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Is it the front point, or is it the largerdoors in the back.

Also where would you measure from? The hull of the vehicle or the actuall point?

I am only interested in offcial sources on the ( FAQs, codex ect) not how it has been in previous additions.

Fire point is the topside doors.

Can't answer the others without my BGB.

Where does it state that the top side doors are the firepoints? it never shows, all I have found is the "top hatch" description.

The small doors ( or hatched) ont eh front of the rhino, are a hatch on the top of a rhino therefore a "top hatch"

It is the large doors on the back. You also would measure from this point itself not the hull. This was done with the IG Chimera about a month (I think) ago.

What actually says it is the doors on the back? What rule set?

5th edition Codex: Space Marines, pg 76. See "fire points."

It references the "top hatch" I would state that the front point on the rhino is a hatch.

jacetms87 wrote:It references the "top hatch" I would state that the front point on the rhino is a hatch.

I see only one top hatch, where the Ultramarines chapter symbol is. The "front point" you are referring to where the gold skull & wings emblem is clearly NOT a hatch due to the fact that there are window slits for the driver to see out of.

The two points for the Crew compartment at the front are not, RAW, "the top hatch" - they are cupolas.

I am not talking about the window slits, I am speaking as to the hatch on top of the vehicile at the front. Next to the storm bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The two points for the Crew compartment at the front are not, RAW, "the top hatch" - they are cupolas.

Where are they referenced as such ( just for my own information) if they are listed as such in the rule book then that is how it is.

Well I did a little search here on Dakka and found this thread...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/349688.page#2494175
While rereading it somebody posted this mr linky here.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=600002&pIndex=1&aId=2400001a&multiPageMode=true&start=2
Now granted that this isn't the BRB or an FAQ but it is written by GW and clearly explains that the hatch is the part with the big doors. The wolf logo on their picture the ultrasmurf U on ours.

Also as nos said those "hatches" as you are calling them are cupolas not hatches for the rhino.

The only place you can consistently fire out of is the large hatch. If you take an additional weapon both front cupola, which are part fo the crew compartment, are used.

So what games workshop publication reffers to them as cupolas? ( provided with a current in print publication reffering to them as such I will concede the point)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390423.page#3208846

Chapter Approved 2004.

Is that current? I mean it is from 2004

It's a picture of a Rhino. It is current in that it has never been updated with a different point being shown as the Fire Point. You should probably read through that thread.

IA2.

Also the definitions, especially when you consider that the rules are written in English-English, not American-English.

The 2 forward "hatches" in American-English are referred to as Cupolas in English-English, with only the 2 large rear doors as a "Hatch" in English-English.

This can be further evidenced via the models themselves; the Razorback has 0 Firing points, it does however retain the 2 forward Copulas(or "hatches").

Finally; the Rules use "hatch", singular, and the Rhinos large Hatch doors are the only "Hatch" that only appears on the Rhino itself(all other variant chassis have a Turret in that Hatches place).

There is nothing that has replaced it, so yes.

Ok, I know when I am wrong, thank you all for the information.

jacetms87 wrote:Ok, I know when I am wrong, thank you all for the information.

Don't feel too bad; this issue does come up around once/month or so.

Also my fellow Americans tend to get confused by the UK-English use of the word "hatch"; The front hatches(US-English term usage) on British vehicles are universally referred to as Cupolas, and almost never as Hatches(excepting maybe as an "access-hatch"; or where interaction with US troops have... Altered the vernacular).

I still think strict RAW you could make an argument, but I dont think it would be a good one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The two points for the Crew compartment at the front are not, RAW, "the top hatch" - they are cupolas.

For Clarity: the rhino has one cupola (Where the Storm bolter is) and one Hatch on the front, and one large hatch on the back.

If you buy a 2nd Storm Bolter then you have 2 cupolas on the front and a hatch on the back.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Also my fellow Americans tend to get confused by the UK-English use of the word "hatch";

We also get confused when we are told to open the bonnet to check the oil in the motor, and after we ask for a rag to wipe our hands with, we are told "there are several in the boot"!

DeathReaper wrote:For Clarity: the rhino has one cupola (Where the Storm bolter is) and one Hatch on the front, and one large hatch on the back.

The rhino only has the cupola on the front. The second circular space is not a hatch... it's just a round mounting point for a weapon or searchlight.

insaniak wrote:The rhino only has the cupola on the front. The second circular space is not a hatch... it's just a round mounting point for a weapon or searchlight.

then those hatch like doors are not there, and I am seeing things?

I was just talking about the front 'hatches' ... not the fire point.

To be a little clearer, on the top of the rhino are a large rectangular hatch, a single round cupola, and a round mounting point for a weapon or searchlight.

Actually both round openings are for the cupolas. From the last main rules FAQ:

Q: The rules for the arc of fire of pintle-mounted (or
bolt-on) weapons address those mounted on turrets
and those mounted directly on the hull. But what
about those mounted on smaller structures (like a
Rhino’s cupola) that look like they can rotate 360º,
even though they aren’t proper turrets? (p59)
A: Remember that the rule is: if it looks like you can
point the gun at it, then you can, even if it’s glued in
place’. The rest is just a set of guidelines about the arcs
of fire of weapons glued in place, and does not cover
all possible weapons mounting and vehicles. If the
structure the gun is pintle-mounted on is obviously
capable of rotating 360º, like in the case of a Rhino’s
cupola, then it should be treated as having a 360º arc
of fire. However, if you mount the same storm bolter
on a Razorback, even though it still can rotate 360º, it
won’t obviously be able to fire through the Razorback’s
main turret, and so it will have a ‘blind spot’. In the
same way, the shuriken catapult mounted under the
hull of a Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can
rotate 360º, but it does not look like it can be fired
through the main hull right behind it, so we normally
play that it can be fired roughly in the 180º to the
vehicle’s front, as an acceptable compromise.

Pertinent points highlighted red. Both those circular openings are for the rhino's cupolas (one is standard, the other can be taken as an add on), the side doors and rear ramp are access points (main rules pages 66 & 67) leaving the large, rectangular, top hatch as the sole firing point.

A Cupola is a gun turret, so the storm bolter turret is a cupola.

If you add a second storm bolter then, and only then, you have two cupolas.

If you only have 1 storm bolter, you have 1 cupola, and a small round hatch (That can be a cupola if you have a gun turret mounted there, if not its just an access hatch), and a large rectangle access hatch.

If you have the rhino modeled properly(to the design with no conversions) then you have a cupola on the right when it is driving and a plate on the left covering a hole. You can remove that plate and put another cupola there, or you can mount a searchlight/HK missile in the spot. Any way you slice it, however, it is not a hatch. The two are, of course, interchangeable so the cupola can be on the left.

Besides, something does not have to have a gun mounted on it to be considered a gun turret. If I take the machine gun off the top hatch of my humvee, it still is a gun turret, just a disarmed one. The cupola is a cupola always, even if it is disarmed.

-cgmckenzie

It's the big squarish hatch on the back with interlocking double doors. No way two Marines in Power Armour can shoot out of either of the cupola/hatch/round dealies in front of it.

Homer