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I've been struggling lately with how to make my Angels Encarmine the most efficient. First, lets start with my two biggest observations on Blood Angels in the tournament scene.

They are quite popular in all list builds. (i.e. DoA, Mech, or hybrid)

They never seem to be a top tier army.

Now, of the three types of most popular builds, the mech or hybrid usually sits atop. The most appetizing unit in the codex is directed towards any rhino variant vehicle as they are fast and can move an shoot with great efficiency. You think this mechanic mixed with the Blood Angels capability (or semi-capable?) of close combat would equal winning, but that never seems to be the case. What factors into these losses?

After giving up on DoA and the Stormraven, most of my builds have been around Razorbacks, Preds, Dreads, and Vindicators. Has anyone had tremendous success with Blood Angels in the tournament scene? With what units?

Well, I play DoA and it appears that this kind of army is not top tier. The situation seems to be different with an MSU BA army based on Razorbacks and Rhinos. I remember that at NovaCon 2010, a mech BA army became 2nd. A notorious mech BA player is Mercer, a nice guy who will surely find his way to this thread.

Firstly it depends on points of the tournament.
Then you have to look at how many Grey Knight armies start a competition compared to the number of Blood Angels: if everything is equal you would not expect so many BA winners, on a side note Black templars and Deathwing seem to do disproportionately well - though I guess only the hard core take them.

Jawaballs has had success with Blood Angels though he seems to mellowed out a little.

Have you looked around at statistics from tournaments then I would say all 5th edition codices except tyranids are pretty much equal with the two latest DE and GK having more entries and clueless opponents. Orks, BT and DA seem to be up there with the rest of 5th edition.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I play DoA and it appears that this kind of army is not top tier. The situation seems to be different with an MSU BA army based on Razorbacks and Rhinos. I remember that at NovaCon 2010, a mech BA army became 2nd. A notorious mech BA player is Mercer, a nice guy who will surely find his way to this thread.

Right, but what makes it different? The more obvious answer here is more firepower, but it always seems to never be enough.

MFletch wrote:Firstly it depends on points of the tournament.
Then you have to look at how many Grey Knight armies start a competition compared to the number of Blood Angels: if everything is equal you would not expect so many BA winners, on a side note Black templars and Deathwing seem to do disproportionately well - though I guess only the hard core take them.

I would agree with it depending on points. Marine armies seem to struggle more at higher points, in my experience around 2000+. Probably because every other army can get their guns and units much cheaper and at that point level the ratio just becomes out of control.

MFletch wrote:Have you looked around at statistics from tournaments then I would say all 5th edition codices except tyranids are pretty much equal with the two latest DE and GK having more entries and clueless opponents. Orks, BT and DA seem to be up there with the rest of 5th edition.

Not sure how this is relevant. Maybe it pertains to my first observation? However, yes I agree all armies tend to have themselves represented at tournaments. This is especially true at GTs, but at the smaller RTTs, this isn't always true.

I feel like two thing are very important to consider when I have been building and re-building lists lately.

Psykers for offense and defense

Long range firepower

The first is because GKs are so prevalent, and if you can't stop their powers you can get seriously hosed. As for the offense, I have been messing around with Fear of Darkness and have found it to be quite useful. Many of the powerhouse close combat units out there are not fearless, which can buy some time to whittle them down with firepower before (or if at all) they make it into assault.

Second, Blood Angels have lots of 24" range, but they can definitely opt out of that category and take some serious long range firepower. This can be taken in the form of predators and razorbacks, but as I have previously stated it just never seems to be enough.

Right, but what makes it different? The more obvious answer here is more firepower, but it always seems to never be enough.

Not only. Look at a mech BA army facing a mech Eldar army. I'd deploy the BA army in the centre and use the speed of the tanks to push the fast Eldar tanks into the corners (one corner if the enemy doesn't split). The Eldar tanks will never get out of this unless they have star engines. For this, you need smoke and cover in a frog leaping mode so that one fraction of your tanks shots the enemy while the rest gives cover saves. This works with BA but not with any other loyal chapter.

wuestenfux wrote:

Right, but what makes it different? The more obvious answer here is more firepower, but it always seems to never be enough.

Not only. Look at a mech BA army facing a mech Eldar army. I'd deploy the BA army in the centre and use the speed of the tanks to push the fast Eldar tanks into the corners (one corner if the enemy doesn't split). The Eldar tanks will never get out of this unless they have star engines. For this, you need smoke and cover in a frog leaping mode so that one fraction of your tanks shots the enemy while the rest gives cover saves. This works with BA but not with any other loyal chapter.

