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So, this is a gripe I've got about PP, and I don't know if I'm just getting cynical or burning out, but it seems like the PP fluff is sorta taking a nose dive since MKII. More generally, I feel like they should have taken their slogan, "Play like you've got a pair," to heart and written "like they have a pair"

In summary, how I feel about the fluff (not as familiar with Hordes, so not commenting):
Prime: quirky, embraced the pulp fantasy side of things, not the best written, but a sense of loving their little world they were building.

Escalation: starting a real narrative, more writing, not that much better, but a beginning sense of characters. Very heavy narrative, and the interesting idea of a completely narrative linear campaign, which hadn't been done in earnest in years. Still colorful language.

Apotheosis: a very ambitious book, small model release of not all winners, but ambitious pieces. The introduction of epic characters, and some character growth.

Superiority: a bit of a let-down, narratively, except for introducing the Caine/Magnus story, which I think was a very strong part of the world.

FOWM: Pirates: a pleasant suprise, some of the fun of earlier writing but a bit more refined, though unfortunately not introduced to the main story at all.

Legends: a bit predictable, starting towards the MKII trend of very heavily emphasizing model rules (for instance, I swear they describe Deliverers' "inaccurate but powerful rockets" a half-dozen times. I didn't appreciate how Stryker pulled a Batman and recovered from a spinal injury to jump around killing stuff

Forces books: starting to sell models hard: every book heavily features their new casters. I'd say that Strakhov was the only actually entertaining one, because he had a reaction that wasn't purely combat-oriented. Macbain, in particular, I felt, was pandering to the cry for a Steelhead warcaster, which could have worked, if they gave him any ideology to speak of.

Wrath: Not much there. The growing internal disputes were interesting, but at this point, I don't think anyone actually believes warcasters will ever be harmed, so the combat looses its punch, when there's no real threat, and they've dropped most non-combat from the stories, so you're left with something mildly more entertaining than a battle report.


A few specific complaints, in the form of rhetorical questions (feel free to answer them):
how many stories don't use the phrasing "mental command," "mentally ordered," etc? There's no other way to describe that connection?
how many stories don't describe someone's primary feelings as rage/fury/anger (often involving an urge to kill things they don't like), patriotism, and/or scheming?
why have they switched descriptions from character to how they look?
---example: Runewood's character in his story was basically, "he was in sword knight armor and held his helmet under his arm you know, like his picture and model")
why have they cut the balls off of their flavor text? For those curious, look for negative flavor text: it pops up in MKI, but is virtually entirely gone from mkII.
---example: the Lancer entry in MkI was along the lines of "it's a bit clunky, but I'll take a half dozen" (Haley), vs. mkII "it's the most perfect engine of war, gimme more" (also Haley)
---example: the Marauder entry in MKI was along the lines of "I've never heard of such blasphemy, it's a machine designed to destroy walls!" (Khadoran menite priest) to "praise menoth, it's designed to destroy our enemies walls!" (same guy)


Too Long; Didn't Read Am I the only one who has an issue with the shift from quirky pulp fantasy there used to be, to GI-Joe-style hard sell fiction PP is writing now?

edit: typos

I stopped reading the fluff at Superiority... now I don't know if I want to continue. I haven't read the story parts in my Force books yet (I only have Cryx and Skorne), but the fluff in the entries isn't too bad.

I still enjoy reading the fluff. And at the very least there is some kind of story progression going on in them unlike some other games.

I really enjoy their fulff. Unlike other games who have a static worlds or are historically based it seems PP makes an effort to have flavorful characters and a plot that actually progresses the story. I can understand that warcasters not dying could be annoying and perhaps in the future they will. But remember if they kill the main warcasters and remove them from the game they will lose sales. Remember the goal is to sell models having good fluff is a perk for the game i find.

That being said I (perhaps wrongly) assume that the MK2 and Factions Of books provided an opportunity to do a small "reset" of the fluff. Sense things and MK1 were always new now they had the opportunity to rewrite a few things giving the variety of descriptions?

Casper wrote:I really enjoy their fulff. Unlike other games who have a static worlds or are historically based it seems PP makes an effort to have flavorful characters and a plot that actually progresses the story.

I'd argue that the last couple books have been highly static, with action as an illusion of progress.

I can understand that warcasters not dying could be annoying and perhaps in the future they will. But remember if they kill the main warcasters and remove them from the game they will lose sales. Remember the goal is to sell models having good fluff is a perk for the game i find.

