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Pen≥Sword wrote:To say the BT don't gave to take the test is clearly an abuse of the rules. To say otherwise is baffling.

Please tell me what test they have to take and what page number I can find it on (without pulling out a 4th edition rulebook). Requiring that BT take a test to target an enemy other than the closest only raises more rules questions which have been highlighted above.

Well considering the -1 ld it seems obvious.... but I suppose if it has to be explicitly stated there's no helping. Didn't know they 'fixed' the Mawlock wording, but I suppose Wraithlords/guard still can't draw LoS according to RAW.

I'll continue to play rules as intended.

Pen≥Sword wrote:Well considering the -1 ld it seems obvious....

It does until you consider what happens when you fail the Ld test. Do you not get to shoot for the round or do you pick a new target? If you pick a new target does it have to be the nearest or can you pick a different far unit and roll Ld again? If you don't shoot for the round do you count as having shot or can you run or charge (assuming Rapid Fire or the like)? Also is there any exception to the target priority test if the farther target is "larger" than the closer one? These are the questions which would be answered in the rules for target priority checks but are left un-answered as the check is non existent.

zeshin wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:Well considering the -1 ld it seems obvious....

It does until you consider what happens when you fail the Ld test. Do you not get to shoot for the round or do you pick a new target? If you pick a new target does it have to be the nearest or can you pick a different far unit and roll Ld again? If you don't shoot for the round do you count as having shot or can you run or charge (assuming Rapid Fire or the like)? Also is there any exception to the target priority test if the farther target is "larger" than the closer one? These are the questions which would be answered in the rules for target priority checks but are left un-answered as the check is non existent.

You would:

1) Declare the unit is shooting
2) Roll a Leadership test with -1 modifier
3) If failed, the only valid target is the closest one, so all shots must go against that unit
4) If passed, pick any valid target and proceed as normal

1) Declare the unit is shooting

OK

2) Roll a Leadership test with -1 modifier

Relying on a logical extrapolation, OK.

3) If failed, the only valid target is the closest one, so all shots must go against that unit

Now we need a page number reference. This is simply made up.
Also does this extend to monstrous creatures or vehicles as targets, or can I choose to shoot a tank/Carnifex over a squad of infantry?

zeshin wrote:Now we need a page number reference. This is simply made up.
Also does this extend to monstrous creatures or vehicles as targets, or can I choose to shoot a tank/Carnifex over a squad of infantry?

page 23 of BT codex:
"it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest."
BT FAQ:
Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not
to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)
A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning
that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target.


So, no, it is not simply made up. This is what the rules tell you to do. And, no, you cannot choose to shoot MCs/Vehicles over infantry. You simply roll to see if you are going to have to shoot at the nearest target.

Grakmar wrote:

zeshin wrote:Now we need a page number reference. This is simply made up.
Also does this extend to monstrous creatures or vehicles as targets, or can I choose to shoot a tank/Carnifex over a squad of infantry?

page 23 of BT codex:
"it suffers a -1 modifier to its Leadership when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest."
BT FAQ:
Q. Does the Kill them All! rule mean that I have to test not
to fire at the closest enemy? (p23)
A. Yes, that rule still works perfectly as written, meaning
that Black Templar infantry, jump infantry and bikes must
test (with a -1 Ld modifier!) in order not to shoot at the
closest target.


So, no, it is not simply made up. This is what the rules tell you to do. And, no, you cannot choose to shoot MCs/Vehicles over infantry. You simply roll to see if you are going to have to shoot at the nearest target.

I choose to shoot at a unit other than the closest and I suffer a -1 penalty to me Ld. Now if I fail nothing says what to do. Can I pick a different unit other than the closest (and therefore incur the -1 Ld)? Do I get to shoot at the closest unit even though I had declared a different target or do I not get to shoot at all (and count as having shot perhaps as well)? This "rule" is incomplete. Also if I'm being forced to use a 4th edition rule why wouldn't I get to shoot at large targets over closer small targets?