I haven't played leap frog in many, many years I like the idea of this, I usually rely on Shield of Sang. to protect but that +1 to the die roll could be all the difference. I will definitely consider this tactic in my next few games.

So after this post it is not only the addition of firepower, but the maneuverability and firepower in synergy. I have known this, but yet I still can't fathom why this is mounting up to a win for the BAs.

@Wuestenfux: wie gehts?

@Wuestenfux: wie gehts?

Gut geht's. Grüße nach Brentwood.

In fact, maneuverability and firepower are two features of mech BA army. No other loyal chapter has Rhinos, Razorbacks, Vindicators and Predators (even Whirlwinds) as fast tanks

Haha, I was told to say that by my significant other. I noticed you were from Hamburg, and she used to live there in her earlier life.

So when it comes down to it, I have the right idea and I just need to apply it better?

I guess what I want to hear, is why aren't these type of armies winning? What is the rock that is so solid that it is inevitably crushing my scissors? What solutions can I apply better that can further my advancement up the ranks?

Haha, I was told to say that by my significant other. I noticed you were from Hamburg, and she used to live there in her earlier life.

Okay, I understand. She lived in Hamburg. Not the same as living in Cal but its fine.

So when it comes down to it, I have the right idea and I just need to apply it better?

Well, synergy is key as in the above example against mech Eldar. Mercer seems to have good success with mech spam BA.

J Mac wrote:

I feel like two thing are very important to consider when I have been building and re-building lists lately.

Psykers for offense and defense

Long range firepower

For the first item, you have access to Mephiston and cheap Librarians with excellent powers. You can also field Librarian Furiosos to increase your coverage. BA Probably have the third best powers after GK and Eldar.
For the second item you have the same tanks that all marines have but faster. And cheaper razorbacks to support your guns. I'm a huge fan of predators in the heavy support role w/autocannon main and lascannon sposnons. You can take Las/plas razors or twin linked las razors to supplement this firepower.

What armies in particular are you having trouble with? IG is usually a pain for Mech marines, but other than that BA have a lot of advantages against most other armies.

Don't forget Space Wolves off that list of powers! They are very powerful with their Jaws and Living Lightning. I would agree with you though about BAs having access to a plethora of psykers and have shifted my way of list building to include nearly 4 psykers (Meph, Libby, and two F. Libbys), but can't help to think it is overkill. Thoughts on this?

Dok wrote:

What armies in particular are you having trouble with? IG is usually a pain for Mech marines, but other than that BA have a lot of advantages against most other armies.

Dark Eldar really tear me apart, those hollow fields (i think that is what reduces my range 6", correct me if I'm wrong) really take a lot out of my Vindis. Dark lances really cut through my AV13 making it slightly easier for them. They are fast, which doesn't give me much of an advantage there.

Grey Knights also have been very difficult. Especially in kill points, they have nearly a 1/3 to a 1/4 the amount of mine. They are also tough as nails!

Night shields are the ones that reduce the range. But if they are spending enough points to put night shields on everything then that cuts down on the number of guns they have to punch your tanks.
It sounds like you are playing a somewhat short ranged army with furiosos and vindicators. Maybe you should diversify a bit? 2 furioso libs, meph, a libby and vindicators is almost half of a 2k point army. Try to expand on your heavy support slots to a little more long ranged. You can try Land speeder typhoons as well as they are super maneuverable and are not priority targets for your enemy.

Yea, I was thinking that was the route to go. Two vindicators can deal out some serious damage, and at a 36" range too.

Typhoons seem plausible, cheap and I could see that it definitely wouldn't be priority one. However, I do not own any landspeeder models :( I'll have to do some proxying to see if they're worth it. Unless anyone out there has had some experience they would like to share...

Hey jon.

Yeah, dok has it. Having threats at every range is a big advantage. Typhoons are amazing little units. I've been singing their praises since 5th ed came out. We've seen the meta shift away from the MM/HF variant that was so popular to the typhoon becaise that cheap firepower at long range makes them both survivable and deadly. Plus they're fast, which means objective grabs late game. 48" range means even with night shields, you still out range de with night shields. That is why missile wolves tends to beat de, they bet past flicker with volume and night shields with range.

It is weird that you see so many ba players, and yet rarely see them win tournaments.

Doa ia good against static armies like ig or razorspam. They work against weak assault armies or other marines, but they get rofl stomped by anything better in assault like bugs, de or especially daemons.

Mech ba is top tier, imo. You can roll lots of mobile, fast scoring units that can shoot well, and fight well enough in combat. You have fast dreads for assault and added firepower, and you have fast vindies and preds for range. Plus, meph for assault, anti psyker and just general boss like behaivor.

