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can someone explain this to me.

i cant understand just how a race devoted to wiping out all biological entities and harvesting their escence can team up with one.
i mean fluff wise...

so yeah please can someone explain that?

matt ward

master of ordinance wrote:can someone explain this to me.

i cant understand just how a race devoted to wiping out all biological entities and harvesting their escence can team up with one.
i mean fluff wise...

so yeah please can someone explain that?

Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

Kanluwen wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:can someone explain this to me.

i cant understand just how a race devoted to wiping out all biological entities and harvesting their escence can team up with one.
i mean fluff wise...

so yeah please can someone explain that?

Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

No. Matt Ward.

If you're going to post useless drivel, at least come up with something clever.

master of ordinance wrote:can someone explain this to me.

i cant understand just how a race devoted to wiping out all biological entities and harvesting their escence can team up with one.
i mean fluff wise...

so yeah please can someone explain that?

Because if you read the story they don't team up. They just choose not to fight a war on two sides and instead choose to spend all their available resources fighting the more immediate threat. After the tyranids are defeated both sides are too spent to continue the military campaign, and both withdraw. The tyranids beat both up to such an extent that to continue the fight would mean certain death.

These are basic factors of strategy. Its the same as any 3 way fight. You sit back while the other two duke it out and you deal with the winner. That costs you far less resources than jumping into the middle. Both the blood angels and the necrons adopted this strategy, while the tyranids being the larger army chose not to. Before the tyranids showed up both sides had already spent a lot of their fighting power against each other and were effectively at a stalemate. They both hoped the tyranids would wipe out the other army, but that didn't quite happen and by the end either side was too worn to continue so both made a tactical retreat instead of wasting more resources in what would be a risky gamble.

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to post useless drivel, at least come up with something clever.

Kanluwen wrote:
Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

Seriously though.

Y'Know, it's not drivel, it really IS Matt Ward. Necrons have never been that two dimensional. If you delve deeper you find the wonderful world of Necron fluff. Look up C'Tan on lexicanum.

Why the heck would the Tyranids invade a tomb world? There is almost no biomass. Why would the Necrons want to fight the Tyranids? They have no souls. Riddle me this: In the event that they would battle, why would the Necrons not turn on the BA? In the end, it's just the Necrons for the Necrons, they will do what their programming, and it says get souls. A bunch of BA could never stand up to a tomb world, even a damaged one, and they repair anyways. Oh wait, Matt Ward is turning everyone into space marines. Bye bye xenos, there is only space marines.

its not just the necrons, i mean BA allowing an enemy of mankind go away cause they fought together, SM are hypo indocrinated to hate the xenos and such and the BA a chapter known for their seal to the emperor do that

and the necrons their goal is to serve the C´tan and harvest the living beings not being best friends with them

in short is Matt Ward

Because if you read the story they don't team up. They just choose not to fight a war on two sides and instead choose to spend all their available resources fighting the more immediate threat. After the tyranids are defeated both sides are too spent to continue the military campaign, and both withdraw. The tyranids beat both up to such an extent that to continue the fight would mean certain death.

Well said. Whilst I didnt agree with the piece of fluff as it stood, the vitriol kicked up over it was on par with the horrendous rape and violation of the Sacred Sisters in the GK book.
In short, misread fluff leading to thouroughly overblown nonsense.

Mustela wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to post useless drivel, at least come up with something clever.

Kanluwen wrote:
Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

Seriously though.

Y'Know, it's not drivel, it really IS Matt Ward. Necrons have never been that two dimensional. If you delve deeper you find the wonderful world of Necron fluff. Look up C'Tan on lexicanum.

I've dug into the world of Necron fluff. I have the codex sitting next to me, in fact. There is nothing in there that is really compelling.

Why the heck would the Tyranids invade a tomb world? There is almost no biomass.

You're aware that Tomb Worlds aren't necessarily barren rocks right?
There have been a few mentions of worlds that were huge agricultural worlds, before a Tomb reawakened.

Why would the Necrons want to fight the Tyranids? They have no souls.

Why do the Necrons or Tyranids have to have souls for one or the other to fight?
Necrons will attack anyone who invades their Tomb Worlds...provided the Necrons themselves are awakened.

