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Okay.

True Line of Sight: your model can only shoot at what it can only see. This is done by looking through the back of the model's head.

Okay.

Fish of Fury. It's the tactic where your Fire Warriors shoot through the devilfish in 4th ed, but now in 5th Fire warriors can't do that because the miniatures head's are too high to see under the Devilfish.
But, one or two models in a squad are 'kneeling' and thus CAN see under the devilfish.

That is ridiculous.

If some models can kneel, why can't all of them? Why can't all models go prone and stand up when necessary for purposes of shooting?

Look at the model of the Pathfinder with a Railrifle that's proning flat on the ground. If he were to go behind a sandbag line, he couldn't shoot because he can't see over it!!!

I believe that the 'model' is a snapshot of some point in the battle, and that the soldiers have legs and function as such to actively take cover and look over various terrain. I will continue to use FoF regardless of the models in friendly games. I just feel the TLOS rule is so dumb

Convert them so that they are all on ladders to see over it or alternatively lie them all down in the prone shooting position...

Phototoxin wrote:Convert them so that they are all on ladders to see over it or alternatively lie them all down in the prone shooting position...

I don't know about you but I don't want to sacrifice my army's look just for that and make them all look like tools.

its better than the alternative...which is abstraction, which lead to things like "you cant shoot my daemon prince becaues this 3" high wall is blocking your line of sight"

Lightcavalier wrote:its better than the alternative...which is abstraction, which lead to things like "you cant shoot my daemon prince becaues this 3" high wall is blocking your line of sight"

Except that there's no reason for that to be the only alternative.

What's wrong with "can any part of this model see any part of that model" combined with the currently fine cover rules?

I dont really disagree with that idea, conceptually I really like it....but i somehow think it would lead to even more arguments than TLOS already does

Rented Tritium wrote:What's wrong with "can any part of this model see any part of that model" combined with the currently fine cover rules?

It doesn't address the problem of kneeling/prine models not being able to see over low obstacles when standing models can.

And it has exactly the same potential for abuse through 'creative' modelling as the current system...

The current system with a provision that the model can draw LOS from any height up to the height of the standing model would go a long way towards fixing things... but the current system really works just fine in the vast majority of situations, and has the virtue of being relatively simple.

GW tried an 'abstraction' in 4th edition called area terrain. The game designers decided to remove those rules in 5th edition.

Area terrain is still in the game


its just not the same thing as the stupidity that was 4th ed area terrain

Area terrain was a good rule in 4th edition. The only problem was that too many players tried to apply it to situations where it did not apply, ie all of the time.

The point with TLOS is that, if say you have a Firewarrior kneeling down, he can't see certain things, but also certain things can't see him. Ex, if he was standing against a low wall, he could get shot at with 4+ cover, but if he was kneeling he couldn't be shot at all. The sacrifice works both ways.

Kneeling your guys down is not MfA

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Kneeling your guys down is not MfA

Actually, it potentially is. Some armies benefit more than others by being harder to shoot.

The most commonly floated example of this is the idea of modelling a horde of termagants prone. The negative impact of being prone (harder to draw LOS from the unit) is negated by the fact that they don't shoot in the first place. So you get a big cover bonus, with the only downside being that your army looks ridiculous.

40K's LOS rules are a long way from being perfect... they rely rather heavily on players agreeing to not be silly about the whole thing. The more abstract idea of using size categories to denote LOS blocking works much better in a competitive environment. GW simply chose to stick with true LOS because it's more engaging for the players... despite all of it's flaws, getting that model's eye view of the 'action' connects you with the game in a way that standing over the table and saying 'this guy has a bigger base than that guy, so blocks his LOS' never will.

YMMV, obviously.

Well, you're right about going prone being silly.

Also, I understand your point with the termagants.

I mean, I guess you'll just have to be the judge of how nice your opponent is being about it, whether he's MfA or just M. Now that I think about it, it won't work in a tournament.

Guardsman Marbo quite enjoys TLOS.



Because he's right below you.

insaniak wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Kneeling your guys down is not MfA

Actually, it potentially is. Some armies benefit more than others by being harder to shoot.

The most commonly floated example of this is the idea of modelling a horde of termagants prone. The negative impact of being prone (harder to draw LOS from the unit) is negated by the fact that they don't shoot in the first place. So you get a big cover bonus, with the only downside being that your army looks ridiculous.

