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hey, quick question here, I can't remember if servitors in a BT army are bound by special rules, vows, etc. I don't think so, but not sure. For that matter, are servitors in any space marine army bound by the space marine rules, like 'they shall know no fear' etc?

They are Not bound by vows. Also, cenobyte servitors affect how veteran skills work in command and sword bretheren squads. I don't have my book in front of me, but I do recall that it's in the armory entry for them.

However, having a servitor in a unit Won't stop it from getting the righteous zeal consolidation.

Hmm, okay, so they're not bound by vows. I was wondering specifically about the Kill Them All rule, cause I was thinking of having a Techmarine with four gun servitors (yay for BTs and their old codex!!!) for some long-range fire support but that wouldn't be very nice if they had to always be testing to shoot anything other than the closest unit.

"Kill them all" does nothing in the current edition; no Ld Test is required for firing at non-closest units; so the rules amendment in the FAQ is slightly more poorly written(removing the reference to the name of the rule, that no longer exists, does not help telling you how the rest of the alteration to that rule works)

The "kill them all" -1 Ld; only occurs in 1 specific situation(when taking the test to fire on a unit other than the closest unit), so even if you had to take a Ld test to fire on a unit via their special rules, you would incur no penalty whether that unit was closer than any other units or not.

In Short Servitors ignore the "kill them all" rule just the same as any other squad.

Every other Special rule still works.

"Kill them all" minus Errata:
"If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule."

How is this rule not functional? You obviously have to take a leadership test at -1 to shoot anything other than the closest. There really are rules with a worse wording than this.

Jidmah is right we are still bound by kill them all.

Jidmah wrote:"Kill them all" minus Errata:
"If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule."

How is this rule not functional? You obviously have to take a leadership test at -1 to shoot anything other than the closest. There really are rules with a worse wording than this.

Because there is no Ld test to see if one can fire at a target unit farther than the Closest.

In the case of a unit's special rule that requires a Ld test to fire at them at all(which is generally you test and either can fire or simply must choose another target, or cannot fire at all) there is rarely a casewhere that test is only incurred when said special rule only comes into play when the unit with it is behind another unit.

There is no analog to Target priority for the "kill them all" rule to effect, therefore there is no functionality to the "kill them all" rule.

Actually the FAQ says that this works. There is no room for argument on this. There is a Ld test to see if we can fire at someone further away. It is called "Kill them all."

BTW here is the faq:

"Page 23 – Kill Them All
Ignore “and follow the normal rules for target priority in the
Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.” in the last sentence."

"Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not
to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)
A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning
that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target."

Page one and two respectively of the BT FAQ.

The Q&A is still meaningless you have no rules that tell you to priority test, and no rules telling you how to priority test.

Had the Q&A told you how to do it, it would work perfectly.

Had an errata or amendment in the FAQ added the target priority rules to "kill them all" it would work perfectly.

But as it stands, without the 4th edition rulebook, "kill them all" amends a rule that simply does not exist. In 5th edition, you never have to take priority tests, and the Q&A does not tell you how to take said tests; only that amending any such tests works perfectly and that BT units have to take the test to fire. So you have an answer where you have to take a test that doesn't exist; and with no rules telling you how, nor when, to take the test, and that you suffer a -1 Ld to the test.

It only works in the event that another unit has a special that forces a Ld test to fire at an enemy unit other than the closest unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Q&A is still meaningless you have no rules that tell you to priority test, and no rules telling you how to priority test.

Had the Q&A told you how to do it, it would work perfectly.

Had an errata or amendment in the FAQ added the target priority rules to "kill them all" it would work perfectly.

But as it stands, without the 4th edition rulebook, "kill them all" amends a rule that simply does not exist. In 5th edition, you never have to take priority tests, and the Q&A does not tell you how to take said tests; only that amending any such tests works perfectly and that BT units have to take the test to fire. So you have an answer where you have to take a test that doesn't exist; and with no rules telling you how, nor when, to take the test, and that you suffer a -1 Ld to the test.

It only works in the event that another unit has a special that forces a Ld test to fire at an enemy unit other than the closest unit.

This man is correct. RAW there's no target priority to modify anymore, and thus there's no drawbacks from "Kill them All!".

Did...did you even read what I posted? Do you want a link to the faq?
Here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620223a_Black_Templars_Version_1_1.pdf
Read it yourself I just copied and pasted it here.

You ignore the reference to target priority. It does not exist anymore.