What does Riddle me this: In the event that they would battle, why would the Necrons not turn on the BA? In the end, it's just the Necrons for the Necrons, they will do what their programming, and it says get souls.

Why would they turn on the Blood Angels if they're fighting miles away from each other?
And Lords are gaining independence. Sentience. The C'Tan are taking a backseat, finally, to the Necrontyr proper.
The C'tan being ingame was always a stupid decision. They had no business being there, it's like the Emperor being fieldable.

A bunch of BA could never stand up to a tomb world, even a damaged one, and they repair anyways.

First off: Necrons don't repair instantaneously. It takes hours, if not days, depending on the amount of damage.
Damage from things like Meltaguns or Plasma Guns/Cannons can outright destroy the Necrontyr however disallowing them a chance to reform.

Oh wait, Matt Ward is turning everyone into space marines. Bye bye xenos, there is only space marines.

Like Necrons have never essentially been space marines, right?

didnt tyranids avoid contact with the necrons? changing their course if they find them? they would avoid a tomb world right?

The only thing we've seen is that they avoid Tomb Worlds where there is actually an awakened Necron presence.

In my opinion. The necrons developed common sense aside from their otherwise genocidal approach to everything....

flota wrote:didnt tyranids avoid contact with the necrons? changing their course if they find them? they would avoid a tomb world right?

Exactly, the C'Tan god the outsider, they hive fleets avoid his realm in the void.

@ Kanluwen

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. We could get into a huge fluff argument, but we'll both end up dumber for it. So I will not write a giant post taking each part of your argument and trying to invalidate it, as it will end up as these kind of arguments always do - entirely subjective.

*EDIT: I canut spel rite.

genocidals machines dont got common sense
they were in ther home they could repeair themselves after battle.

but im not going to write a wall to argue
mustela is right everyone got the opinion, even if the fluff sucks

Like said before, they are becoming sentient, and they do have some form of strategic intelligence.

Interwebs take everything out of context? NO WAI!

flota wrote:i mean BA allowing an enemy of mankind go away cause they fought together

That's not the primary reason given. It's a short extra, gesturing at the nobility of the Blood Angels; the passage overall pretty much says that had the Blood Angels had an advantage they'd have continued the assault. Rather than simply sacrifice his valuable troops and his own experience, he chose not continue the battle. Considering he's supposed to be a military genius, is that really so far-fetched?

Mustela wrote:
Exactly, the C'Tan god the outsider, they hive fleets avoid his realm in the void.

Avoiding a Dyson Sphere (that is what he's inside, right? And they'd be lifeless, presumably?) is different from avoiding a planet. The Tyranids would likely attack a Tomb World with sufficient biomass on it, and besides, it's not even said that it was on a Tomb World. It was on a moon, right?

Matt Ward's fluff is actually pretty good. I'd highly encourage people to actually reading it before they hop on the haterade train. I too used to just assume it was bad until I started reading it.

Bandwagoners will obviously hate most of it because 9 out of 10 haven't actually read the fluff. The fluff wasn't about fist bumping, it was a fight between two enemies that ended when a third enemy rolled up.

As a matter of fact, the perspective of the Necrons is never really given. It just says both were too battleworn to continue fighting each other. It highlights how the Blood Angels would find the idea of fighting against those they had fought alongside distasteful, but that isn't uncommon for Space Marines to have respect for battle prowess, they have always had a warrior mentality. About the only enemy Space Marines have zero compassion and respect for is Chaos.

Also, the alliance wasn't some ring combining power either, it was described as impromptu, meaning they were shooting at each other, Nids began falling from the sky and then they shifted fire toward the Nids.

I've read the codex cover to cover more than once. I'm an unabashed BA fanboi. The Necron BA bromance is 111 words long (+\- 10%) and could have been left out all together. In that short paragraph more than just shooting at the same foe is implied. There is a 'final battle' which means more than one, there had to have been an actual albeit temporary cooperation to combine strategery. That's how I see it. Still 100 words the codex could have just don't without.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Matt Ward's fluff is actually pretty good.

No, it's not.

