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Lets not forget that the first rule is to have fun.

Our group does not get bent if my 2 FWs that are kneeling in the 12man Squad get to shoot over the wall. Likewise they are able to be targeted/killed in reply.

Another thing, most terrain is not to scale....it is invariably too big and even the larger of the Base Infantry still have the parapet come up to their shoulders or nearly their heads....Try placing Ratlings ANYWHERE on the table behind cover and still let them actually get their guns over the edge.
Relax a bit about TLOS.....and to the OP....place your DF on a tall flying base and shoot under it...

DAaddict wrote:Walk out your door - assuming you have natural forests about. Just see how far in you can see. There is underbrush and overgrowth that darn near makes a forest impossible to see through.

No it doesn't.

Firstly, we're talking about small clumps of trees on the table - not forest.

Secondly, forests do not block line of sight except over very long distances. In the kind of forest you'll find in most parts of Europe you can see several hundred yards without difficulty.


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Grey Templar wrote:50-100 feet isn't exactly good visability in an age where we have rifles that can kill from miles away. at that distance it is hard to miss, any further and you can't see anything.

It's pretty good when your weapons can only just shoot from one end of a tank to the other.

The distances in 40k are abstracted and there is distance compression. within 6", 1"=6 feet. between 6" and 12", 1"= 10 yards. 12"-36", 1"=100 yards. 36"+, 1"=1000 meters.

Something like that anyway.

so the forest area terrain your dudes are standing in could actually be several acres of dense woods and not a small clump of nicely trimmed trees.

Grey Templar wrote:The distances in 40k are abstracted and there is distance compression. within 6", 1"=6 feet. between 6" and 12", 1"= 10 yards. 12"-36", 1"=100 yards. 36"+, 1"=1000 meters.
Something like that anyway.
so the forest area terrain your dudes are standing in could actually be several acres of dense woods and not a small clump of nicely trimmed trees.

According to that the clump of trees is bigger when it's further away?

Yeah, exactly. If you actually believe that the 8 inch wide clump of trees is actually an entire forest spanning acres, then you should have no problem with the rules being as abstract as they are. If you just take it to be a small grove of trees to approximate scale with the models in it, then you can very easily see through it.

50 to 100 feet was also just a random number I threw out there. I'm sure it is much more than that, depending on what kind of forest we are talking about. 4+ cover really is an adequate representation for game purposes. That 4+ means a Vindicare Assassin, a trained sniper who was bred for the specific purpose of being a marksman, trained his entire life for said purpose, and can pick out individual enemies from among hundreds moving around in the middle of a battle, might miss because trees get in the way. You can see through forests, in real life, and in game. Just like in real life though, sometimes it is hard to see because of all the trees and brush. Therefore, 4+ cover save.

I think it would be cool to have a maximum distance that you can see through forests, but for it to make sense it would have to be longer than the width of every piece of forest terrain I've ever seen. Again, you have two options. Either everything is at approximate scale, and they really are just small groves. Or, everything is a giant abstraction, and that 6 foot tall guardsman, inside a piece of forest terrain that is about 8 times longer than he is, is actually in a giant forest. In the latter case, the game board itself is so wildly abstract, that it would be impossible to make the rules even the slightest bit realistic, and so the blanket 4+ cover is fine.

Also, and this is not an attack on anyone in any way, but I'm just curious: where do you get that thing about distance compression? I can see how it might make sense, but did they actually ever say that anywhere, or is that just something the internet decided was right?

Forests can be dense enough where you can not see 50 feet. I have a forest right outside my house that is VERY dense. The max distance you can see is probably 50 at the most. And that is while you are inside it. From the outside, there are tall enough bushes and what-not so you can not even see inside.

EDIT: In fact, looking at it now, 50 feet might be pushing it. From the outside, you can see about 7 or so feet into the forest.
And remember, a big factor in LOS in a forest, even less dense ones, is the absolute mass of green that you will see. With enough shrubs, it looks like a wall of green, even if it is 30 feet away from you.

Keep in mind though that this is in summer. If it were winter, you could see at least 40 feet into it, more than likely even further.

forruner_mercy wrote:EDIT: In fact, looking at it now, 50 feet might be pushing it. From the outside, you can see about 7 or so feet into the forest.

Find an 8-foot-tall friend, and get them to dress up in bright red clothing and go stand in there. That will give you a better idea in 40K terms.

But remember that his arms and legs don't count

insaniak wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:EDIT: In fact, looking at it now, 50 feet might be pushing it. From the outside, you can see about 7 or so feet into the forest.

Find an 8-foot-tall friend, and get them to dress up in bright red clothing and go stand in there. That will give you a better idea in 40K terms.

That is a good point. That was really more of a response of one always being to see more than 50 feet into a forest (it seemed to be implied in an earlier post; if not, my bad), which is definitely not the case.

Grey Templar wrote:But remember that his arms and legs don't count

Hands and feet, actually. Arms and legs DO count

What defines the Arm from the Hand on a Tyranid creature? more issues...

Grey Templar wrote:What defines the Arm from the Hand on a Tyranid creature? more issues...

The only arms without hands are the scything talons, all of the arms that hold weapons, rending claws (unless modded diferently), and genestealers have clearly defined hands.

Happyjew wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:What defines the Arm from the Hand on a Tyranid creature? more issues...