I think the the key is to find your sweet spot between those units. A good assault element. Lots of mobile scoring options, and ranged firpower. That gives you the tools you need to fight a wide range of opponents and win games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry for all the typos, I wrote that on my phone.

Reecius wrote:It is weird that you see so many ba players, and yet rarely see them win tournaments.

I think this is because BA isn't as easy to win with razorspam as people seem to think it is. You really have to run a more synergistic list to be really successful. You need an assault element and a shooty element to back that up as you advance the field.
People seem to assume you can spam razorbacks and win but it seems every army is optimized to kill razorbacks. BA have a lot of tools to work with. You have to pick up the tools that work well for you and well together.

Hmmm... I recently have the question of how to run my Furioso dreads in a mech build, should I pod them at the enemy for disruption, make them librarians so they can fly and shield or just run them behind my wall of vehicles as a counter charge element.

Pod sounds good, but the drop pod assault rule is rather problematic, that and they might just whiff their shots and get blow up by melta.
Libby makes it expensive and loses all the upgrade options, also cant take Talons which I really like.
Walking them sounds good cause I have lots of vehicle screen, but they would be rather slow to keep up in an army of fast vehicles.

If you would really want to run a dread in a mech list, i think the furioso libby is the way to go. Its fast enough to keep up with wings, and you can kit it out in a variety of ways to suit a role you need. Might for assault role, FoD for a support role, and Lance for a shooty role.

DPs work in two ways, imo. Just one or a ton. Just one can be very problematic, especially since everyone knows that our dreads can dish out some SERIOUS damage. You would need some other aplha threats to give your opponent options and increase survivability. Baal preds are great for this with their scout move and flamestorm cannon.

Reecius, thanks for a solid outlook on it. I'll def be working on those 3 key tools to find a good sweet spot.

I am having a lot of success with my Mech-Fear list.

The basic premise is lots of AV13 threats, Razorspam, and 5 Librarians. The 3 Vindicators are a huge fire magnet. So are the 3 Baals. This allows me to manuever around with my Razors for optimal shooting. My Librarians are all running with Shield and Fear. I spam fear to cause units to break, and keep targeting them to run them off the board.

I am going to add a couple of Drop Pods, more as roadblocks to enemy movement, they need to spend a round destroying the Droppods to move thru them, and then need to make difficult terrain tests if they are destroyed. Or else they block the path.

I find that while BA can be decent in CC, if my squads disembark, it is for two reasons, they got their transport shot out from under them, or they need to melta something big. Being MSU, and only 5 man squads, they are best safe and inside.

Sounds expensive, how many points is this? 2250?

I won ard boyz peliminarys with blood angels in my area, and they allways place well in local tourny's. The problem with grey knights is most competitive knight builds have a lot of I6 halberds and can pop armour easily and outshoot anyone at 24 inches. Most blood angels army are close range armies so when you can't outshoot and can't out assault we have a bad day. Space wolves I find a dead even match and skill and dice make the difference.

doubled wrote:I won ard boyz peliminarys with blood angels in my area, and they allways place well in local tourny's. The problem with grey knights is most competitive knight builds have a lot of I6 halberds and can pop armour easily and outshoot anyone at 24 inches. Most blood angels army are close range armies so when you can't outshoot and can't out assault we have a bad day. Space wolves I find a dead even match and skill and dice make the difference.

Congratulations!
BA can be played in a counter-strike fashion, with many AV13 vehicles and some Assault Termies or DC Marines for counter-charge.

Well, against GK we arent completely outmatched, our vehicles are fast and generally have more long range weapons than they do. Psyrifles should be taken out quickly.
In CC, unfortunately GK does better with their force weapons everywhere and sometimes those silly grenades. But if you can hit them with assault termies, blood talon furiosos you should be gold.

Last time I poped a Storm Raven, then assault the squad inside with a Furioso, it did like 18 wounds and wipe the squad before the hammers can even go. Leaving a GM standing there which gets killed a turn later.

This is my Blood Angels list:

Blood Angels "Wing Striker" - 2,000 points

HQ

Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun
Honour Guard w/ Razorback 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite

1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Vindicator

Total: 2,000

I'm not a huge tournament player or competitive player, but I do like to use the right stuff in game. I can tell you now (after playing both) that mech Angels is far better and competitive than DoA.

My Angels can deal with hordes thanks to the Vindicators, flamers and Assault Marines themselves. It can deal with mech thanks to lascannons, melta and Vindicators. It can deal with elite army thanks to all the AP2 fire power and also monstrous creatures.