I've read every codex Ward has put out for 40k besides the new Sisters WD update, his fluff is not good, and even the decent or pretty good concepts are weighed down by Ward being a bad writer.

This particular piece of fluff is overblown though, it's not as bad as the online neckbeards would have people believe.

Kanluwen wrote:Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

"Evolving"? I believe the word you were looking for is "retcon".

Void__Dragon wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Matt Ward's fluff is actually pretty good.

No, it's not.

I've read every codex Ward has put out for 40k besides the new Sisters WD update, his fluff is not good, and even the decent or pretty good concepts are weighed down by Ward being a bad writer.

This particular piece of fluff is overblown though, it's not as bad as the online neckbeards would have people believe.

Then maybe, just maybe, they should talk to the editors and overseers who are involved with okaying the final product.

But hey, clearly it's better to just blame the writer.

Kanluwen wrote:Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

"Evolving"? I believe the word you were looking for is "retcon".

Not really. A retcon would imply that there was enough information to make any kind of real decision upon, or that it departs radically from the "way things were".

It really doesn't, since one of the 'visions' we get mention of in the Necron codex is of Necrons herding humanity for labor. That doesn't work so great when you're "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

Kanluwen wrote:
You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/389529.page

The main point is Kan that lot of people love Necrons just the way they are: scary, mysterious robots wanting to wipe out all living things.
Suddenly change of heart, the fact that C'Tans are slaves to them, that Necrons Lords are fighting each-other for dominance, the fact of alliance with organics...makes them a little.....boring in y opinion. ( no more marching army of doom but just regular alien scum to purge...nothing new )

And P.S. - M.W. fluff really is bad as Chinese merchandise . What use is that he write solid rules when his fluff is off the scale in some points.

I want smarter necrons to be honest. Walking space zombies are already covered by Nurgle I want more from them a Walking sentient metal mummy where their gods have forsaken them would be cool.
I want someone to kill the last C'tan and get rid of their overpowered fluff.

Kanluwen wrote:Then maybe, just maybe, they should talk to the editors and overseers who are involved with okaying the final product.

But hey, clearly it's better to just blame the writer.

Only a fool doesn't follow a clear pattern. It is no coincidence that Ward's codices are the ones that tend to have the worst writing (Not necessarily the worst fluff), unless he has his own personal editors and overseers who edit only his work... Well, it's his fault.

Not really. A retcon would imply that there was enough information to make any kind of real decision upon, or that it departs radically from the "way things were".

It really doesn't, since one of the 'visions' we get mention of in the Necron codex is of Necrons herding humanity for labor. That doesn't work so great when you're "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

There was enough information to depart from the original information.

That you chose to ignore it is the fault of nobody but yourself.

Though I will admit, the Necron codex did not elaborate enough on the actual sentient Necrons. Necron Lords and Immortals have always been sentient. Flayed Ones as well.

But they were also subserviant to the C'tan willingly, something the new fluff apparently is changing. Were they singular in purpose/motive? Yes, but that's not inherently a bad thing, nor is that actually changing, like you seem to believe. Oh, and they didn't just "kill kill kill," considering... Well you actually just answered yourself, they harvest, they kill, as well as abduct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:I want smarter necrons to be honest. Walking space zombies are already covered by Nurgle I want more from them a Walking sentient metal mummy where their gods have forsaken them would be cool.
I want someone to kill the last C'tan and get rid of their overpowered fluff.

They were already under sentient leadership, and the C'tan are no more overpowered than the other deities in the setting and at least have the decency to be locked away or starved (Though they should never have been brought to the tabletop).

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then maybe, just maybe, they should talk to the editors and overseers who are involved with okaying the final product.

But hey, clearly it's better to just blame the writer.

Only a fool doesn't follow a clear pattern. It is no coincidence that Ward's codices are the ones that tend to have the worst writing (Not necessarily the worst fluff), unless he has his own personal editors and overseers who edit only his work... Well, it's his fault.

Everything gets signed off on by the same editors and overseers. The Codex release schedule is such that there is no possible excuse for editors not catching these things.

Not really. A retcon would imply that there was enough information to make any kind of real decision upon, or that it departs radically from the "way things were".