The only arms without hands are the scything talons, all of the arms that hold weapons, rending claws (unless modded diferently), and genestealers have clearly defined hands.

But how do we know what Tyranid hands look like, eh? For all we know, what we think is their hands could be their noses!

Cue ST6: Undiscovered Country.....

Grey Templar wrote:But remember that his arms and legs don't count

Arms and legs specifically do count.

Why is a general discussion on TLOS in YMDC again?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:But remember that his arms and legs don't count

Arms and legs specifically do count.

already been pointed out.

jmurph wrote:Why is a general discussion on TLOS in YMDC again?

History repeats itself... itself.... itself.....

This happens with meme threads as well

I don't usually complain too much when I'm playing with someone, but sometimes I think TLOS is a little bit ridiculous sometimes. I was at a tournament when I over hear two players arguing (a Necron and a Dark Templar player). The Dark Templar player claims that the Necron Warriors cannot see a squad of units (don't know what units, wasn't really focusing on them) because the objective the Dark Templar unit was sitting on was blocking the units TLOS. I'm not sure how they presented the problem to the judge (perhaps misunderstanding, either the judge agreed, or they didn't ask. Thus the Necron player lost.

They then did a little bit of TheoryHammer and continued the game as though the objective did not block TLOS. The Necron player won. Sometime later, the judge told them that objectives do not block LOS. This pissed off the Necron player. They couldn't change the verdict since that match was long over. The Necron player was pissed, since Necrons hardly win anything in 5ed. The Dark Templar player responded back that his Dark Templars never win anything and that it was his first time winning in a long time with them.

Not sure if there's a moral to the story, but a TLOS story there.

Another story involving myself was that a player claimed that they can shoot my disembarked Howling Banshees from a Wave Serpent because everything is depicted by TLOS and things are measured from the base. So essentially, his units' base can see the bases of my Howling Banshees thus he can shoot at them, I get a cover save, since the Wave Serpent covered about 99% of the models, but a got a few unnecessary casualties. I thought that was stupid. If that really was a battlefield: 1. The Wave Serpent would decent low enough to make sure her cargo is safe, rather than having them jump out and hoping they don't break their ankles. 2. Units wouldn't be spraying bullets to try to get the legs of the unit disembarking from the Wave Serpent. You would kind of focus on the Wave Serpent's twin guns barreling down your necks.

Lets compare 2 transport tanks: a Rhino, and a Wave Serpent. I can't shoot the tactical marines coming from the back of the Rhino but I can get shot hiding behind a Wave Serpent? True, one of them is floating, but I think the odds of hitting someone below a tank that changes vector fields is so astronomically small you might as well say you can't shoot through it.

Now, as I'm writing this, I realized, in actuality, I can be accused of doing the same thing. When a Death Company disembarks from a Stormraven, I would shoot it and even would go so far as to claim that it wouldn't get a cover save because of TLOS. But the Stormraven is a skimmer as well, and they would lower their positions so the passengers can get out safely instead of breaking their necks jumping down.

So, after this post, I'm really confused about TLOS.

Well infantry draw LOS from their "eyes" so the base to base you speak of is quite wrong.

TLOS is a fairly simple thing, if you can see me I can see you wham bam there we go. Third party opinions are sometimes needed but hey they generaly are anyways.

Funny RAW are models disembark from the valk/vendettas base. Assume its the same with the StormRaven

But buddy was wrong (ref your wave serpent-banshee issue)
If his models heads could draw LOS to any part of your model (not base, hands, feet, weapons, banners) then he could shoot at them.

SO, they didnt agree before hand whether objectives block LOS, and thats the fault of TLOS?

No, thats players who made a mistake. Simple as that

Your second argument is someone fundamentally misunderstanding the LOS rules, and that things are drawn from the "eyes" of models, and must be drawn to specific parts of the model - not the base. Again, very clearly written, and apparently you dont know the rules you're criticising particularly well.

You;re confused because you need to properly read the rules.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Funny RAW are models disembark from the valk/vendettas base. Assume its the same with the StormRaven

Why is that funny?

The Valk/Vendettas/StormRaven would surely fly low and slow to let the troops off, since they are all VTOL aircraft.

So I would be able to shoot an unit disembarked behind a Stormraven without letting them have a cover save from it?

If they are not actually blocked then they dont get a cover save. Same as ever.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If they are not actually blocked then they dont get a cover save. Same as ever.

Exactly correct, If they are not actually obscured by anything you do not get a cover save, since you are not in cover from the point of view of the firing models.

Thought so, just wanted to confirm, thanks a lot.

DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Funny RAW are models disembark from the valk/vendettas base. Assume its the same with the StormRaven

Why is that funny?

The Valk/Vendettas/StormRaven would surely fly low and slow to let the troops off, since they are all VTOL aircraft.

I prefer to think of grav harnesses, or my IG like to Free Rapelle out.

It's funny to me because it is. Clean cut and dry

Or even the fact that you're shooting while the Stormraven is taking off again, because you wouldn't have wanted to risk its guns earlier....

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Well infantry draw LOS from their "eyes" so the base to base you speak of is quite wrong.

And what about units that do not have eyes, i.e. wratihguard/wraithlords. Since TLOS is drawn from eyes, these models would never get to shoot...