A common response, where the flip side is citing all sorts of examples (epics not hurting the sales of primes, though they don't exist any more, or in GW, characters dying or never being in the present not hurting sales)- those are about the two sides of it, and we can both argue 'til we're blue in the face. I stand by my comment that there's never the illusion of danger. The first couple of instances made it seem like a real threat (Haley lost an arm and Deneghra was cut in half), but now it just isn't real. At least in mainstream comics, some recurring characters die, however rarely.

That being said I (perhaps wrongly) assume that the MK2 and Factions Of books provided an opportunity to do a small "reset" of the fluff. Sense things and MK1 were always new now they had the opportunity to rewrite a few things giving the variety of descriptions?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're saying that they took it as an opportunity to ret-con the game, yes, we're agreeing. My complaint is that they took off any edge to the writing when they did so.

spiralingcadaver wrote:
I'd argue that the last couple books have been highly static, with action as an illusion of progress.

I have wanted to, and have not been able to get my hands on any of the earlier books (before MK2). So I'll take you word for it.

A common response, where the flip side is citing all sorts of examples (epics not hurting the sales of primes, though they don't exist any more, or in GW, characters dying or never being in the present not hurting sales)- those are about the two sides of it, and we can both argue 'til we're blue in the face. I stand by my comment that there's never the illusion of danger. The first couple of instances made it seem like a real threat (Haley lost an arm and Deneghra was cut in half), but now it just isn't real. At least in mainstream comics, some recurring characters die, however rarely.

I've only played sense MK 2 so I didn't know that any caster besides Denny had died. I heard that the Harbinger had as well but have no idea when/how. So this is news for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're saying that they took it as an opportunity to ret-con the game, yes, we're agreeing. My complaint is that they took off any edge to the writing when they did so.

We are agreeing here - mostly. See my other posts about lack of reading materials.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Casper wrote:I really enjoy their fulff. Unlike other games who have a static worlds or are historically based it seems PP makes an effort to have flavorful characters and a plot that actually progresses the story.

I'd argue that the last couple books have been highly static, with action as an illusion of progress.

I'd argue against that. Forces of Skorne had Vinter driven out of the Empire, to lead into Wrath where he's returned to Immoren and building a power base/alliance with Feora as build up for the next book.

Following the Nyssor drama, it's the same thing, we've had him change hands 4 times now(Nyss to Morrowan church to Greylords Covenant to Ios) all for a build up to a showdown between Cryx(Goreshade isn't going to let him slip away, hence his approaching Scaverous for an alliance) and the Retribution.

It may seem static because it's slow, but it's evidence of a buildup with minor events to major story events down the road.

There's fluff in warmahordes? O.O

Menoth and legion fluff in the faction books is good to me.


Warcasters not getting harmed ?

Not to mention that Vlad was beaten to an inch of his life by Vindicutus and Baldur was all but dead for two books.

My only complaint with the fluff would be the blatant translation of game abilities.
Many times it feels like the action is just a read thru of a battle report.
They make it stupid obvious what abilities the characters are using.
I dislike that.

There are ways to pretty up the writing.
Plus, I have no issue with a character using a spell in the fluff that is not directly listed on their card.

I for one prefer what the Character can do.. is what he does in the fluff. Not out of reach things.

For example, in 40k a space marine in the fluff can wade through waves of orks and guants.

on the table, he can fall over to 1 of them.

My only issue with the fiction is how it is almost comic book-like in its 'superhero' (warcaster/warlock) centricness.

This makes sense for some factions, like Trolls, where it's a clan structure and dominant personalities will rise to influential leadership positions and everyone being on a first-name-basis seems reasonable. For others though, like Khador's giant faceless blob of a military or Cygnar's relatively large, structured armed forces, it simply seems too trite for every conflict, ever to revolve around the same half a dozen characters.

sourclams wrote:it simply seems too trite for every conflict, ever to revolve around the same half a dozen characters.

The ficition is supposed to focus on them. Stuff happens with out the handful of playable casters always being there and that leaves tons of room for PP to create new Warcasters, Warlocks, Character Units, Solos, etc

I'm still hoping for a Kara's boyfriend to show up as a Trencher Commando Character UA

People also have to take into account that PP is not a publishing company. They are in the business of making models.

Most companies that I can think of that have a "real time" evolving storyline have experienced a dropoff in the quality of the prose at one point or another. L5R comes to mind. It will be interesting to see how Malifaux progresses.