It really doesn't, since one of the 'visions' we get mention of in the Necron codex is of Necrons herding humanity for labor. That doesn't work so great when you're "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

There was enough information to depart from the original information.

That you chose to ignore it is the fault of nobody but yourself.

No, there really wasn't. There's Imperials hinting at the Necrontyr being a force to snuff all life out of the stars, etc, etc. There's nothing 100%, and I should also add that in the Eye of Terror campaign more fluff was given about the Necrons.

And guess what?
Even then, the Necrons were ignoring Imperial forces when there's a greater foe present. Necron forces actually fought in the same kind of circumstances that we saw with the Blood Angels alongside of the Cadian 8th. They never made actual contact between the two forces, but hey...you know how it goes.
*blame Matt Ward!*

Though I will admit, the Necron codex did not elaborate enough on the actual sentient Necrons. Necron Lords and Immortals have always been sentient. Flayed Ones as well.

Flayed Ones, Pariahs, Lords, Immortals, and Destroyers have always had a kind of 'sentience'. Even Wraiths are supposed to have a sentience on par with most Orks.

But they were also subserviant to the C'tan willingly, something the new fluff apparently is changing.

That's not entirely true. The Lords and Immortals gave themselves over willingly, but the Warriors and more have been mentioned as possibly forced against their wills.

Were they singular in purpose/motive? Yes, but that's not inherently a bad thing, nor is that actually changing, like you seem to believe.

The Wraiths and Flayed Ones are being portrayed as 'depraved and sick' individuals who've lost all touch of their sanity.

Oh, and they didn't just "kill kill kill," considering... Well you actually just answered yourself, they harvest, they kill, as well as abduct.

Every piece of fluff where a C'Tan has been involved, it's "kill kill kill".

When we've seen Lords operating by themselves, the Necrons have far far more interesting agendas.

Void__Dragon wrote:
They were already under sentient leadership, and the C'tan are no more overpowered than the other deities in the setting and at least have the decency to be locked away or starved (Though they should never have been brought to the tabletop).

that is my primary complaint they should of never been brought to the table top I HATE them.
They are very unnecessary they should be just removed from the tabletop game and just mentioned in lore and thats it. they are living gods they do not need to be on the table top. Maybe some bonuses or something i don't know just make some of the Necron Lords have more of a personality.

Kanluwen wrote:Everything gets signed off on by the same editors and overseers. The Codex release schedule is such that there is no possible excuse for editors not catching these things.

That they allowed it to happen is not excusable on their part, yes. But that just shows a depressing lack of interest in the quality of their fluff.

That doesn't change Ward being a bad writer, so when Ward writes something bad, I'm going to call him a bad writier.

No, there really wasn't. There's Imperials hinting at the Necrontyr being a force to snuff all life out of the stars, etc, etc. There's nothing 100%, and I should also add that in the Eye of Terror campaign more fluff was given about the Necrons.

And guess what?
Even then, the Necrons were ignoring Imperial forces when there's a greater foe present. Necron forces actually fought in the same kind of circumstances that we saw with the Blood Angels alongside of the Cadian 8th. They never made actual contact between the two forces, but hey...you know how it goes.
*blame Matt Ward!*

Calm down. If you ever actually read my post, you would know that I find the Blood Angels and Necrons fighting against the Tyranids to be overblown by the internet. I am well aware that Necrons can and have ignored a smaller foe to deal with a weaker one, and this isn't the first time the Necrons have done so against the Tyranids actually. They destroyed a splinter fleet that the Tau were fighting when a Tomb World, the moon above the planet, woke. Of course, they then harvested the Tau, but them not attempting to do so against the Blood Angels is excused by the heavy losses they took. They phased out. This is fine.

But yes, there was, you already cited an example of the C'tan keeping sentients alive, because if everything dies, the food is gone.

Flayed Ones, Pariahs, Lords, Immortals, and Destroyers have always had a kind of 'sentience'. Even Wraiths are supposed to have a sentience on par with most Orks.

Saying Destroyers would be redundant. A Destroyer is just an Immortal welded into a Destroyer base. Pariahs are also technically not Necrons, but you are right.

Admittedly, I don't recall the Wraiths ever being sentient, mind telling me where you got that from?