"in order not to shoot at the nearest target" is your reward for passing.

Extremely simply inversion of that statement tels you what youmust do if you fail:

"shoot at the nearest target"

nosferatu1001 wrote:"in order not to shoot at the nearest target" is your reward for passing.

Extremely simply inversion of that statement tels you what youmust do if you fail:

"shoot at the nearest target"

So after declaring a target and finding that I cannot shoot at said target I get to choose a new target (the nearest)? That's new. The rule is triggered by attempting to shoot at a target other than the closest. That does not mean that I have to shoot at the closest target if I fail. If I choose a target which is out of range I would not get to choose a different target.

No you would decalre that you are going to shoot with that unit. You haven't picked a target yet. At that point you would take a Ld test. If you pass you can declare any normal target as what you are shooting at. If you fail you shoot at the nearest enemy.

Zeshin - you declare youre shooting. At this point you have a rule telling you to take, and pass, a leadershup test if you want to shoot at a unit other than the closest one.

You take the test - pass, you choose what you want to target

Fail - you must target the closest enemy unit.

Your "trigger" is incorrect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Zeshin - you declare youre shooting. At this point you have a rule telling you to take, and pass, a leadershup test if you want to shoot at a unit other than the closest one.

You take the test - pass, you choose what you want to target

Fail - you must target the closest enemy unit.

Your "trigger" is incorrect.

So you don't pick a target but instead say "I feel like shooting at something that just happens to not be the closest" and make a roll? Not buying it. Also what if there are two equidistant units to shoot at (one will obviously be a bit closer) how do you know if you are to make a roll or not?

And what about the large targets and the ability to shoot them rather than infantry? Is that simply gone even though I must adhere to the rest of the rule?

The safest way would be to roll after you declare that that unit will be firing. This would be before you declare the target. If you pass then pick your target as normal. If not then find out which one is closest and you have been considered to have been forced to select that squad as your target.

I have BTs and thems just the breaks. There has been a time or 2 where there is a unit in front of one of mine that I don't want to shoot since I have a ML that I want to pop a rhino with and am going to assault the enemy unit with another of mine anyway. Fail the LD and oh well. Sometimes it just happens.

Zeshin - i suggest you reread your rulebook, and notice you do exactly that - you NOMINTE a unit as shooting, and then you declare their target

If youre skipping the first step, no wonder you're seeing problems that dont exist

nosferatu1001 wrote:Zeshin - i suggest you reread your rulebook, and notice you do exactly that - you NOMINTE a unit as shooting, and then you declare their target

If youre skipping the first step, no wonder you're seeing problems that dont exist

Not skipping any steps, I just don't see how you determine if you are shooting at a unit which is not the closest without declaring a target.

So RAW doesn't really work without some interpretation and RAI (I'm assuming GW wanted to keep target priority for BT) assume that you have a 4th edition rulebook, or you get screwed on things like shooting at Vehicles/Monstrous Creatures.

No nos is right. You have to declare that a unit is firing. At that point you take a Ld test at -1. If you fail you shoot at the closest. That is automatically your declared target. If you pass you declare a target is normal.

Zeshin - as above. Yes, you are indeed ignoring the fundamentals of how shooting works, and getting confused because of that.

You declare the unit is shooting. Now, normally you would then declare your target - but you are told that you have to pass a Ld test at -1 if you want to shoot at a target that isnt the closest

So, you cannot select a target yet - because you dont know if you are allowed to select a target othetr than the closest. So, when you take the Ld test, that tells you what you can do.

You;re making up non-existent issues with a rule by ignoring basic steps in the shooting process.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Zeshin - as above. Yes, you are indeed ignoring the fundamentals of how shooting works, and getting confused because of that.

You declare the unit is shooting. Now, normally you would then declare your target - but you are told that you have to pass a Ld test at -1 if you want to shoot at a target that isnt the closest

So, you cannot select a target yet - because you dont know if you are allowed to select a target othetr than the closest. So, when you take the Ld test, that tells you what you can do.

