to perform an action which IS a move (DS) so are breaking a rule.

No, It does not follow any of the movement rules, therefore not movement as laid out in the BRB.

They only say "may not move any further" because DS counts as if the unit had moved.

Yet it IS a move as laid out in the BRB, as you cannot move any further.

Being unable to move any further requires you to have modev initially.

The players that are assuming you can, are asuming. Nowhere does it say it is permissable. so it is not.

It is simple, you may not like the way it works, that doesn't mean you may decide how to play based on your own needs.

All of this bickering! now to refer to the one rule in the BRB at times like these DICE OFF!

Shaso- please read the tenets and notice which one you have broken

TMIR is pointless in a rules debate on a forum

Yes, the Deep Strike is movement.

However, you are removed from combat before the Deep Strike occurs. Removal is not movement and isn't prohibited by combat. Once you have been removed, then you will immediatly Deep Strike. you are no longer in CC and as such are not prohibited from moving.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, the Deep Strike is movement.

However, you are removed from combat before the Deep Strike occurs. Removal is not movement and isn't prohibited by combat. Once you have been removed, then you will immediatly Deep Strike. you are no longer in CC and as such are not prohibited from moving.

Good catch.

Lets say even if DS is movement, GT has it on the spot, removing models from the table is not movement and happens before you use the DS rules.

Therefore you can use gate to remove yourself from the table as removing yourself from the table is not movement, and is allowed due to Gate.

First of all DS is movement so I don't have to say or pretend it is. It just is (simple)

Secondly You have no permission to leave combat do you?

You would openly use a power that will move you out of combat. Moving out of combat is expressly disallowed in the BGB.

If you're locked in combat at the beginning of your movement phase you cannot use GOI simply because it will MOVE you.

bgb pg 11 "Units already locked in CC with the enemy may not move duing the movement phase"

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:You would openly use a power that will move you out of combat.

Being removed from combat != moving out of combat.

rigeld2 wrote:Being removed from combat != moving out of combat.

Even if that statement were true, moving out of combat is still not what is prohibited.

Casting a Psychic power, then being removed from the table is not movement.

So you can use GoI whilst on the table, without restriction, since you have permission to cast said Psychic power.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you could not use psychic powers while engaged in assault unless the power specifically allows it (i.e. Hypnotic Gaze or Aura of Despair).

Happyjew wrote:Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you could not use psychic powers while engaged in assault unless the power specifically allows it (i.e. Hypnotic Gaze or Aura of Despair).

You are restricted from using Psychic Shooting Attacks, or any powers that specifically restrict their use while in CC.

DeathReaper wrote:So you can use GoI whilst on the table, without restriction, since you have permission to cast said Psychic power.

Except the unit is still not allowed to move (at all, let alone 'further') in a movement phase where the unit was locked in CC, which that would cause the unit to count as/actually doing.

Very much like the embarking example I mentioned a couple times now.

don_mondo wrote:Or no, since the power does not state that it can be used to leave combat (ala Necron Veil).

and ork ere we go

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:You would openly use a power that will move you out of combat.

Being removed from combat != moving out of combat.

Now read the rest of the line to me; about Deepstriking. They are one and the same beings you are not allowed to do the second half of the power you may not do the first half. It's really quite clear about this when it states models in CC may not Move