That's not entirely true. The Lords and Immortals gave themselves over willingly, but the Warriors and more have been mentioned as possibly forced against their wills.

If I recall correctly, it specifically states that some were forced against their wills. But the Warriors actually are not sentient, not even in 5e.

The Wraiths and Flayed Ones are being portrayed as 'depraved and sick' individuals who've lost all touch of their sanity.

Okay? What's your point?

Every piece of fluff where a C'Tan has been involved, it's "kill kill kill".

When we've seen Lords operating by themselves, the Necrons have far far more interesting agendas.

Yeah like the Deceiver seeding humanity with the Pariah Gene. Ohwait that's not "kill kill kill" is it? The Outsider prefers spreading insanity and madness, and feeding on it, allowing its prey a seed of hope to prolong their torment. The Deceiver likes to have its ego satiated, and worshipped as a god (And one bit of fluff goes over it periodically visiting a planet so he could do just that, only slaughtering the species when they fell out of favor with it), twisting the minds of its mortal slaves so that they believe they are heading to a better place ("Home" the codex calls it), when they are just being devoured. The Void Dragon apparently desires to have great forges created and slave operated, only feeding when a slave can toil no more. Even the Nightbringer doesn't just kill, it only does so when its slaves reach the peak of their horror.

Each C'tan has a different modus operandi, and before 5e, the "different agendas" of the Lords were nothing more but the instructions of the C'tan.

If we really wanted to get down to bad writing, I'd say the IG codex or Space Wolves would easily take he cake for best of the worst.

Wolfy Von Wolfen Wulfgard of Wolfenten was really meh.

The IGs fluff in the dex was also too bazooka joe-ish for my taste.

While people may get angry at Matt Ward, the guy makes decent fluff and fantasic codexes imo.

The key problem I think most people run into is his tendency to just go that extra inch to far. Draigo trapped in the warp, totally fine. There are people, planets, and all sorts of other things trapped in there forever. Draigo running around killing daemons of the warp, little odd But it's saved as they all come back. So this part, while odd, is self balancing. Carving a predecessor's name into a Primarch? No, Primarchs were gods among men and one was said to have unimaginable strength. For one man a single one was impossible to best, for a small army, a formidable foe.

Concerning Necrons and BA. Fighting eachother in a large war, acceptable for both fanboys. It's a newly awakened Tombworld which is why the Necrons didn't decimate them and BA didn't send down an entire chapter to end the Necrons which seems to be what is commonly called for, or at least several companies. Where it gets weird is not the ignoring of eachother to fight off the 'nids, though this fact is slightly odd, it;s the lack of continued fighting afterwards that gets people. Necrons are on a Tombworld, until it blows up they are Not out of resources. The BA would have been reinforced during the Nid/Necron conflict I'm Sure and therefor should have been ripped and roaring to continue the fight with them just as soon as the 'Nids were gone

Mustela wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to post useless drivel, at least come up with something clever.

Kanluwen wrote:
Necrons are evolving, fluffwise.

You'll get the typical smartass answer of "because matt ward", but really it's about fething time the Necrons became something more than "Kill! Kill! Kill!".

Seriously though.

Y'Know, it's not drivel, it really IS Matt Ward. Necrons have never been that two dimensional. If you delve deeper you find the wonderful world of Necron fluff. Look up C'Tan on lexicanum.

Why the heck would the Tyranids invade a tomb world? There is almost no biomass. Why would the Necrons want to fight the Tyranids? They have no souls. Riddle me this: In the event that they would battle, why would the Necrons not turn on the BA? In the end, it's just the Necrons for the Necrons, they will do what their programming, and it says get souls. A bunch of BA could never stand up to a tomb world, even a damaged one, and they repair anyways. Oh wait, Matt Ward is turning everyone into space marines. Bye bye xenos, there is only space marines.

The answer, quite simply, is that Necrons are getting retooled to have souls, and that apparently they overthrew the C'tan sometime in the last ten years. Of course, this is all written by Matt Ward, so yeah, it really IS Matt Ward. But at least he's not being a complete dumbass about it, and realizes he can't have his way without having to rework all the Necron's stuff.