You;re making up non-existent issues with a rule by ignoring basic steps in the shooting process.

You are incorrect as far as "what I am doing".

Here is a question (which I have already asked, and been ignored like several other points I have made), If there are two different units which appear equidistant from the firing unit what do you do?

Your question is irrelevant, if you'd bothered to actually work through what we've said - your timing is off

You declare a BT unit is shooting

immediately you must make a Ld check at -1 - this is BEFORE you declare a target.

If you pass - well, you get to choose who you target
If you fail - you dont get to choose who you target

You're still misssing a step, and believe that the rule only kicks in when you get to target a unit. It doesnt, it kicks in before then.

Edit: oh, and all of your other "problems" are resolved if, again, you simply go through the basic shooting process, which you dont seem to understnad. If you dont want to fire a weapon - you dont have to, you declare which models are shooting after you find out if you've passed the test. And so on. Your ignorance of the shooting rules doesnt mean this BT rule has problems, it doesnt

Nevermind, mis-read the quote. The faq says to remove the part about target priority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pen≥Sword wrote:Well considering the -1 ld it seems obvious.... but I suppose if it has to be explicitly stated there's no helping. Didn't know they 'fixed' the Mawlock wording, but I suppose Wraithlords/guard still can't draw LoS according to RAW.

I'll continue to play rules as intended.

Why can't Wraithlords/guard draw LOS, they can still see, they just see differently. As such would this mean they would not be affected by dark eldar clone thing ability (I forget what its called)?

Happyjew wrote:
Why can't Wraithlords/guard draw LOS, they can still see, they just see differently. As such would this mean they would not be affected by dark eldar clone thing ability (I forget what its called)?

They don't have eyes, and the BRB tells you to draw LOS from a model's eyes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
immediately you must make a Ld check at -1 - this is BEFORE you declare a target.

Where is this step outlined? It's not and I will therefore continue to play the rules that actually exist. I'm not completely getting shooting wrong, I am simply disagreeing with you over one poorly written holdover from a 4th edition rule.

Its a consequence of the rule, oddly enough.

Youre not getting it completely wrong, you just seem to think the first thing you do when shooting is to select a target. It isnt, and because you are ignoring parts of rules youre making non-existent issues up.

zeshin, you are willfully ignoring that failing to pick a valid target due to "Kill them all!" is exactly the same as failing to pick a valid target due to LoS or the target being locked in combat.

If two units are at the same distance, both of them are the closest and you would not have to test to shoot either.

Jidmah wrote:If two units are at the same distance, both of them are the closest and you would not have to test to shoot either.

What I was asking with this particular point was "if the units appear equidistant what do you do?" as there is no rule that says you must always take a test to 'shoot at all' but only take a test in order to 'shoot at a unit other than the closest'.

And shooting requires you to target the unit, meaning you take the test before you target any unit.

if you pass it, you can target any unit you like. If you fail it you msut target the closest - and therfore must measure to determine which is the closest.

Nos did say it very clearly how to deal with that situation.
You have a normal shooting procedure:

1. Nominate shooting unit (more precise: also declare wich weapons of the nominated unit will actually shoot)
2. Pick a target
3. Check LOS
-> from that on the shooting process of the nominated unit cannot be restarted.
4. Check range
5. resolve the possible shooting including to hit/to wound rolls, saving throws and removing casualties.
6. nominate another shooting unit
.
.

and so on

now the "kill them all" rule simply means, that a Black Templar player cannot pick his targets freely by default. He has to pass a LD test with -1 each time in order to do so.

So step 2 is replaced by: measure ranges between you and all enemy units, then pick the unit closest to your shooting unit UNLESS you pass your LD test with -1.

So you measure range in step 2, then measure range in step 4?

You would measure twice essentially one to see if it is the closest or not (99% of the time it will be obvious) and then again to check range for the weapons that were declared to be being fired.