Then all BT infantry, JI, and bikes must take a ld test at -1 if they want to shoot at an enemy unit that is not the closest. To say that the faq does not tell you how to take these tests is just wrong. It plainly says "that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target." That tells you how to do it. Pick target. is it closest? Yes ok. No? Ld at -1 or shoot closest.

Open the codex and look at the faq side by side and it should be pretty obvious how this works.

Akroma06 wrote:Did...did you even read what I posted? Do you want a link to the faq?
Here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620223a_Black_Templars_Version_1_1.pdf
Read it yourself I just copied and pasted it here.

You ignore the reference to target priority. It does not exist anymore.

Then all BT infantry, JI, and bikes must take a ld test at -1 if they want to shoot at an enemy unit that is not the closest. To say that the faq does not tell you how to take these tests is just wrong. It plainly says "that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target." That tells you how to do it. Pick target. is it closest? Yes ok. No? Ld at -1 or shoot closest.

Open the codex and look at the faq side by side and it should be pretty obvious how this works.

"If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule." Emphasis mine.

That test never occurs, as Target Priority no longer exists. As such, Templars have a negative modifier to Ld when taking a non-existant test.

How is there a non-existant test? They test to see if they can target any enemy unit other than the closest.
To say that that test never occurs would be cheating. You seem hung up on target priority. That was removed. The rule reads as Jidmah posted it. Look I would love to be rid of this rule but we aren't. It still is there. So you pick your target. Is it the closest? No then you have to test. If you fail it is the closest.

The target priority rule is removed in 5th edition, but because of the Kill Them All rule, BTs are still subject to a leadership test to target a unit other than the nearest, and not only that, they have a -1 modifier to their leadership. The question is, are servitors subject to this rule? I guess I also want to know, are they subject to No Pity, No Remorse, No Fear? At least we know they don't have Righteous Zeal. And with the space marine special rule And They Shall Know No Fear it's specified how units with servitors react. Now there it says that servitors are subject to it as long as their unit contains at least one space marine. So maybe it's the same way with BT special rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i.e., as long as the servitors (I'm thinking specifically of techmarine servitors, such as gun, combat, and technical servitors) have their techmarine with them, they are subject to No Pity, No Remorse, No Fear and Kill Them All, but if he were dead, then they wouldn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And with Vows, I'm guessing that servitors are not bound by the two that Neophytes are not bound by, since they are lower than Neophytes? But they are still bound by the other two.

Pretty much if it says all black templars except...a b and c then if servitors aren't included then they are affected. So yes they would be affected by "Kill them All."

"If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule."

I agree that the FAQ clearly says that the rule works "as written" however what happens if you fail the test? I don't see a rule in the 5th ed. rules or the black templar codex that says this.

Therefore "If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can put on blue fluffy pants. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule." There is no 'blue fluffy pants putting on' rule so I am not told how to do this and must therefore ignore it. Yay for GW FAQ's

Akroma06 wrote:How is there a non-existant test? They test to see if they can target any enemy unit other than the closest.
To say that that test never occurs would be cheating. You seem hung up on target priority. That was removed. The rule reads as Jidmah posted it. Look I would love to be rid of this rule but we aren't. It still is there. So you pick your target. Is it the closest? No then you have to test. If you fail it is the closest.

Kill them all says to modify the Ld for a test that never occurs. There is no test to modify therefore "kill them all" does nothing.

The Q&A says that BT units must make a non existent test(and do so with a -1Ld), no one knows(in 5th edition) what test to take or even what stat to use, nor what happens when that test is either failed or passed.

It seems that it's a Leadership test (since the -1 modifier) and it's a test to see if you can fire at any unit other than the closest, so if you pass you can fire at anyone, and if not, you have to fire at the closest unit. It would be nice if GW was a little clearer, but that's what I always assumed, it makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just going on the Target Priority rule from 4th ed, that's how it worked IIRC.

InnerLight wrote:They are Not bound by vows. Also, cenobyte servitors affect how veteran skills work in command and sword bretheren squads. I don't have my book in front of me, but I do recall that it's in the armory entry for them.

However, having a servitor in a unit Won't stop it from getting the righteous zeal consolidation.

Servitors do not affect a squad a chaplain has joined or leads, just one the chaplain is attached to. The BT codex makes the difference between the three very clear.

Akroma06 wrote:How is there a non-existant test? They test to see if they can target any enemy unit other than the closest.

"If a black templar infantry, jump infantry or bike shoots in the Shooting Phase, it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Vehicles are unaffected by this rule." (re-quoted for simplicity)

Look at it this way: When does the modifier kick in? Answer: "When testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest." When do we take such a test? Answer: Normally, never. The correct text for the scenario you're describing would be "yaddayadda Shooting Phase, it has to take a Leadership test at a -1 penalty. If this test is failed, the unit has to fire at the closest enemy unit."

Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not
to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)
A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning
that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target.

There is absolutely no way around this, other than explicitly and intentionally cheating your opponent. GW left this in when they threw half the FAQ away, they left the "Kill them all!" rule in, when they threw half the codex away. For a reason.

If you want to shoot at anything other than the closest unit you have to test on your leadership value minus one.

Claiming that you don't know what test to take is heavily abusing a slightly ambiguous wording. If you're at it you could also forget what value to test moral checks on, as you don't have a moral stat for you model. Hint: You don't get -1 to ld if you are supposed to test on strength.

Jidmah is exactly right. You take the test to see if you don't have to shoot at the nearest enemy. I would even assume that would me to not shoot at all.

I'm merely arguing RAW. No one I know, including myself, plays that Templars get away from the tests, but RAW we should.

Akroma06 wrote:Jidmah is exactly right. You take the test to see if you don't have to shoot at the nearest enemy. I would even assume that would me to not shoot at all.

This is exactly the issue. Is it "fail the test and you have to shoot at the nearest target" or "fail the test and you don't get to fire at all" and if it's the latter do you count as having shot or not for the purposes of charging/running? There is no rule in the BRB or the Templar codex. Whether the FAQ says to take the test or not is irrelevant as we don't know what the test is.

"...to see if it can target any other enemy unit other than the closest" (Codex: Black Templars, pg. 23). Targeting is picking the unit you want to shoot at, first step of shooting. If you pick a unit and can't shoot the unit you targeted(for example due to not being in LoS or locked in combat) you may repick your target, as described on pg. 16 of the BRB.

So "Kill them all!" by RAW requires you to:
1) Pick a target (BRB pg. 16)
2) Test on leadership -1 to see if you are allowed to pick that target (BT FAQ/Codex: BT pg. 23)
3) If you are allowed to target that unit, check LoS(BRB pg. 23)
4) Check whether the unit is locked in combat (BRB pg. 40)
5) If if any of 2), 3) or 4) failed, pick a new target until you found one you are allowed to shoot. (BRB pg. 16)
6) Pick models shooting, roll to hit etc.

You are completely making that up, just so "kill them all" works.

There is no stat to test on, just a statement that they must take a test, and suffer a -1 Ld to said test.

There is no rules that actually ever tell you any test is needed to be taken(just that when you are testing you need to take a -1 to your Ld).

There are no rules telling you what happens when you fail that test.

"Kill them all" is meaningless and does nothing, RAW.

Also you seem to be under the assumption that I play BT, I do not; but they are opponents of mine in some tourneys, and I do not require any kind of use of "kill them all" unless the TO makes up some rules to go with it(usually I get it removed for the BT player for the rest of the tourney, since there are no rules for it).

Jidmah wrote:
5) If if any of 2), 3) or 4) failed, pick a new target until you found one you are allowed to shoot. (BRB pg. 16)

This is where it breaks. If I fail my roll (am I rolling Ld?) do I get to pick another unit and roll Ld again until I find one I can shoot at? Do I immediately change my target to the closest? Can I choose not to fire (could be a gets hot weapon or blast that might deviate to an unwanted area)? If I don't fire do I count as having shot that turn? So much of this is not covered in the rules that the "Kill them all" special rule is unplayable without having an older edition of the rulebook handy.

And pulling out the 4th Edition rulebook to play your special rule means you are not playing 5th edition.

The whole "Play it like the past edition rules" was why I rage-quit in 4th; GW actually told us some of the rules-holes should be played like in 3rd(and led to the ability to have a SM Tac-sgt on a Bike, in a rhino with his infantry squad).

We are playing 5th edition, 4th edition rules are not applicable. There is no test ever required to shoot at a target beyond the closest, there is no bit in "kill them all" to explain when, what, or how to test, there is no rules telling us what happens when the test is failed. "Kill them all" does nothing, and does not work Q&A be damned.

Wraithlords can't see either I guess. And Mawlocks can't deep strike on an enemy unit since they "can't be placed in the table."
I'm fault certain if you tried pulling that RAW BS you opponent you pack up and leave. To say the BT don't gave to take the test is clearly an abuse of the rules. To say otherwise is baffling.

Pen≥Sword wrote:And Mawlocks can't deep strike on an enemy unit since they "can't be placed in the table."

Read the Tyranid FAQ.