The list has survivabiliy thanks to shield from the double Librarians and feel no pain from the Priests.

It can be played aggressive and get up in your face quickly or play defensive and wait for you to come close or move away from slower units.

I hope that gives you some ideas.

Jackster wrote:Well, against GK we arent completely outmatched, our vehicles are fast and generally have more long range weapons than they do. Psyrifles should be taken out quickly.
In CC, unfortunately GK does better with their force weapons everywhere and sometimes those silly grenades. But if you can hit them with assault termies, blood talon furiosos you should be gold.

Last time I poped a Storm Raven, then assault the squad inside with a Furioso, it did like 18 wounds and wipe the squad before the hammers can even go. Leaving a GM standing there which gets killed a turn later.

I very strongly discourage people charging their dreads into a squad with halberds and a librarian. Halberds give them initiative and the librarian with might of titan to give them 2D6 penetration which will wreck your face, especially after they get 3 or 4 hammerhands off.

mercer wrote:This is my Blood Angels list:

Blood Angels "Wing Striker" - 2,000 points

HQ

Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun
Honour Guard w/ Razorback 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite

1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Vindicator

Total: 2,000

I'm not a huge tournament player or competitive player, but I do like to use the right stuff in game. I can tell you now (after playing both) that mech Angels is far better and competitive than DoA.

My Angels can deal with hordes thanks to the Vindicators, flamers and Assault Marines themselves. It can deal with mech thanks to lascannons, melta and Vindicators. It can deal with elite army thanks to all the AP2 fire power and also monstrous creatures.

The list has survivabiliy thanks to shield from the double Librarians and feel no pain from the Priests.

It can be played aggressive and get up in your face quickly or play defensive and wait for you to come close or move away from slower units.

I hope that gives you some ideas.

Definitiely gave me some things to think about, interesting list as well. I love how you incorporated vindis as I love them and want to find a way to make them work.

I have yet to see a list use might of titan, they rely on thunder hammers due to always str 8, str 10 if hammerhands goes off. When you are penning any vehicle in the game with a 4+ at str ten with multiple attacks plus stunning it, more efficient. Plus just don't charge the one squad with a libby and your good.

Really, that is surprising considering how good it actually is. I see it all the time because its another way to bump there strength. Why even have a hammer when you can have S8 I6 attacks?

Exactly what I was advocating, "don't charge the one squad with a libby".

J Mac wrote:I very strongly discourage people charging their dreads into a squad with halberds and a librarian. Halberds give them initiative and the librarian with might of titan to give them 2D6 penetration which will wreck your face, especially after they get 3 or 4 hammerhands off.

If you get the charge on the Librarian squad then you have a free turn to swing on them. Might of titan can only be cast in the Librarians assault phase.

BA can be top tier... either full mech Rhino chasis, or mixed Mech (my preferred style). One list leans toward spam, while the other leans toward deathstars.

Heres my 1850 Mixed-Mech that works wonders, has only lost a couple times since I began using it:

HQ
---
Mephiston
Librarian - rage/shield

Elites
------
5x Assault Terms - 3x TH/SS, 2x LC
1x Priest - bare
Furioso Dread - Talons, melta, SB

Troops
-------
10x AM - 2x melta, PF
10x AM - 2x melta, PF

FA
---
Speeder - HF/MM
Speeder - HF/MM
Speeder - HF/MM

Heavy
-----
Stormraven - TLMM, TLAC, EA
Stormraven - TLMM, TLAC, EA

Total: 1850 pts

I have numberous reps using it and I love it... having two deathstars puts a lot of opponents on their heels when its on them turn 2

Dok wrote:

J Mac wrote:I very strongly discourage people charging their dreads into a squad with halberds and a librarian. Halberds give them initiative and the librarian with might of titan to give them 2D6 penetration which will wreck your face, especially after they get 3 or 4 hammerhands off.

If you get the charge on the Librarian squad then you have a free turn to swing on them. Might of titan can only be cast in the Librarians assault phase.

Hmmm... I never thought of that.

I do run something very similar to Zid's list just only difference is i exchange Meph for Sanguinor(becouse of GK's) and i run libby in TDA. I can say this hybrid mech is very capable.

However recently i tested this type of list that plays differently, however it’s very capable as well, specially against GK's that are the bane of most armies.

List:

HQ:
Lib TDA/SS (rage/shield)

E:
2TH/SS-3LC Termies ~ Dedicated T : LRR (ExA,MM)
Sang Priest (TDA)

T:
3x5ASM (MG/PF) ~ Dedicated T: TLLC RzB

F:
3xLS (Typhoon, HB)


H:
3x Vindie