Also, to an extent, the expansion hurts this type of approach. When you intro the nth new caster, the question becomes "where the heck was this schmuck when the fit was hitting the shan last book?" For something still as mysterious as Cryx it is less an issue than someplace like Cygnar which has had pressure on every front.

I still prefer this approach to the one GW does. That "world" is so large that a story or development can be thrown away once its usefulness is done (WHF "Albion") or reused/recycled endlessly (Battle for Armageddon X, Y and Z).

Shotgun wrote:People also have to take into account that PP is not a publishing company. They are in the business of making models.

I really don't think they see it this way. Doug Seacat appears to have a great deal of 'power' crafting the Iron Kingdoms' backstory and his approach to the background appears very consolidated, with events all being tied together within the web of an over-arching narrative, versus (for example) Mat Ward's one-off fluff encounters that are created anew out of yet another branch of his infinitely large and disconnected universe.

Shotgun wrote:People also have to take into account that PP is not a publishing company. They are in the business of making models.

Actually PP started by producing RPG suppliments. Thier first product was an iron kingdoms adventure. So really PP was a Publishing company prior to a minature company.

I believe that they've never been a publishing company, technically, as I don't believe they have the right staff or resources to be deemed one.

It's actually their origins in RPGs that makes their recent trend (of mostly lame writing) so disappointing: their old stuff had its own flaws, but at least it seemed like they loved their setting, rather than were pushing (or pushed) to sell minis.

Honestly, I just want someone to die. Its starting to feel like G.I. Joe where they shoot lasers instead of bullets and no one ever actually goes down. I mean if it has to be legion, I'd say take Rhyas, have her die and then that event makes Saeryn go Epic lol.

KILL SOMEONE DAMNIT!

Epic Saeryn... Well Worth the sacrifice.

I used to be all about the murdering named characters, but now I'm wishing they had just thought ahead and made fewer characters, if they're spineless enough not to kill their cash cows, I mean, characters.

If each faction had 6 warcasters and that was it, and they weren't popping out everywhere to the point where people can't necessarily keep track of "main characters," I imagine fewer people would cry for characters to die.

That would still be 66 "big characters" including minions, mercs (assuming both of those don't get extras for having mini-facitons), and the ret, which, personally, I think is more than enough.

They could have continued with nearly the same rules, take Cygnar for instance:

Kraye is 3rd Caine, taking his reconnaissance role more seriously
Kara is Siege, having decided to take a more subtle approach to killin' fools from afar

etc...

hivemind66 wrote:I mean if it has to be legion, I'd say take Rhyas, have her die and then that event makes Saeryn go Epic lol.

KILL SOMEONE DAMNIT!

Epic Saeryn... Well Worth the sacrifice.

Killing off someone who is universally agreed to be the worst caster in Legion (though still nice in her own right), and using that to fuel Saeryn into going epic... I'm not sure if that's a "sacrifice" at that point.

Though I agree that would certainly be a valid catalyst. My vote for character death is eHaley. I want Denehgra to get her revenge.

I really enjoyed the last couple of years' warmachine story. Legends had a major character in the story and one of the playable factions losing territory along with a few other enjoyable story arcs. The faction books didn't have many meaningful events, but the cygnar, cryx, and skorne books had some moments of relevance. Wrath was a very fast-paced book with a lot of little shifts going on in one book. A faction would win near the beginning of the book and lose it all by the end, a single city was lain siege to twice in the course of the one book.
There has been more action in wrath than some of the older books and I took it as a sign that there are more frequent engagements in western immoren than there were when the war was ramping up in mk1. I do like that the scales of the battles seem varied so you aren't always reading about a grand army/division-scale war.
I will agree that the meaningful changes to characters we play in the game are coming very slow, but I imagine that is intended so they don't write themselves into a corner or make certain game elements inappropriate. That's just something you have to come to terms with when you read any game's background story - they will not write something contradictory to their rules and gameplay.

I've enjoyed the developing storyline, but have also only played since MK2. And really, I am playing and into this game for the game itself and the models. The fluff is a nice extra, but not completely required. As for warcasters dying or not, I don't really care either way. I have no problem playing "dead" characters. I played Eldrad in 40K. I have also seen plenty of 40K "throwback" armies to different eras. Horus Heresy armies are the perfect examples. So I don't see why someone could not have a throwback WM army, either. In alot of ways that is what you are doing with the casters who have gone epic.