Hormagaunts, but otherwise...yea.

A friend had a number of them glued 'sliding' because their ankles always break.
The ones he has have been that way since before the TLOS made them even more LUDICROUS, but they are pretty funny.

kirsanth wrote:Hormagaunts, but otherwise...yea.

Yeah, that...

Had a vague moment, obviously.

The ones he has have been that way since before the TLOS made them even more LUDICROUS, but they are pretty funny.

'Before TLOS'...?

Was he using them in some other game...?

insaniak wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The ones he has have been that way since before the TLOS made them even more LUDICROUS, but they are pretty funny.

'Before TLOS'...?

Was he using them in some other game...?

Ak!

Touché. . .I was thinking "5e TLOS" and left out the "5e".

Fair enough...

Yeah, lets not bring back 4th ed Terrain. Terrain Levels were a nightmare. My dudes in that bastion couldn't see the dudes behind that forest(even though I could clearly see them under TLOS) because both were Lvl3 terrain features.

at least with TLOS, any repositioning of models will cut both ways. you can't see me, but I can't see you either(barring models with no guns to shoot who don't really care)

4th edition used TLOS just like 5th edition does and 3rd edition did. It sounds like you made the same mistake so many players did and treated everything as area terrain when you should have only been using it for abstract terrain features such as forests, etc.

Moar - you do realise FoF only worked in 4th because skimmers were appaerntly not there, and never blocked LOS?

Thats an ugly abstraction. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

Put your skimmers on the tall flight base and you should be able to draw LOS to models close up.

moarmoarmoar wrote:Okay.

True Line of Sight: your model can only shoot at what it can only see. This is done by looking through the back of the model's head.

Okay.

Fish of Fury. It's the tactic where your Fire Warriors shoot through the devilfish in 4th ed, but now in 5th Fire warriors can't do that because the miniatures head's are too high to see under the Devilfish.
But, one or two models in a squad are 'kneeling' and thus CAN see under the devilfish.

That is ridiculous.

But that fact that the skimmer apparently was transparent or invisible was fine!?!

This is just sour grapes. You liked one abstraction, but hate the other abstraction. *shakes head*

Try looking at the game from a broader perspective than just your own army.

"Try looking at the game from a broader perspective than just your own army."

In which we discover why Tau and Nids players are so whiny.

And yet if a Trygon is in a crater which is 'area terrain' he gets a cover save despite being the size of a building. I thought 3rd edition was fine for LoS stuff.

Phototoxin wrote:And yet if a Trygon is in a crater which is 'area terrain' he gets a cover save despite being the size of a building. I thought 3rd edition was fine for LoS stuff.

No he doesnt. reread the MC rules and you'll see why.

insaniak wrote:40K's LOS rules are a long way from being perfect... they rely rather heavily on players agreeing to not be silly about the whole thing.

I agree. The game tends to fall apart when people get too far into the minute details of the system. It isn't perfect and so is open to abuse.

insaniak wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:What's wrong with "can any part of this model see any part of that model" combined with the currently fine cover rules?

It doesn't address the problem of kneeling/prine models not being able to see over low obstacles when standing models can.

And it has exactly the same potential for abuse through 'creative' modelling as the current system...

The current system with a provision that the model can draw LOS from any height up to the height of the standing model would go a long way towards fixing things... but the current system really works just fine in the vast majority of situations, and has the virtue of being relatively simple.

Well in any event, my point was that those aren't the only two options. I like your idea of a provision.

I think that GW could solve this soooo easily. first of all, have vehicles and infantry use the exact same rules for cover. if you are in the cover, you get a cover save. infantry get a 4+ cover save, vehicles and monstrous creatures get a 5+ cover save. If the unit is completely obscured no one gets to shoot at it.

done.

You know what's really annoying about TLoS?

The way it screws over scenic bases.

Fafnir wrote:You know what's really annoying about TLoS?

The way it screws over scenic bases.

Page 3 called. It said to check that whole 'scenic bases are opponent permission only' thing out and give it a call back.

So really, page 3 is the one that screws scenic bases, not TLOS. Get it right.

Also, you know what's really annoying about TLoS? These threads.