The biggest problem I see is if a caster dies then that is a big hit to that community. And there are plenty of people who want to see their faction win or do awesome in the fluff. I think what they would have to do is have a caster who dies and sacrifices themselves to do something awesome. And not Harbringer like and get reincarnated. I think it would be really cool to see a warcaster make the ultimate sacrifice to save their kingdom/race/empire/etc. I think if someone dies it would have to be something like that. You have to give all sides some bragging rights in the fluff and some hits and somethign like that would be a good way to do it.

I read all of the fluff that was in my Prime MkII Rule book and to be honest it was all very bland. The world isn't very alive. The stories that are put into the book are very boring and generic. The fluff overall is not that interesting. The only exception I can think of is the Legion of Everblight. I liked the fluff they made for the forces of Legion book, but it was still sub par when compared to 40k or anything else I've ready in general.

Me are hate reading, me more smash!!!

I always call it the WWF. Characters lead vast armies that fight each
other until the 'casters are left duking it out, one on one.

I don't read the fluff.

I play the game once in a blue moon because it has steam powered robots that beat each other up.

Not because the fluff is epic(fail).

Red Comet wrote:I read all of the fluff that was in my Prime MkII Rule book and to be honest it was all very bland. The world isn't very alive. The stories that are put into the book are very boring and generic. The fluff overall is not that interesting. The only exception I can think of is the Legion of Everblight. I liked the fluff they made for the forces of Legion book, but it was still sub par when compared to 40k or anything else I've ready in general.

See, I always thought the 40K fluff always sounded more like propaganda than actual stories. Whichever codex you have all the fluff makes them sound like superstars and tells stories about how they kick everyone elses rear-end. Like the space marine who took on 100 orcs or whatever. I got tired of the propaganda and appreciate the more story driven fluff of PP. Yeah, the warcasters don't die, but they still get beat up, lose and all in all seem a bit more like real people/characters with motivations more than just 'kill the xenos'.

I also really like some of the political and social backstory in the PP fluff. GW has very little story and not alot about the background and people other than what it takes for them to beat up the next guy. PP seems to have a realistic (albeit fantasy) history to their fluff. To me that makes the make believe world more realistic. As an RPGer I can envision myself in the PP world. Even after playing 40K for over 15 years, reading some of the books and playing some of the video games I still have a hard time really getting a feel for the everyday world.

I guess it just depends on what you like in your fluff. I really like how the Iron Kingdoms fluff plays out and is presented. I am sure that gettign the same stuff year after year can be boring, but at least the story moves forward. 40K fluff never really did.

I think the OP has some fair comments. Just because you’re a fan of something, doesn’t mean that you can’t be critical of it. I don’t think the OP is suffering from burnout here as I have noticed similar things with the fluff (as well as read various in depth fluff discussions on the PP forums). Please note that I’m a fairly new PP fan, having started collecting PP earlier this year and basing my opinions of the fluff on the Mk2 rule book, Wrath and some early copies of No Quarter.

The writing does seem like it’s losing its lethality (when comparing the earlier pieces with the latter). Every warcaster always seems to always come out unscathed from a battle, no matter the opponent or injury (Karchev doesn’t count because that is a cliff hanger). Just like Star Trek, you always know that X character is always going to survive unless they are a nameless red shirt equivalent. I think this is one of the reasons why PP needs to do something bold with their next warmachine book and either a)perma kill a warcaster or b)dramatically progress the story in some other fashion.

candy.man wrote:I think the OP has some fair comments. Just because you’re a fan of something, doesn’t mean that you can’t be critical of it. I don’t think the OP is suffering from burnout here as I have noticed similar things with the fluff (as well as read various in depth fluff discussions on the PP forums). Please note that I’m a fairly new PP fan, having started collecting PP earlier this year and basing my opinions of the fluff on the Mk2 rule book, Wrath and some early copies of No Quarter.

The writing does seem like it’s losing its lethality (when comparing the earlier pieces with the latter). Every warcaster always seems to always come out unscathed from a battle, no matter the opponent or injury (Karchev doesn’t count because that is a cliff hanger). Just like Star Trek, you always know that X character is always going to survive unless they are a nameless red shirt equivalent. I think this is one of the reasons why PP needs to do something bold with their next warmachine book and either a)perma kill a warcaster or b)dramatically progress the story in some other fashion.

I agree, though which Caster to perma kill is the question. Now, they could progress the Magnus/Cain story in which Magnus unveils the true Heir to the throne and causes a civil war. A civil war in Cygnar would set up a great story line.